BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-22-2012, 08:18 AM   #1
mpower4life
Private First Class
mpower4life's Avatar
5
Rep
100
Posts

 
Drives: E36 Avus Blue M3 / E39 M5
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, WA

iTrader: (0)

Low end torque...

I'm sure this has been discussed but I was just thinking out of all the M3 models so far, none have had great low end torque. Or a solid torque band of any sort for that matter. You would think by now they would have made adjustments but am also wondering if it is on purpose. They have always been a smooth transmitting power base but no kick you in your pants low end. Anyone have any insight on this matter? I'm willing to bet this will no longer be an issue on the upcoming M3/4 seeing as it will likely have plenty of torque, but why so long when all the competition has been putting out better low end numbers for some time now and you constantly get people saying they love their 335s for the torque and so forth. So what gives??

Thanks guys.
__________________
BMW: THE ATHLETE IN A SUIT
Appreciate 0
      04-22-2012, 10:09 AM   #2
az34
Major
az34's Avatar
Canada
18
Rep
1,015
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 z4sdrive35i 2008 x5 3.0i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: montréal

iTrader: (0)

the current gen M3 engine is a screamer same goes for the outgoing e60 M5 delivering HP at the very end of the power curve. I'll change whit the upcoming F30 M3 as it will be turbocharged whit tons of low end torque like the F10 M5.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2012, 09:24 AM   #3
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
67
Rep
4,329
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.75]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
I am not sure I understand your statement .

The M3 has a pretty nice flat torque band. True, it does not have the bottom end torque as a turbo engine has, but it is able to maintain that torque much higher in the rev range.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2012, 11:56 AM   #4
hwelvaar
Major
Belgium
24
Rep
1,071
Posts

 
Drives: BMW M135i MT
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I am not sure I understand your statement .

The M3 has a pretty nice flat torque band. True, it does not have the bottom end torque as a turbo engine has, but it is able to maintain that torque much higher in the rev range.
Compare E90 M3 V8 torque with F10 M5 V8 torque.
Nuff said.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2012, 12:03 PM   #5
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
67
Rep
4,329
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.75]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
Compare E90 M3 V8 torque with F10 M5 V8 torque.
Nuff said.
I understand a turbo engine will produce more torque than a NA engine

My comment alluded to the OP statement that NA ///M cars do not have a "solid torque band".
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2012, 12:15 PM   #6
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
183
Rep
13,833
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 SO/CSAT F80 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpower4life View Post
I'm sure this has been discussed but I was just thinking out of all the M3 models so far, none have had great low end torque. Or a solid torque band of any sort for that matter. You would think by now they would have made adjustments but am also wondering if it is on purpose. They have always been a smooth transmitting power base but no kick you in your pants low end. Anyone have any insight on this matter?
Naturally aspirated engines are generally limited in peak torque output by their displacement. And since no M3 to date has had forced induction or displacement greater than 4L, this explains the low peak torque value on paper.

A side note: If you search M3Post.com you will find many discussions on the topic of torque, some extremely informative. I suggest you have a look.

Quote:
I'm willing to bet this will no longer be an issue on the upcoming M3/4 seeing as it will likely have plenty of torque, but why so long when all the competition has been putting out better low end numbers for some time now and you constantly get people saying they love their 335s for the torque and so forth. So what gives??
First, be aware that an E9x M3 has higher wheel torque numbers than a stock E9x 335i except at some very low speeds in 1st and 2nd gear. Gearing is key here. As for people comparing the 335i vs. the M3, remember that what you feel when you drive a car is not necessarily indicative of how the car is performing.

That being said, if you look at the M3 power (note, not torque) curve vs. a 335i or other car noted for "good low end torque" one thing is immediately apparent: the M3 builds power right up until nearly redline, while most cars make peak power somewhere midway in their RPM range. This is why an M3 does not give the immediate impression of quickness - you must rev the car high in order to tap into its full 414hp potential. Shift at 3500 RPM, or even at 6000 RPM, and you may be disappointed. As a corollary, at low around-town speeds you need to hold gears (or downshift) to unleash the car's true potential.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2012, 12:31 PM   #7
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
Czech_Republic
124
Rep
3,443
Posts

 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

iTrader: (0)

Good thing is that with the next M3/M4 generation we'll have no more threads like THIS. So sad some can't drive.

Maybe there'll be some threads like "Why can't I rev over 8.000 RPM?", but I doubt, because NA lovers won't get anything TC, or at least have understanding.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2012, 07:26 PM   #8
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Good thing is that with the next M3/M4 generation we'll have no more threads like THIS. So sad some can't drive.

Maybe there'll be some threads like "Why can't I rev over 8.000 RPM?", but I doubt, because NA lovers won't get anything TC, or at least have understanding.


When I traded in my sept 2006 335i N54 for a 2008 E90 M3 back then I was dissapointed in the lack of 'low end torque' for the first few weeks. Keeping it above 3500/4000rpm should do the trick. Like with a N54/55 keeping it above 2000rpm. Two totally different engines.

The F80 M3 will be a low end torque bomb.
Appreciate 0
      04-24-2012, 01:53 AM   #9
as7920
Lieutenant Colonel
as7920's Avatar
United Kingdom
35
Rep
1,772
Posts

 
Drives: AW M135i 5dr auto
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post


When I traded in my sept 2006 335i N54 for a 2008 E90 M3 back then I was dissapointed in the lack of 'low end torque' for the first few weeks. Keeping it above 3500/4000rpm should do the trick. Like with a N54/55 keeping it above 2000rpm. Two totally different engines.

The F80 M3 will be a low end torque bomb.
Mind me asking why you have gone back from M3 to 335i? Lease/new model?
Appreciate 0
      04-24-2012, 05:48 AM   #10
hwelvaar
Major
Belgium
24
Rep
1,071
Posts

 
Drives: BMW M135i MT
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by as7920 View Post
Mind me asking why you have gone back from M3 to 335i? Lease/new model?
He didn't. He went from 335i to M3. Read again

Edit: sorry, i was wrong. it seems he went from E9X 335i to E9X M3 and then to F30 335i. (according to avatar)
Appreciate 0
      04-24-2012, 05:55 AM   #11
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
Netherlands
82
Rep
4,696
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by as7920 View Post
Mind me asking why you have gone back from M3 to 335i? Lease/new model?
2006 E90 335i----> 2008 E90 M3------> 2010 535i--------> 2012 F30 335i

M3 was a blast. But also $$$ to maintain plus in daily driving I prefer the N54/55 engine(low end torque) . The M3 is /was a Dr.Jekyll/Mr Hyde thing. But at the end of the day and with too much traffic it was more a Dr Jekyll than a Mr Hyde for me
Appreciate 0
      04-24-2012, 05:59 AM   #12
as7920
Lieutenant Colonel
as7920's Avatar
United Kingdom
35
Rep
1,772
Posts

 
Drives: AW M135i 5dr auto
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
2006 E90 335i----> 2008 E90 M3------> 2010 535i--------> 2012 F30 335i

M3 was a blast. But also $$$ to maintain plus in daily driving I prefer the N54/55 engine(low end torque) . The M3 is /was a Dr.Jekyll/Mr Hyde thing. But at the end of the day and with too much traffic it was more a Dr Jekyll than a Mr Hyde for me
Miss the (low-end) torque huh?

That's some changing going on there!
Appreciate 0
      04-25-2012, 04:15 PM   #13
mpower4life
Private First Class
mpower4life's Avatar
5
Rep
100
Posts

 
Drives: E36 Avus Blue M3 / E39 M5
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vancouver, WA

iTrader: (0)

no need for hostility here. I'm going merely off what I have heard others say. I love the high-revving capabilities that the M3 has maintained. I was just thinking as reasons I have heard others complain or why they don't like M3s verse other torque monsters. I wouldn't own one if I did not truly enjoy it. It would not be my next car also if not the case. I will always own an M3.
Appreciate 0
      04-26-2012, 01:46 PM   #14
jaehshim
Captain
jaehshim's Avatar
United_States
14
Rep
795
Posts

 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
the M3 builds power right up until nearly redline, while most cars make peak power somewhere midway in their RPM range.
couldn't agree more.
It is incredible to see how the flat torque is all throughout the rev range.
This is neither a FI engine like the 335i nor a big displacement V8 like the C63 (4L in V8 confi is considered "small").
This simply is a high revving engine with ITB.

This is what BMW is trying to reach with F80. Sure putting a turbo will give loads of power, that's not the problem. But will it have the responsiveness of NA like the current V8 or Inline-6? and will it sound like an NA?

Question is pretty much answered with the new M5.
You take it to track where these cars belong, and see the difference right away. Turbo is turbo. It will never have the responsiveness of NA displacement engines with ITB.
Appreciate 0
      04-28-2012, 06:23 PM   #15
SomeRandomer123
Colonel
SomeRandomer123's Avatar
England
87
Rep
2,572
Posts

 
Drives: F30 328i Luxury - Sport Auto
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lancashire, North West England, UK

iTrader: (0)

If it's torque you're after, employ an N57! The feeling of it in my 330d is addictive, and real fun! Made the 328i (F30) feel pathetic, although it is marginally pathetic. I wanted a 330d or 335d but the 328i was the closest regarding power and economy.

Yep, new M3 will be a completely different yet still absolutely beast. Wonder where the redline will be situated...
__________________

Gone: 2006 BMW E60 520d SE 6MT
Gone: 2009 BMW E90-LCI 330d SE 6MT
Current: 2012 F30 328i Luxury 8AT
My 328i initial thoughts + media!http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=712673
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:27 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST