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      04-28-2012, 04:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlow98 View Post
It's called torque. The new m3 will have 400+ if its force fed. Makes the 'only' 450hp rather non consequential.
Torque makes a car go, HP makes a car go fast...
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      04-28-2012, 05:22 AM   #24
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if you're just looking for HP numbers, get an american muscle car.

The muscle cars have bigger engines (usually V8), burn more petrol, and come with impressive HP numbers.

big, bigger, biggest... that's american philosophy.

An M3 is more about refinement, balance, involvement... for connoisseurs.
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      04-28-2012, 07:34 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
if you're just looking for HP numbers, get an american muscle car.

The muscle cars have bigger engines (usually V8), burn more petrol, and come with impressive HP numbers.

big, bigger, biggest... that's american philosophy.

An M3 is more about refinement, balance, involvement... for connoisseurs.
Not all of us think that way haha. I think enough power on a light, balanced car is perfect. 600 horsepower is useless unless it can send you around a corner
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      04-28-2012, 08:00 AM   #26
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IMHO

1) The M3 has always been improved with every new generation.

2) From a handling point the comparison cars you listed are no where near the qualety and handling capabileties of the M3.

3) HP is not always the answer, unless your only objective is the track.

In the end I would wait until the new M3/M4 is out as you know there are several factors that decide who crosses the finish line first. The BMW Engineering Team is one of the best in the world others follow them so all I can say is wait and see.
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      04-28-2012, 08:13 AM   #27
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I don't have a fixed hp requirement for the next M3. The M3 isn't about hp bragging rights. If your goal is to be able to say you have more hp than the next guy, then get one of those American cars.
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      04-28-2012, 08:31 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine
I don't think the M3 really competes with the GT500 or the ZL1. Balance is what sells the M3 not power.
I agree. The ZL1 is a track-spec Camaro. So it is probably more on par with the M3 GTS, if anything. GT500 is also in its own class of straight line performance. I doubt it would keep up with the M3 (except maybe on a track with lots of straights). I don't think the M3 should ever surpass 500hp from the factory. If that were to happen, then the M5/6 might need to be pushed to 600hp at least.
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      04-28-2012, 08:42 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeBMW2 View Post
The word on the side streets is that the new M3 will weight about 150-200 lbs less than our current cars, potentially. You gotta remember, those three cars you listed are absolute pigs. While the M3 can't keep up with the ZL1 or GT500 in a straight line, or around the track, it walks all over the C63... So if the new car has similar power to the AMG, and our cars already make it look sloppy in the corners, just imagine how much better it would be then.

The GT500 and ZL1 are cool cars, but they're not cars you can live with every day. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fool. No one above 3 feet tall can live in a Camaro every day.
You have no idea what you're talking about, so no point in even trying to correct you. Just stop spreading false information.

I don't necessarily need too much of a "faster" M3. The reason I like the M3 over the Vette or GT500 also has to do with the interior. I would like a little more low-end torque, but that's not make-or-break for me. When I'm in the market between a C63 and an M3, I would just like the carsto at least be enjoyable and nice to be in, not just to drive.
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      04-28-2012, 08:46 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keikdasneak View Post
With all these car company’s releasing cars pushing well over 480hp i believe if the M3/M4 comes with 450hp only it’s going to disappoint a lot of people, especially me.

Ford GT500 is already pushing 660hp
ZL1 580hp
C63 481hp

Unless they drop the weight of this car, i don't see how they are going to keep up with the competition
I think you don´t have understand the philosophy of BMW M ... there cars mostly doesn´t have the biggest hp numbers in their class, but outperform all others because they are more balanced and refined than their competitors.

I would be very happy if the new lighter F80M3 gets only 420 to 440hp if they keey the great S65 in the car.
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      04-28-2012, 09:19 AM   #31
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I've also thought about this a lot. There is no way the new m3 will have more that 460hp from the factory. I imagine its 1/4 times to be dead even with the e60m5. The new m3 can't be faster than the new m5, never has and never will. However, the fact that it will be turbo will make it a tuners dream and in modified form it will be a monster. In stock form I don't see it being much faster than the e90/92, nothing like the jump from the e46 to the e9x.
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      04-28-2012, 11:20 AM   #32
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't BMW understate the actual horsepower on their M cars? I thought I read a test somewhere that showed actual WHP to be even higher than the stated BHP from BMW. If that's the case, then doesn't it make any numbers discussion kind of irrelevant?
Like I said, I might be wrong here, but window stickers aren't always that accurate.
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      04-28-2012, 11:41 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bpark1977 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't BMW understate the actual horsepower on their M cars? I thought I read a test somewhere that showed actual WHP to be even higher than the stated BHP from BMW. If that's the case, then doesn't it make any numbers discussion kind of irrelevant?
Like I said, I might be wrong here, but window stickers aren't always that accurate.

That is the case with the N54/N55 engines.

.
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      04-28-2012, 11:46 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbauer View Post
I suggest you drive a supercharged M3.... You will eat your words!
Just wondering...what if we are all wrong, and the next gen M3 does not have turbos, but comes stock with superchargers.... hmmm.....



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      04-28-2012, 11:55 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
That is the case with the N54/N55 engines.

.
This is correct ^^^ the engines are basically maxed out. Different story with our V8 there is plenty of room to increase performance here, however, BMW has to follow the pack and come out with a more efficient engine in order to keep up with the Josses so to speak (the competishion like Porsche, Audi etc etc). Too sad really ... then that is what some say is progress.

I look forward what the BMW ///M Team will come up with for the new Generation ///M3's it always has been great in the past and it will continue to be so. As one fellow told me a few weeks ago in the gas station while filling my toy with fuel ...

"Nice car" he said "It is the car that sets the bench mark for all the others" anyway that is what he said and he drove a Jaguar
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      04-28-2012, 12:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonardo629 View Post
current gen M3 has always developed similar horsepower to the last gen M5, so using the same logic my best guess is the new M3 should have an output between 480~500, which is easy with a tri-turbo.
Your logic is on with the e39 and e60, but no way @ 500; now you'd be getting into M5/M6 territory. There wasn't that much of an increase with the f10 in HP compared to e60, as there was from the e39 ---> e60. More realistic is 450-475
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      04-28-2012, 12:34 PM   #37
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The people that recognize that the M3 shouldn't be cross-shopped against a high hp american car have it right.

Also bear in mind that forced induction cars are easy to add significant amounts of power to if that's your thing. 335's can be tuned to 400hp fairly easily, I'd imagine the new M3 can be tuned to 500+ safely because BMW is not going to release the car on the limits of safety boost-wise.

600hp is still totally usable BTW, maybe not so much on small city streets, but definitely either a highway or track environment. I've driven cars with that much or more on roads and on track and you just have to realize the throttle is not an on/off switch...

My 2 cents.
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      04-28-2012, 03:47 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tico1028 View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about, so no point in even trying to correct you. Just stop spreading false information.

I don't necessarily need too much of a "faster" M3. The reason I like the M3 over the Vette or GT500 also has to do with the interior. I would like a little more low-end torque, but that's not make-or-break for me. When I'm in the market between a C63 and an M3, I would just like the cars to at least be enjoyable and nice to be in, not just to drive.
Stop spreading false information? What's false about what I said?
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      04-28-2012, 05:53 PM   #39
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The M3 has always been about balance and in my opinion having owned all generations of M3 the E92 is close to being on the limit for public roads. I always felt this car would be dangerous with more hp. Too me it's the chassis engineering that makes or breaks the relationship between car and powerplant. Interestingly BMW always hits it spot on every 2nd generation.

My E30 obviously was amazing but could have handle slightly more power although this probably would have ruined the car (the 3.5 conversions on some cars showed this).

My E36 (euro-spec 321hp) was always a little ragged as if more time was spent on the fabulous engine than the chassis and the car never quite felt 'together'.

My E46 was perfectly balanced in terms of chassis/power output.

My E92 was all about the amazing engine, chassis was great but never had the same balance feeling that the E46 had in abundance. It felt big and heavy when pushed round a twisty Scottish road.

My E82 1M is more like it but it takes a while to get used to the sudden shove of torque that you get when the turbos come on boost, the chassis is so forgiving though and its much closer to the feel of the E30 & E46

These are of course my experience of these cars on UK public roads and tracks. You may have your own experiences.

So simply the M3 is in danger of becoming the junior M6 GT type of car with too much power that will move it out of the class it created in the first place. The M3 was never meant to be a big HP car - it never was - there have always been more powerful rivals - the M3 was always all about FEEL and BALANCE. Sadly having seen the new F30 - which is HUGE - I think the purists will have to turn to the next gen M2 for this type of experience as the M3 will move up to a different slot in the market.

Sad times....
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      04-29-2012, 12:36 AM   #40
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Well E92 M3 was 414hp vs E60 M5 507hp. That is appx. 91hp difference between the two. I think the new M3 should then at minimum be a 467hp car at least to maintain the gap.

So in conclusion I would be happy with superb a driving dynamics and great steering feel in a 450hp new M3. However, I think I might be a little tiny bit more happy in an M3 that offers everything above but in a 470hp package
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      04-29-2012, 06:31 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine View Post
I don't think the M3 really competes with the GT500 or the ZL1. Balance is what sells the M3 not power.
+1

I think though these other cars are getting much better, you don't buy a M3 or Mustang for the same reasons. Also, I think even with "only" 450bhp we must remember the next M3 will be lighter and have much more torque.

The bottom line is no M3 has disappointed and I dont think the next one will let people down.
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      04-29-2012, 10:59 AM   #42
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If its lighter i am game. But if not i really don't see it out doing any real sport cars. The Mustang GT even hangs with the current M3 in a striaght line and turns.
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      04-29-2012, 12:35 PM   #43
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+1

I think though these other cars are getting much better, you don't buy a M3 or Mustang for the same reasons. Also, I think even with "only" 450bhp we must remember the next M3 will be lighter and have much more torque.

The bottom line is no M3 has disappointed and I dont think the next one will let people down.
I think this has been true up until 2011 when Ford made some significant changes in the Mustang. There have been quite a few comparisons to the M3 every since and most of them pretty close in numbers. Actually, C&D timed the Boss 302 Mustang at VIR 3 seconds faster than the M3. I would guess there is still a difference in prestige, sense of quality and overall feel. However, if you can get 90% of the performance for 50% of the cost I would think there are quite a few people who will cross shop both.
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      04-29-2012, 01:39 PM   #44
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M cars are never about straight line performance, it's about doing everything well together in unison.
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