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      03-13-2012, 05:46 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by aajami View Post
I chose my words carefully, Levi There's an ironic subtlety to the sarcasm that is perhaps lost in translation.
I got it now.
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      03-13-2012, 06:08 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by aajami View Post
I read a lot of people bickering about what the badge will say (and I've certainly added my voice to those calls in the past), but no one seems to mind the real, physical implication of all of this: the inevitable increase in price that the F32 and F82 will get over the F30 and F80.
True, although, as I am sure you know, it is been this way from the very beginning; each successive generation comes with a substantial price increase over the outgoing model. Of course, this happens with all cars - not just BMWs, not just Ms, not just M3s. Having said that, we have seen recently with the F10 5 series that sometimes that trend gets bucked. The new 3 series also sees only a very small increase from the E90, though the new "lines" and the fact that you cannot get a base car with a lot of the options they include make that something of a technicality.

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One of the primary motivating factors for BMW to split up the 3-series into two separate models is to insert a little market segmentation into the mix. It's not the introduction of the M Performance models that make the M4 less attainable -- it's the introduction of what is intended to be perceived as an upmarket model. After all, everyone knows that 4 is more than 3, right?
I completely agree, aa. At the same time, they are only doing what Mercedes has done long ago (though they now appear to be reverting), and Audi has done more recently.

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The M Performance models simply become the consolation prize for those that could have made their finances work for a previous generation M car, but now have to settle for something they can afford given that the market segment they used to be in has moved up a notch or two.
I somewhat agree, but at the same time I would say that anyone who is planning ahead for a next generation car - whatever car - should figure 10% to 15% more than today's price to be safe. It's just good sense.
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      03-13-2012, 06:10 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
Right on.

The name doesn't hit the apex perfectly. The design and execution do.
I would say its the driver. Hans Stuck will decimate all of us in our M3s, while driving a Fiat MPV. Car makes it much more fun and rewarding though!
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      03-13-2012, 06:16 PM   #92
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What.


Still a very good looking car - this ^
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      03-13-2012, 07:08 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

I completely agree, aa. At the same time, they are only doing what Mercedes has done long ago (though they now appear to be reverting), and Audi has done more recently.
On that note, I got a chance to preview the W205 generation of C-Class cars over the weekend. They're not due for another 2-3 years, but the design is a complete 180 from the current gen. Very interesting segmentation choices that MB is considering too. I'll PM you with more details shortly.
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      03-13-2012, 07:45 PM   #94
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We will surprise you with this new car.

I like that statement.
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      03-13-2012, 09:25 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
Seriously? If the successor to the E92 M3 is outstanding in all avenues of performance, but is renamed to "M4", you would no longer consider it due to the name alone?
Damn right I wont consider it! Ive dreamed of owning an "M3 coupe" all my life even though there are better cars out there in my budgeted price bracket. So yes, I want the M3 partly because of the performance, but also because it is a part of automotive history. My plan is to keep the M3 as a hobby car long-term and change my second car every few years, so yeah the car I want to keep long term has to have some historic significance behind it and the M4 just wont. I frankly dont care about what other car guys or non-car guys think about my car...but "I" wouldnt think much of a BMW M4 compared to an M3 and that does matter.

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I understand the heritage of the M3 name and how the designations for M cars are derived, but I also understand why BMW would like to differentiate the moniker between 4 door and 2 door models.
Other than to up the price of the much-desired mid-size coupe M car (as Audi has successfully proven), I dont understand the need to differentiate. Any other reasons?
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      03-13-2012, 09:29 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
On that note, I got a chance to preview the W205 generation of C-Class cars over the weekend. They're not due for another 2-3 years, but the design is a complete 180 from the current gen. Very interesting segmentation choices that MB is considering too. I'll PM you with more details shortly.
WOW! How the hell did you get your hands on a W205??
Watcha mean its a complete 180 from the 204..you mean back to W203 design philosophy? Screw the M3/M4..I wanna know more about this LOLOL.
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      03-13-2012, 09:47 PM   #97
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You'll be staring at the badge whether you like it or not, because if you drive anything else, you'll be looking at my rear end!

hehe
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      03-13-2012, 10:17 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by jcnash View Post
WOW! How the hell did you get your hands on a W205??
Watcha mean its a complete 180 from the 204..you mean back to W203 design philosophy? Screw the M3/M4..I wanna know more about this LOLOL.
I was selected as part of this market research effort:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657358

I initially thought it would be for the C7 Corvette, but it wasn't. I can't say anything really, as I'm bound by an NDA, but it was a very interesting event. I spent 4 hours with the upcoming C-Class coupe, convertible, and sedan -- they look unlike anything Mercedes has released to date. They borrow heavily from the styling language of the new SL and SLK, but taken to the nth degree.
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      03-13-2012, 10:59 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
I was selected as part of this market research effort:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657358

I initially thought it would be for the C7 Corvette, but it wasn't. I can't say anything really, as I'm bound by an NDA, but it was a very interesting event. I spent 4 hours with the upcoming C-Class coupe, convertible, and sedan -- they look unlike anything Mercedes has released to date. They borrow heavily from the styling language of the new SL and SLK, but taken to the nth degree.


Fair enough...I guess NDA's are pretty standard with these type of events. The SL and SLK designs are in the top 5 on my universal list..so thats always good to hear.
Ive seen some renderings of the W205 floating around...but they tend to look more like the current CLS, which Im not a big fan of.
MB...if you read this...I would do one of these events for free! CONTACT ME!!!
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      03-13-2012, 11:51 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
Well, Porsche actually did come out with a 912:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_912

All of the 911 models after the first generation technically do have a different name like 993, 996 ,997, and the new 991 for example. For name recognition sake I suppose, the original model name has been kept though.
The 993, 997, etc.....are internal names really. They are not used much on literature so I kind of equate them to the body designations BMW uses (e30, e36, e46, e92,).....make sense?

Cheers,
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      03-13-2012, 11:55 PM   #101
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We will surprise you with this new car.

I like that statement.

Agreed

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      03-14-2012, 12:36 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
True, although, as I am sure you know, it is been this way from the very beginning; each successive generation comes with a substantial price increase over the outgoing model. Of course, this happens with all cars - not just BMWs, not just Ms, not just M3s. Having said that, we have seen recently with the F10 5 series that sometimes that trend gets bucked. The new 3 series also sees only a very small increase from the E90, though the new "lines" and the fact that you cannot get a base car with a lot of the options they include make that something of a technicality.
We are talking about the price gap between the sedan and coupe.

Not a simple % increase of new models.
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      03-14-2012, 08:21 AM   #103
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You're right - I sort of got on a little tangent there. That said, there's a gap between the 3 series coupe and sedan today, although I agree it is likely to increase. However, I don't think we'll see the same percentage difference we see between a 5 and 6 for example. What is the percentage difference in price between and A4 and A5, or between an S4 and S5? That's probably a good guage for what BMW will do.

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We are talking about the price gap between the sedan and coupe.

Not a simple % increase of new models.
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      03-14-2012, 10:56 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You're right - I sort of got on a little tangent there. That said, there's a gap between the 3 series coupe and sedan today, although I agree it is likely to increase. However, I don't think we'll see the same percentage difference we see between a 5 and 6 for example. What is the percentage difference in price between and A4 and A5, or between an S4 and S5? That's probably a good guage for what BMW will do.
The gap in MSRP between the A4 and A5 is around 17% for similar low-end models and up to 28% for similar high-end models, not far off from the 30% difference between the F10M and F12M. I think we're in for a rude surprise when the F32 and F82 pricing gets announced...
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      03-14-2012, 12:06 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by aajami View Post
The gap in MSRP between the A4 and A5 is around 17% for similar low-end models and up to 28% for similar high-end models, not far off from the 30% difference between the F10M and F12M. I think we're in for a rude surprise when the F32 and F82 pricing gets announced...
Around 17% sounds right to me. I will be very surprised if they go over a 20% difference for equivalently spec'd cars. I also highly doubt that the M4 will MSRP above $80k base price. So if we assume that is true then if we also figure that the new M3 only costs a little more than the outgoing one, that doesn't leave much room. If the sedan is, say $65k starting, that would put the coupe at around $75k. And even that seems fairly steep for an M4 especially when options will put it at $85k or even $90k. We are then getting into 911 territory, and although that's for a no-option base model with 350hp, the car is pretty darn quick.

(BTW F12 is the convertible, F13 is the coupe. It seems backwards, but that's how they did it this time around. )
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      03-14-2012, 12:42 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

(BTW F12 is the convertible, F13 is the coupe. It seems backwards, but that's how they did it this time around. )
Dammit, I knew that. F12 came out before the F13...
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      03-14-2012, 02:41 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
I always thought or looked at the 993, 996, 997, and 991 as internal designations like we do with the 3-Series and the E30, E36, E46 and E90, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
The 993, 997, etc.....are internal names really. They are not used much on literature so I kind of equate them to the body designations BMW uses (e30, e36, e46, e92,).....make sense?

Cheers,
e46e92
Yes, it does make sense that they are internal references, but I still look at them as the "true" model designations in Porsche's case when comparing them to other production models. For example, there was the 924, 928, 944, 959, and 968 that all used these designations as their model names. The 994 replaced the 924, and the 968 replaced the 944, but the newer models did not keep the "924" name.

That's why I believe a designation like "997" is the true model name, but they kept the "911" name for historical and marketing purposes.
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      03-14-2012, 03:02 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You're right - I sort of got on a little tangent there. That said, there's a gap between the 3 series coupe and sedan today, although I agree it is likely to increase. However, I don't think we'll see the same percentage difference we see between a 5 and 6 for example. What is the percentage difference in price between and A4 and A5, or between an S4 and S5? That's probably a good guage for what BMW will do.
That is exactly what I was saying in my original post. The 2011 M3 sedan and coupe gap was $3,000. I suspect that to nearly double. The current gap between the S4 and S5 is $6,600. I used the 5 and 6 serious as an extreme example. Their difference being over $20k and not exactly apples for apples. But it does shed light on where they make take the 4-series and M4 in the future. With the next generation 3-series chassis.
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      03-14-2012, 03:05 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by aajami View Post
The gap in MSRP between the A4 and A5 is around 17% for similar low-end models and up to 28% for similar high-end models, not far off from the 30% difference between the F10M and F12M. I think we're in for a rude surprise when the F32 and F82 pricing gets announced...
I am afraid so. Some of people that are downplaying the badge change, might be singing a different tune.
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      03-14-2012, 03:45 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcnash View Post
Damn right I wont consider it! Ive dreamed of owning an "M3 coupe" all my life even though there are better cars out there in my budgeted price bracket. So yes, I want the M3 partly because of the performance, but also because it is a part of automotive history. My plan is to keep the M3 as a hobby car long-term and change my second car every few years, so yeah the car I want to keep long term has to have some historic significance behind it and the M4 just wont. I frankly dont care about what other car guys or non-car guys think about my car...but "I" wouldnt think much of a BMW M4 compared to an M3 and that does matter.
To each their own, but that seems a little ridiculous to me.


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Originally Posted by jcnash View Post
Other than to up the price of the much-desired mid-size coupe M car (as Audi has successfully proven), I dont understand the need to differentiate. Any other reasons?
The coupes have already cost more than their sedan counterparts, but sure, this could lead to a larger price differential. That point aside, BMW has been hinting for quite a while that they would like all sedan, hatch, and touring models to be odd numbered, and all coupes, convertibles, roadsters, and 4-door coupes to be even numbered.
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