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      04-30-2012, 02:07 AM   #45
crazylegs52
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Thought I would chime in with some realistic price comparisons (nicely equipped models):
2012 Chevy Camaro ZL1 $56k
2012 Chevy Corvette base $66k
2012 MB C63 AMG $>80k
2012 Ford Mustang GT500 $67k
2012 Ford Mustang Boss LS $51
2011 BMW M3 (loaded) $75

Might appear that M3 is so much more expensive but I think when you go look at the TYPE of car, paint schemes, what it's designers were going for, how it drives, what it is SUPPOSED to do, the M3 is a fantastic car. AND, it is >6 year old car design with minimal refreshments! The other models here are all almost brand new. The vette is the oldest without refresh I believe. I think when the new M3 rolls out, we will see a lighter, more fuel efficient, high performance, daily driver, that excels at everything, and has a European quality to it that the other cars (except MB) do not have. The American cars were built with a different mindset than the M3, RS5, or C63 AMG. They are great cars, just different. And I don't think they are a steal compared to the car they are chasing after...

My 2
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      04-30-2012, 06:47 AM   #46
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the C63 amg is already dated and it just came out (coupe that is). Mercedes is moving away from the 6.2 L NA V-8 and to the M157 across the board. While the current c63 has some astronomical numbers, it weights ~3900 lbs, peak torque @5000 rpm, LSD is an option, and stock rear tires are 255's.... c'mon.

The power is meaningless, the bimmer has it beat on so many levels. So when the next m3 comes out with ~400 lb-ft kicking in at 2000 rpms, with the suspension and tranny to maximize it, the c63 won't have a chance.
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      04-30-2012, 10:05 AM   #47
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It will be fine with 450 hp as long as weight stays same or less. Tq will be much more abundant. Top model Mustangs and Camaros have historically had higher hp values...

It will be fine vs. the new C63.
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      05-01-2012, 10:43 PM   #48
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      05-02-2012, 03:03 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazylegs52 View Post
Thought I would chime in with some realistic price comparisons (nicely equipped models):
2012 Chevy Camaro ZL1 $56k
2012 Chevy Corvette base $66k
2012 MB C63 AMG $>80k
2012 Ford Mustang GT500 $67k
2012 Ford Mustang Boss LS $51
2011 BMW M3 (loaded) $75

Might appear that M3 is so much more expensive but I think when you go look at the TYPE of car, paint schemes, what it's designers were going for, how it drives, what it is SUPPOSED to do, the M3 is a fantastic car.

I dunno about this..

The c63 amg coupe with nice options is only $70,000
the 2012 GT500 in a vert with all options is at MAX $67,000
The 2013 starts at $54,000 and mine with the SVT performance pack, recaro seats, and navi came preordered at $62,000.
The boss is about $47,000


I agree the next m3 will be GREAT. But I think they are falling behind in every category except for best "overall daily driver" as most call it.
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      05-02-2012, 05:36 PM   #50
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Stop spreading false information? What's false about what I said?
You said the M3 will walk all over the C63 on the track...not true,it's a close race,a driver's race.
And in a straight line, the C63 is a clear winner.
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      05-02-2012, 05:57 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
You said the M3 will walk all over the C63 on the track...not true,it's a close race,a driver's race.
And in a straight line, the C63 is a clear winner.
The C63 was not designed to be a track car it is not AMG's philosophy. Of course its up to the driver to push the car, but with equal talent behind the wheel the M3 easily wins on any track, its chassis is miles ahead of the C63. When I have drove the C63 up in the tight mountain roads of Nor Cal it felt like there was a boat anchor over the front axle, and it had very dull reactions especially in the switch backs and in the slow corners you had to be very very careful of the throttle. I was not impressed and could not wait to get back in my E46 M3.
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      05-02-2012, 06:06 PM   #52
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The C63 was not designed to be a track car it is not AMG's philosophy. Of course its up to the driver to push the car, but with equal talent behind the wheel the M3 easily wins on any track, its chassis is miles ahead of the C63. When I have drove the C63 up in the tight mountain roads of Nor Cal it felt like there was a boat anchor over the front axle, and it had very dull reactions especially in the switch backs and in the slow corners you had to be very very careful of the throttle. I was not impressed and could not wait to get back in my E46 M3.
That my friend is also false. I used to work for MB as an AMG Specialist and I can tell you right now, for the past decade, their philosophy (besides "One Man-One Engine") was for their suspension and handling to be on par with their striaght line performance and they are damn near close with the C63 Coupe and the SLS. I know everyone is different, but your statement of our M3 chassis over the C63's is a little puzzling to me.

To each their own
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      05-02-2012, 08:40 PM   #53
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That my friend is also false. I used to work for MB as an AMG Specialist and I can tell you right now, for the past decade, their philosophy (besides "One Man-One Engine") was for their suspension and handling to be on par with their striaght line performance and they are damn near close with the C63 Coupe and the SLS. I know everyone is different, but your statement of our M3 chassis over the C63's is a little puzzling to me.

To each their own
AMG's when you probably worked there were most likely these kind,
You could beat a Porsche to the next stoplight. You couldn't beat the guy in the purple Cavalier with the J. C. Whitney wing through a series of corners.

You can not drive a C63 and a M3 back to back and tell me the chassis of the C63 on par with an M3, if you do then you have a lead butt!

I remember reading an interview with Volker Mornhinweg when he took AMG over talking about how they had to get back to there roots and become more focused,not just straight line bandits so clearly there trying but they are not there yet, also the SLS lap times do not compare favorably with the cars in its range.
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      05-02-2012, 08:57 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by E46M View Post
AMG's when you probably worked there were most likely these kind,
You could beat a Porsche to the next stoplight. You couldn't beat the guy in the purple Cavalier with the J. C. Whitney wing through a series of corners.

You can not drive a C63 and a M3 back to back and tell me the chassis of the C63 on par with an M3, if you do then you have a lead butt!

I remember reading an interview with Volker Mornhinweg when he took AMG over talking about how they had to get back to there roots and become more focused,not just straight line bandits so clearly there trying but they are not there yet, also the SLS lap times do not compare favorably with the cars in its range.
I should of clarified. I was with MB from 2005 till about 3 months ago. When I started with MB, the C55 and the E55 were the epitome of striaght line performance with little to offer in the corners. The C63 and CLK63 Black Series were literally the first AMGs that put handling back in focus.

What I remember most when I was with MB was when I was down at our service center with an MB Corporate Instructor and he was driving an SLR McLaren, while his co-instructor was in the CLK63 BS and they were taking turns with our shop foreman on trying to fine tune something (forgot what it was). On any rate, they both said that in terms of handling, the SLR felt like a yacht compared to the CLK63 BS and that AMG GmbH is starting to realize now that upcoming models need to have the same recipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E46M View Post
also the SLS lap times do not compare favorably with the cars in its range.
The SLS is a beast around the track. Got a chance to go to Laguna Seca and drive them around the track, but what blew me away were the professional race car driver's that took it to the next level. It's still a bit heavier than the rest of the crowded field of competitors, which is why the lap times aren't "favorable". What AMG needs most is to go on a diet...

EDIT: Next Black Series treatment is the SLS.

EDIT EDIT: What BMW needs is a halo car to compete with the SLS

Last edited by Ghetto2315; 05-02-2012 at 09:08 PM.
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      05-02-2012, 09:57 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ghetto2315 View Post
I should of clarified. I was with MB from 2005 till about 3 months ago. When I started with MB, the C55 and the E55 were the epitome of striaght line performance with little to offer in the corners. The C63 and CLK63 Black Series were literally the first AMGs that put handling back in focus.

What I remember most when I was with MB was when I was down at our service center with an MB Corporate Instructor and he was driving an SLR McLaren, while his co-instructor was in the CLK63 BS and they were taking turns with our shop foreman on trying to fine tune something (forgot what it was). On any rate, they both said that in terms of handling, the SLR felt like a yacht compared to the CLK63 BS and that AMG GmbH is starting to realize now that upcoming models need to have the same recipe.


I have no argument against the fact that the C63 is getting much much better, but it is still not there in terms of what I look for in that segment.


The SLS is a beast around the track. Got a chance to go to Laguna Seca and drive them around the track, but what blew me away were the professional race car driver's that took it to the next level. It's still a bit heavier than the rest of the crowded field of competitors, which is why the lap times aren't "favorable". What AMG needs most is to go on a diet...

EDIT: Next Black Series treatment is the SLS.

EDIT EDIT: What BMW needs is a halo car to compete with the SLS
I have no argument against the fact that the C63 is getting much much better, but it is still not there in terms of what I look for in that segment.

And I wish BMW would make a true M HALO car, all we get is that I8
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      05-02-2012, 10:12 PM   #56
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You said the M3 will walk all over the C63 on the track...not true,it's a close race,a driver's race.
And in a straight line, the C63 is a clear winner.
The C63 in a straight line against a manual M3, the AMG will win, yes.

When the M3 is equipped with M-DCT, they're separated by .2-seconds, which can be a lot. The M3 will do 60 in 3.9-seconds, as opposed to the AMG's potential to hit 3.7-seconds.

Around the track, well I'll let C&D's 2008 Lightning Lap shed some more light on that one for you: http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...lap-2008-1.pdf [WARNING: PDF] The M3 is almost a full second faster around the track.

As for the Nürburgring lap times: Horst von Saurma has tested both cars.

8:05 BMW M3 E92 / Horst von Saurma / Sport Auto (12/2007)
8:13 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG / Horst von Saurma / Sport Auto (2/2009)

In case you don't know, Sport Auto test showroom stock vehicles. Cars with street tires, straight off what you can buy at a dealer lot with ZERO modifications. So no special tires, no roll cages, etc. are used.

I stand by my original comment. An M3 will walk all over a C63 AMG on the race track. Don't ever say I'm spreading "false information" ever again. My profession calls for me to make sure any information I spread is correct.
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      05-02-2012, 10:14 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Ghetto2315 View Post
I should of clarified. I was with MB from 2005 till about 3 months ago. When I started with MB, the C55 and the E55 were the epitome of striaght line performance with little to offer in the corners. The C63 and CLK63 Black Series were literally the first AMGs that put handling back in focus.

What I remember most when I was with MB was when I was down at our service center with an MB Corporate Instructor and he was driving an SLR McLaren, while his co-instructor was in the CLK63 BS and they were taking turns with our shop foreman on trying to fine tune something (forgot what it was). On any rate, they both said that in terms of handling, the SLR felt like a yacht compared to the CLK63 BS and that AMG GmbH is starting to realize now that upcoming models need to have the same recipe.



The SLS is a beast around the track. Got a chance to go to Laguna Seca and drive them around the track, but what blew me away were the professional race car driver's that took it to the next level. It's still a bit heavier than the rest of the crowded field of competitors, which is why the lap times aren't "favorable". What AMG needs most is to go on a diet...

EDIT: Next Black Series treatment is the SLS.

EDIT EDIT: What BMW needs is a halo car to compete with the SLS
Let's be straight: AMG are doing a fantastic job, no doubt. However, they're still not up to par with BMW. I'd say AMG and Cadillac's V series are very similar in chassis dynamics with the power loads. The CTS-V is a bit better in some areas, while the C63 AMG is a bit more fun to drive. That's my personal feeling. However, the M3 is still very much so the king in this segment. Not trying to be a fanboy, but Cadillac have a little bit more to play with before they've beaten the M3 at BMW M's game.
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      05-03-2012, 11:36 AM   #58
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The C63 in a straight line against a manual M3, the AMG will win, yes.

When the M3 is equipped with M-DCT, they're separated by .2-seconds, which can be a lot. The M3 will do 60 in 3.9-seconds, as opposed to the AMG's potential to hit 3.7-seconds.

Around the track, well I'll let C&D's 2008 Lightning Lap shed some more light on that one for you: http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...lap-2008-1.pdf [WARNING: PDF] The M3 is almost a full second faster around the track.

As for the Nürburgring lap times: Horst von Saurma has tested both cars.

8:05 BMW M3 E92 / Horst von Saurma / Sport Auto (12/2007)
8:13 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG / Horst von Saurma / Sport Auto (2/2009)

In case you don't know, Sport Auto test showroom stock vehicles. Cars with street tires, straight off what you can buy at a dealer lot with ZERO modifications. So no special tires, no roll cages, etc. are used.

I stand by my original comment. An M3 will walk all over a C63 AMG on the race track. Don't ever say I'm spreading "false information" ever again. My profession calls for me to make sure any information I spread is correct.

Rrgarding your numbers,On a 4.2 mike course the M3 is less than a second faster and Top Gear has the C63 on one of the tracks they use faster than the M3 ( on different days of course, same as your nurburgring times).

Nobody is arguing the fact that the M3 has an edge when it comes to handling but it doesnt walk all over the C63.

When you say a car A walks all over car B, it means it beats it by a wide margin.
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      05-03-2012, 12:28 PM   #59
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Car and Driver have the latest C63 and M3 rated almost identical (1 pt).
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      05-03-2012, 03:43 PM   #60
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Rrgarding your numbers,On a 4.2 mike course the M3 is less than a second faster and Top Gear has the C63 on one of the tracks they use faster than the M3 ( on different days of course, same as your nurburgring times).

Nobody is arguing the fact that the M3 has an edge when it comes to handling but it doesnt walk all over the C63.

When you say a car A walks all over car B, it means it beats it by a wide margin.
When Top Gear had the Stig drive the M3,RS4 and C63 around ascari racetrack the M3 was something around 5 seconds a lap faster!!!! Same Day, Same Driver.

Here is the video: It starts at the 6:55 mark
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      05-03-2012, 06:07 PM   #61
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8:01 --- 153.99 km/h - Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe, 487 PS/170 kg (sport auto 01/12)

http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID...3&viewThread=y

That's eight minutes and one second by sport auto in a C63 coupe.
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      05-03-2012, 08:04 PM   #62
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Rrgarding your numbers,On a 4.2 mike course the M3 is less than a second faster and Top Gear has the C63 on one of the tracks they use faster than the M3 ( on different days of course, same as your nurburgring times).

Nobody is arguing the fact that the M3 has an edge when it comes to handling but it doesnt walk all over the C63.

When you say a car A walks all over car B, it means it beats it by a wide margin.
9-tenths of a second is a hell of a lot of time!!! That's walking all over the AMG. In fact, not only is that walking all over it, that's finishing, jumping out of the car, shitting in your own hand and throwing it at the AMG as it drives by to finish its lap.

The C63 AMG they have tested on the Top Gear Test Track was the Black Series, which is a sort of specialized track car.

When Top Gear tested the RS4, M3 and C63 AMG together on the Ascari Circuit in Spain, the C63 AMG did a 2:45.5 lap, while the M3 did it in 2:38.9. Again, walking all over the AMG the M3 does...

Once again I've proved you WRONG. You are spreading false beliefs based on ZERO evidence.
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      05-03-2012, 08:08 PM   #63
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8:01 --- 153.99 km/h - Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe, 487 PS/170 kg (sport auto 01/12)

http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID...3&viewThread=y

That's eight minutes and one second by sport auto in a C63 coupe.
In order for that to count in this argument Sport Auto would have to test the newer M3 ZCP to go up against the AMG's updated suspension and extra power/torque coming from the motor. Could the ZCP make up 4-seconds? Honestly, I think the E92 M3 originally tested wasn't really that slow (8:05). I think that it should have been more like 8:01-8:03. I've heard some people taking their stock M3s to the Nürburgring and achieving similar times in the low 8-minute range.
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      05-03-2012, 08:13 PM   #64
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With all these car company’s releasing cars pushing well over 480hp i believe if the M3/M4 comes with 450hp only it’s going to disappoint a lot of people, especially me.

Ford GT500 is already pushing 660hp
ZL1 580hp
C63 481hp

Unless they drop the weight of this car, i don't see how they are going to keep up with the competition
The M3's selling point isn't power, it's balance. The C63 would get mopped by a new M3, Mercedes doesn't do track cars. The GT500 and ZL1 don't even compete.
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      05-03-2012, 09:39 PM   #65
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In order for that to count in this argument Sport Auto would have to test the newer M3 ZCP to go up against the AMG's updated suspension and extra power/torque coming from the motor. Could the ZCP make up 4-seconds? Honestly, I think the E92 M3 originally tested wasn't really that slow (8:05). I think that it should have been more like 8:01-8:03. I've heard some people taking their stock M3s to the Nürburgring and achieving similar times in the low 8-minute range.
I completely agree. I would love to see Sport Auto do that test. I'm actually surprised that they have not. The 8:01 time for the C63 coupe was merely a point of interest and a demonstration of the car's significant improvement since the sedan version. AMG has made some serious inroads and I as a consumer enjoy the competition.
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      05-03-2012, 09:58 PM   #66
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9-tenths of a second is a hell of a lot of time!!! That's walking all over the AMG. In fact, not only is that walking all over it, that's finishing, jumping out of the car, shitting in your own hand and throwing it at the AMG as it drives by to finish its lap.

The C63 AMG they have tested on the Top Gear Test Track was the Black Series, which is a sort of specialized track car.

When Top Gear tested the RS4, M3 and C63 AMG together on the Ascari Circuit in Spain, the C63 AMG did a 2:45.5 lap, while the M3 did it in 2:38.9. Again, walking all over the AMG the M3 does...

Once again I've proved you WRONG. You are spreading false beliefs based on ZERO evidence.
If you re gonna ignore times where the c63 runs closer times then sure. Here TOP GEAR has the heavier E63 AMG walk all over the M3.
Not bad for another car designed for straight line performance.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...imes#section_1
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