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      10-05-2012, 02:34 PM   #142
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Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

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Originally Posted by formula M View Post


For years you have heralded the mighty horsepowaah!
But (once again) you prove you do not understand the importance of torque. I am almost certain you cannot abstractly read a dynograph/chart.. as the rate of acceleration in any vehicle, is directly tied to it's tq curve.

You cannot keep dismissing that & constantly remain ignorant of that fact. HP is only a static figure, it alone represent nothing!

Coincidentally, you have been embattled in this argument for 5+ years..(!!) & to constantly keep dismissing torque? Or to say it's nearly meaningless? Torque accounts for more of a cars characteristics, than horspepower does. It is the engine's ability to move mass (laymanistically). I know u can read a book, but HP is derived as a static figure of the actual work done at that moment... not about the ability to move that mass.. (ie: accelerate)

I know you keep your head into your sim software, but until you buy some premium stuff, that accounts for an artifical linear torque curve, then all u have is ur math, but no understanding. Do not dismiss the massive delta in available torque between the 1M & M3.

Around town (small tracks/streets), the 1M simply ownz the M3.!! Ironically, that is what is purpose is, the 1M's focus is handling. But there is a stark constrast in power delivery & performance between the 2. That is.. with 120hp difference.. it is only after 100mph (ubertracks/F1/nurb), that the long winded M3 get it's chance to outshine it's moAr focused sibling.

The deltas in the dynocharts tell the whole story, you can clearly see how much more grunt (ie: acceleration) is available just off idle on the N54, over the s65... lets not forget that the N54 is 1 liter smaller. If u don't understand any of this.. than compare the s54 (E46 M3) to the n54 (1M Coupe) and wrap ur head around torque please!

I shop torque, it tells much moAr of the story than any other engine statistic. Matter of fact, I am buying an M2 and I do not care what the HP figure is, as long as it close to 360ft-lbs of torque..!

MAX HORSPOWAAAHHH!! is marketing
Keep deluding yourself. Your are so far off it's barely worth a debate.

1. Power is inherently a dynamic concept, it is the rate of energy transfer. In no way is it "static figure". None of your touchy feely imprecise definitions above are correct or meaningful.
2. Crank torque is absolutely meaningless. It does not come into the equations for acceleration without gearing. Wheel torque is meaningful but torque proponents barely bother calculating it. You cannot "read" vehicle acceleration from a dyno curve. Show the actual equation/conversion then we will talk more about that.
3. It is always better to know a full curve rather than a single point. Either torque or hp along with rpm gives you the other. The complete information is there. If you need to stick to a single peak number hp is the one that will tell you very closely how fast the car will be. You can't say how fast it will be with the torque number, you just can't.
4. At any given speed if two cars weigh the same the one that produced the most power will out accelerate the other, PERIOD, INDISPUTABLE. This car that makes the most peak torque or the most instantaneous torque is utterly inconsequential. I know you probably can't handle the equations but this is from P = m x a x v.

The only way the 1M owns the M3 is when the M3 is driven improperly in the wrong gear. At the "wrong" rpm the M3 makes little torque which translates into little power. The 1M is kind of opposite. The 1Ms ability to produce good low rpm power does help is get off the line very quick, every bit as quick as the M3. Of course its lighter weight is very advantageous for handling and gives it an advantage on smaller tighter courses.

Overall the cars perform consistently with their (peak) power to weight ratio. Why, because that is the physics.

Until you understand the equations, the physics, make some spreadsheets, run some of your own simulations you just won't understand. It takes some work but you will be rewarded with a lot of insight when you do.
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