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      08-12-2011, 02:47 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Do you not think or realize the loss of that "soul" that may occur when you abandon N/A engines?
So strange. You act like BMW has some kind of choice when it comes to carbon emissions, fuel economy, etc. for their future cars. They don't. Which means if you want a powerful motor, and want to continue to sell cars globally, you must use some type of forced-injection.

As far as "soul" goes, have you driven the 2012 M5? I think if you did, it would change your mind about what makes a car's "soul"
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      08-12-2011, 05:19 PM   #156
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      08-12-2011, 06:16 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
So strange. You act like BMW has some kind of choice when it comes to carbon emissions, fuel economy, etc. for their future cars. They don't. Which means if you want a powerful motor, and want to continue to sell cars globally, you must use some type of forced-injection.

As far as "soul" goes, have you driven the 2012 M5? I think if you did, it would change your mind about what makes a car's "soul"
We have had a ton of discussions on the boards around the fact that FI being needed for better fuel economy is something that BMW marketing has sold you on, Porsche seems to have no issues with emissions and gas mileage on their 911s without have to go FI.

BMW is doing it to cut costs and increase profits.

As far as the ///M5, no I have not, so I cannot comment one way or the other. But big power, does not mean "soul". Lots of cars have big power, so nothing special about an car with big power.

Cheers,
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      08-12-2011, 06:26 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
For the new M3 we are looking at fuel savings of about 20-30%.

Do not understimate the prowness of BMW engineers.
Every option for each car begins in a brainstorming session where ideas are put down on paper. So yes BMW have developed a prototype V6 but when evaluated we found it did not suit the intentions of the car.

There are lots of other engines that you do not know about by our engine development unit. right from a two cylinder upwards to a 9.0 64-valve V16 which was designed for Rolls-Royce and will never see the light of day in any production car.

What you have to be careful of is that unorthodox choices for BMW such as FWD and V6's are being evaluated because one day we could run out of options with increasing legislation. So we have to adapt these choices to BMW thinking without compromising on what makes a BMW great.
Fair enough, but since when does legislation on emissions and mpg mean you have to build a FWD or a V6 to meet those standards?

Also, you guys sell plenty of cars that you can use to get fleet averages up without neutering the ///M line. BMW sells FI as the only solution to address building a car with power and low emissions/higher mpg.......but Porsche seems to achieve things with their 911s that says otherwise. Perhaps FI does not belong in a 3 or 1 series ///M variant......I doubt that the genius that is the ///M division could not come up with a solution. This is where cost cutting comes in. BMW is making record profits, yet FI is the lazy option to me.

Hey, if you build a FI car that revs to 8k with the throttle response of the S65 or S54, I will buy her. You build a car that revs to 7k or so without that throttle response, I won't, because I had one of those already. Claiming a car is high-revving because its high revving for a FI engine, doesn't make it a high-revving engine.

Either way, I do appreciate you posting and do look forward to seeing the F3x, and won't pass final judgement till I driver her

Cheers,
e46e92
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      08-12-2011, 06:31 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
... the only advantage of the inline-6 (vs the V6) was that it was the cheapest alternative and because of this it was chosen! And for the public they would tell us it was because of tradition.
But tradition of BMW M was innovative engines ... and really innovative was for me only the V6 because it was really compact with great packaging advantages for better handling.

And don't forget that BMW does not allow M-GmbH to develop a complete new engine ... its simply too costly!
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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
We have had a ton of discussions on the boards around the fact that FI being needed for better fuel economy is something that BMW marketing has sold you on, Porsche seems to have no issues with emissions and gas mileage on their 911s without have to go FI.

BMW is doing it to cut costs and increase profits.
+1 (Do you appove of my edit Uli?)

+1

We've discussed it quite a lot before. Decisions at M are based as more on cost cutting as anything else. Sure they will probably do what it takes to keep holding their crown in the sports coupe and sedan segments but they are trying to save money more than anything. Can't really blame them for that. There is nothing essentially wrong with find the best solution per dollar. Just don't drink the M kool aid and think they are evolved from racing, race inspired, performance at any cost, etc., etc. Sure there is some truth there but it is not the dominant factor driving the key changes we see in M cars.
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      08-12-2011, 07:01 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
...Porsche seems to have no issues with emissions and gas mileage on their 911s without have to go FI.
No issues?

http://www.autoobserver.com//2010/03...facturers.html

So basically instead of going with turbo charging (which of course they do, along with hybrids), Porsche just asks the EPA for a break from efficiency standards.
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      08-12-2011, 08:10 PM   #161
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If BMW is so trying to improve their fleet average, why don't we get cars like 120d, 320d? It is all marketing bullshit. Going turbo, using same/similar engine with different size turbos are cheaper, and that's the end of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Fair enough, but since when does legislation on emissions and mpg mean you have to build a FWD or a V6 to meet those standards?

Also, you guys sell plenty of cars that you can use to get fleet averages up without neutering the ///M line. BMW sells FI as the only solution to address building a car with power and low emissions/higher mpg.......but Porsche seems to achieve things with their 911s that says otherwise. Perhaps FI does not belong in a 3 or 1 series ///M variant......I doubt that the genius that is the ///M division could not come up with a solution. This is where cost cutting comes in. BMW is making record profits, yet FI is the lazy option to me.

Hey, if you build a FI car that revs to 8k with the throttle response of the S65 or S54, I will buy her. You build a car that revs to 7k or so without that throttle response, I won't, because I had one of those already. Claiming a car is high-revving because its high revving for a FI engine, doesn't make it a high-revving engine.

Either way, I do appreciate you posting and do look forward to seeing the F3x, and won't pass final judgement till I driver her

Cheers,
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      08-12-2011, 08:12 PM   #162
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Well, need to be fair here. How can you expect 42mpg average fleet mileage (by 2016) from a sports car manufacturer?

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Originally Posted by SamS View Post
No issues?

http://www.autoobserver.com//2010/03...facturers.html

So basically instead of going with turbo charging (which of course they do, along with hybrids), Porsche just asks the EPA for a break from efficiency standards.
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      08-13-2011, 01:01 AM   #163
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1) most folks will buy the new M3, becuse they just want to be seen in the latest and greatest.
2) I'm getting a P-car next...
and the porsche is better? They sold out way before BMW M did. Look at the 993 and then look at the 996, 997... The damn 993 turbo is still pretty expensive if you want to pick one up. That should tell you something. Panamera? I'd rather drive a pontiac aztec. AFA interior, before I bought my Exige, I drove a Cayman S and z4 M coupe. The porsche was the worst interior, IMO. terrible design, thin steering wheel, narrow seats (and I'm 5'11/145lbs!) In fact, the only thing I liked about that car was the transmission whine. My exige's interior is better than the Porsche. Way better.

I do wish the 1M had the E46s 3.2L motor...S54?. That would have been awesome and would have saved BMW even more money than developing the I6 TT, is my guess.
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      08-13-2011, 01:42 AM   #164
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After the N54/N55 HPFP fiasco I will never buy a FI car from BMW. Period. My wife and I are currently looking at an X5 diesel and X3 base model. Why take the risk to be stranded somewhere?
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      08-13-2011, 04:13 AM   #165
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If BMW took the time to design an I6 along the lines of the old RB26DETT motor for the new M3 I think most people will be quite happy indeed... Tons of power, 9000rpm redline and all that was from just 2.6L

If on the other hand they are planning to just upgrade the N54/55 motors and call it a 'high-revving' engine then I will lose all respect for the M brand!
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      08-13-2011, 09:20 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
After the N54/N55 HPFP fiasco I will never buy a FI car from BMW. Period. My wife and I are currently looking at an X5 diesel and X3 base model. Why take the risk to be stranded somewhere?
Not to be a Debbie Downer but FYI, if you are trying to avoid a car with the HPFP, you will have to skip the X5d.

Cheers,
e46e92
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      08-13-2011, 09:53 AM   #167
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      08-13-2011, 03:28 PM   #168
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Eventhough I like I6 more than anyother engine, for this M3 F3X, I would still have prefered the V6 than the N55 based I6. Of course an all new for M3 specially developped I6 would be the best thing, but it is even less realistic than BMW M building an M1 successor. All I can say, the "S55" better be highly moddified in order to have redline at 8.000 RPM and be M3 worthy.
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      08-13-2011, 06:35 PM   #169
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http://www.autoobserver.com//2010/03...facturers.html

Actually this shows why VAG are driving into trouble especially for their high end sport brands.
With the new M5 for example their is a clear observation in regarding fuel consumption compared to the E60. I used to have a Sedan before I got the Touring so I am seeing a considerable rise in the reduction of fuel consumption compared to both my current E61 and previous E60. Of course the M5 is not just about efficiency it also gets you from Munich - Frankfurt in rocketship-like effortless ease.
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      08-13-2011, 08:22 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
http://www.autoobserver.com//2010/03...facturers.html

Actually this shows why VAG are driving into trouble especially for their high end sport brands.
With the new M5 for example their is a clear observation in regarding fuel consumption compared to the E60. I used to have a Sedan before I got the Touring so I am seeing a considerable rise in the reduction of fuel consumption compared to both my current E61 and previous E60. Of course the M5 is not just about efficiency it also gets you from Munich - Frankfurt in rocketship-like effortless ease.
I think the point some of us are trying to make is that with the rest of the series production cars made by BMW, if the rest of the fleet was compliant, the ///M division can afford to have the numbers that current 911s have as far as efficiency and still not bring BMWs fleet average down.

Porsche doesn't have a lineup like BMWs with a bunch of less expensive cars that can focus more on efficiency vs. performance.

Cheers,
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      08-13-2011, 08:38 PM   #171
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Shattered

I really hope the m3 won't have a tri turbo I'm the biggest m3 fan but this love Is starting to fade away with the latest model also don't think 450 hp is near enough anything under 500 hp is fail if u ask me
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      08-14-2011, 12:01 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
For the new M3 we are looking at fuel savings of about 20-30%.

Do not understimate the prowness of BMW engineers.
Every option for each car begins in a brainstorming session where ideas are put down on paper. So yes BMW have developed a prototype V6 but when evaluated we found it did not suit the intentions of the car.

There are lots of other engines that you do not know about by our engine development unit. right from a two cylinder upwards to a 9.0 64-valve V16 which was designed for Rolls-Royce and will never see the light of day in any production car.
What you have to be careful of is that unorthodox choices for BMW such as FWD and V6's are being evaluated because one day we could run out of options with increasing legislation. So we have to adapt these choices to BMW thinking without compromising on what makes a BMW great.
I believe Rowan Atkinson asked BMW to put that in a Roller in his new film


Also, wouldn't using a V6 be out due to the inherent imbalances of a V6 (needing balnce shafts)? Especially a 3.3 liter.
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      08-14-2011, 04:11 AM   #173
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I posted info on this engine 2 years ago, and not a word...
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Last edited by red-sauerkraut; 08-14-2011 at 06:14 AM.
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      08-14-2011, 05:43 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by shay2nak View Post

I do wish the 1M had the E46s 3.2L motor...S54?. That would have been awesome and would have saved BMW even more money than developing the I6 TT, is my guess.
From other threads, the S54 was deemed too heavy for the 1M.
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      08-14-2011, 07:55 AM   #175
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three turbos, ahhh!

With the HFP failure rates on existing architecture, I'll welcome to see how this one shakes out...
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      08-14-2011, 08:00 AM   #176
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three turbos, ahhh!

With the HFP failure rates on existing architecture, I'll welcome to see how this one shakes out...
Judging from the way my car was shaking when the HPFP failed on me, I'd say rather violently! ;-)
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