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      06-17-2012, 10:18 PM   #41
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Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Okay, sorry for my bad english ... some german technical words are not easy to translate.

But someone, from which I know that he sometimes could see secret M-GmbH prototyps, told me that he has seen an unpainted F80 chassis and that this parts I posted would be made from black composite material.
Absolutely no need to apologize. I wish my German was 5% as good as your English. Perhaps you could translate some of those terms better, that would be quite useful for your points.

Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Those changes will be coming and are being tested.

They are making suspension bits out of CF and testing it now, and using more aluminum in areas that were once steel. The aramid/CF sandwich is lighter and stronger than steel and will be used in non-visible areas where necessary to lose weight and add rigidity.
Want to place any wagers? There is no way there will be composite suspension pieces in the next M3. It is already mostly forged aluminum. Not much weight left to be saved without composites.

Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
The 18 wheels are not even forged now so how can you say that they are light as they can be? Brakes will be larger and lighter and have a CF option.
Wheel design is more important than cast vs. forged. My only point was that larger wheels are generally heavier and the car is likely to have larger wheels. The brakes also, will not be CF. They may offer carbon ceramic which is not carbon fiber at all, but it would almost for sure be an option.

Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
The driveshaft/ prop shaft can lose weight and get stronger as can the half shafts. They are in the prototypes and other brands are already using this technology in less than super car price points (Even the M5/M6 are lighter than the one's they replaced)- the Rear diff was originally designed to be used with these components.
Rotating shafts are an ideal place to use composites. You save on weight and inertia. I would not be surprised to find this in the next car. However, I have no idea what you mean that the M5/M6 are lighter than the one they replaced? Do you have weight data on E60 M5 vs. F10 M5 drive shaft or axles? I also have no idea what you are trying to say about the diff.

Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
They are doing this and a lot more. I heard this from a top executive on more than one occasion. The price BMW is getting CF for is cheap compared to others- they are running the show now thanks in small part to the BMWi ramp up.

What will make it to the street- no one knows as they are still testing durability and wear on these components. Biggest concern with the CF is not it breaking but it forcing added stresses to other areas, computer modeling can only do so much.
OK, what did you hear. You directly contradict yourself here. You heard they ARE doing these things but then who knows what will actually make it. I am not debating BMW M R&D here.

Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
So your saying that $1200 is too much for weight savings? What if they were saving about $10k per engine? (just throwing that out there).
BMW is not about to throw away all of the engine cost savings by throwing it all at weight reduction. The next car must OVERALL be less COST than the existing one.

Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
If interested, you might want to look into how BMW is using the CF a bit more there is a lot out there on it. They are ramping up the launch of an entire brand based on CF so yes they are pushing that but the CF will be used across the board. But have said publicly many times that thanks to BMWi the BMW Group will have CF advantages- Board members have announced the next 7 using CF from the BMWi/SGL establishment as well as M saying it.
I am pretty familiar. Thanks though.

Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Costs are less than what you are estimating. They are not autoclaving and using a system that is not more labor intensive or energy intensive from a cost perspective. That is how they can do any of this at all. They built in Moses Lake for the cheap renewable energy (make the fiber usually high cost) then it is woven in Wackersdorf and molded at the foundry in Landshut. By not autoclaving they save a boat load of money.
I can provide references for their strive to get to $10/lb. Do you want to see that article?

Is the weave as nice as the weave on the visible components like the roof? No, but it is nearly as strong. Having seen this stuff in action it is impressive (see crappy iPhone image). The target of the i3 is 30k units per year (some mainstream media recently published 100k but that is BS I have the BMW info with 30k).

Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
While they have optimized the cuts for the BMWi models there is still "scrap" and that scrap can be then recycled into smaller items rather than be thrown away or reprocessed. So they look at multiple platforms per cut and use every last ounce they can. Stuff that would have not been used now has a purpose and is relatively cheap- (they do this with leather as well). F80 will be considered in these cuts and moldings- if the i3 doesn't sell then BMW will have a boat load of CF they already invested in so no harm in using it at that point.
You can not achieve a part as strong as an existing steel part in CF by using recycled non-oriented fiber technology. Chop fiber, random finer or recycled materials are WAY less strong and rigid than true woven multi-layer materials.

Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
The CF aramid sandwich on the CRT is an example of what they can do and what they will do- they had bigger plans than just the CRT but the board shot it down.
Probably due to cost

In short, I have no doubt whatsoever that the use of composites in general and CF and CSiC will be in the next car. We simply disagree on how much will be present and which parts will be so.
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
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| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |