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      05-22-2012, 01:32 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by ATX78703 View Post
Why is everybody hoping for 3.2-3.5 L displacement? Let's say it's just 3.0L and is really just a reinforced N55 block, but all the gains are in an innovative turbo setup.... What's wrong with that?
Hoping this is sarcasm..... Obviously no incentive to buy a reinforced N55 that's rebranded as an "M" motor. Good knows the M division never would've been as successful if that's what they did from the start.
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      05-22-2012, 01:51 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
Hoping this is sarcasm..... Obviously no incentive to buy a reinforced N55 that's rebranded as an "M" motor. Good knows the M division never would've been as successful if that's what they did from the start.
You seemed to have missed the part about the "innovative turbo setup". This is exactly what differentiates the S63 from the N63 today (along with more boost, higher redline, etc.). So the same transformation is possible for the N55 to an S55.

Furthermore, in fact, most M engines have been based upon normal series engine. This was not true of the S65 and S85, but before these it was the norm.
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      05-22-2012, 02:08 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Ludwig Willisch has a very extensive background within BMW AG which made him the perfect candidate for the US CEO of BMW North America.
Especially in light of the "electric car" statement which brought about the retirement of Jim O'Donnel which shows that global distributors are not informed of the latest developments right away.

Willisch is also very much the "Father" of the current BMW M5 F10, as the car was conceived whilst he was in charge of M. and then continued under Dr. Kay Segler. He is also the Father of the one of BMW M's most successful and highly profitable projects the BMW X5M and BMW X6M. and of course modern day Turbocharging.

Wilisch took over the reigns of BMW North America last year and brought and installed his key men from BMW AG in communications and marketing
in BMW North America.
Dirk Arnold is an awesome person- truly passionate and down to earth. He is a great person to lead the next generation of BMW products into the USA. I can't speak any higher of a person than I can of him.... not easily impressed usually.

-M
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      05-22-2012, 02:16 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You seemed to have missed the part about the "innovative turbo setup". This is exactly what differentiates the S63 from the N63 today (along with more boost, higher redline, etc.). So the same transformation is possible for the N55 to an S55.

Furthermore, in fact, most M engines have been based upon normal series engine. This was not true of the S65 and S85, but before these it was the norm.
Wait until the next leak of info comes out in the next few days (wink).... people will begin doomsday predictions. I keep using the cell phone being the size of a cylinder block and weighing the same analogy but as technology moved on people didn't hold on to them for nostalgia- this will be the same thing when comparing to past M products- so much more efficient, faster and powerful.

This car is going to be revolutionary from an engineering perspective and will blow minds....
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      05-22-2012, 02:22 PM   #181
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Do we anticipate the 2-door M3 to come out in 2015? I refuse to call it an M4 until BMW makes that designation official.

Even then, I wonder how many people will purchase an M4 but rebadge it as an M3
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      05-22-2012, 02:34 PM   #182
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The Key thing to always remember and one thing I do get concerned about when I read these comments from "enthusiasts" is that these are people who know exactly what they are doing in terms of goals for the car.
It is surprising how little credit the people responsible actually get from some "enthusiasts".

Each car from BMW whether a series model or indeed an M. is a combination of team work that involves many departments from initial conception, design , engineering , marketing and assembly. And through this process ideas are evaluated, tested , approved and discarded until that right solution is evident. Even the assistants that pour the coffee and file the minutes are part of that process.
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      05-22-2012, 02:50 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Wait until the next leak of info comes out in the next few days (wink).... people will begin doomsday predictions. I keep using the cell phone being the size of a cylinder block and weighing the same analogy but as technology moved on people didn't hold on to them for nostalgia- this will be the same thing when comparing to past M products- so much more efficient, faster and powerful.

This car is going to be revolutionary from an engineering perspective and will blow minds....
I am very confident & excited to see the new engine & other technology incorporated into the new M3/M4. I just hope that they take the changes applied to the F30 (light weight, more driver focus, etc) and apply it 10 times over to the new M. The E92 is a brilliant car & the v8 is incredible, but IMO it was the M3 that fell furthest from the "M" tree.
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      05-22-2012, 03:57 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATS View Post
First of all, if you want to be taken seriously, please don't use wikipedia as your only source of information.
I used wikipedia because it is quick and easy to search to throw up in a post. I don't need to try to track down endless articles in EVO, F1magazine, etc.

Second, I stated that it's way too political to know the true answer. The Ferrari pressure certainly was a significant factor.

But whatever, the point is the same, and that we agree on.
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      05-22-2012, 04:15 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfmateim65
500hp tri turbo n54 based blocked reinforced for 8500rpm redline!
Yesssss and 3000 pounds. I wish.
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      05-22-2012, 05:25 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated ///M
a
Quote:
Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
Pumped they've brought back the inline 6 to maintain the balance & handling characteristics thats made the 3-series (especially the Ms) infamous.

Really hoping to see a 3.3/3.5 L, twin turbo'd bomb shoved under the hood, pushing out a healthy balanced 450 HP/TQ bomb of an engine. Be interesting to see if they...
  • Ditch the 7 speed DCT for something more "updated" (Upgraded 8-speed ZF?)
  • Offer the carbon ceramic breaks
  • Ditch electronic steering for something more direct

Bottom line: Ditch the whole 4-Series marketing ploy & keep the 3 series + M3 moniker. That car is BMWs bread & butter

///M3
Ditch the M-DCT? What are you on? The M-DCT can snap shifts in I think 50-100ms(Someone correct me).That means there's less power loss and more power to the ground. You want a clunky 8 speed that gets confused and hunts for gears and can't make up it's mind, go get a IS-F. Stop with the smart ideas, bub.
Relax man. We have both double clutch and 8 speed cars. While double clutches great for a sports car it is cumbersome in town for normal driving and the first gear take up in manual mode is very jerky. I prefer zf 8 speed for a luxury car. For a sports car double clutch is a great setup ESP at higher speeds in excess of 40 kmph. Double clutch def shifts fast and the engine braking feels like A manual car.
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      05-22-2012, 05:27 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisstik
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfmateim65
500hp tri turbo n54 based blocked reinforced for 8500rpm redline!
Yesssss and 3000 pounds. I wish.
High redline is not that useful in turbo charged cars.

See: Porsche 911 turbo, f10 m5, Nissan gtr etc
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      05-22-2012, 05:48 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The Key thing to always remember and one thing I do get concerned about when I read these comments from "enthusiasts" is that these are people who know exactly what they are doing in terms of goals for the car.
It is surprising how little credit the people responsible actually get from some "enthusiasts".

Each car from BMW whether a series model or indeed an M. is a combination of team work that involves many departments from initial conception, design , engineering , marketing and assembly. And through this process ideas are evaluated, tested , approved and discarded until that right solution is evident. Even the assistants that pour the coffee and file the minutes are part of that process.
The passion the employees at M have is second to none- people sometimes forget that some of those that developed the E30 (for one reason or another people view that as the "best" M) are still at M and unlike some "enthusiasts" those employees embrace technology and the progress of automobiles.

The new M3 will be controversial of course to many but it will remain the best in its segment and be at the cutting edge of technology. Time passes, things change but beneath it all personality and mentality remain the same- M builds the best there is for the target market. Have faith in M , they have never given a reason that they will disappoint.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rated ///M
a
Quote:
Originally Posted by benzy89
Pumped they've brought back the inline 6 to maintain the balance & handling characteristics thats made the 3-series (especially the Ms) infamous.

Really hoping to see a 3.3/3.5 L, twin turbo'd bomb shoved under the hood, pushing out a healthy balanced 450 HP/TQ bomb of an engine. Be interesting to see if they...
Ditch the 7 speed DCT for something more "updated" (Upgraded 8-speed ZF?)
Offer the carbon ceramic breaks
Ditch electronic steering for something more direct

Bottom line: Ditch the whole 4-Series marketing ploy & keep the 3 series + M3 moniker. That car is BMWs bread & butter

///M3
Ditch the M-DCT? What are you on? The M-DCT can snap shifts in I think 50-100ms(Someone correct me).That means there's less power loss and more power to the ground. You want a clunky 8 speed that gets confused and hunts for gears and can't make up it's mind, go get a IS-F. Stop with the smart ideas, bub.
Relax man. We have both double clutch and 8 speed cars. While double clutches great for a sports car it is cumbersome in town for normal driving and the first gear take up in manual mode is very jerky. I prefer zf 8 speed for a luxury car. For a sports car double clutch is a great setup ESP at higher speeds in excess of 40 kmph. Double clutch def shifts fast and the engine braking feels like A manual car.

The new DCT in the M5/M6 does not have the same low speed issues the original in the M3 did- it is light years better.
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      05-22-2012, 07:03 PM   #189
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Can't wait to see what they bring to bear, and am sure will not be disappointed. My ONLY concern is limp mode on track. I'm not talking about warm-up, hot-lap, cool-down. I'm talking 90+ heat, open lapping for 20-30 minutes a session, multiple sessions, and be ok... This plagues all turbo cars (to date) but hopefully this is where the M division has turned the tables. I want to track my M, or else I would have bought an AMG
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      05-22-2012, 07:31 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo
I don't understand why it has to come to S65 vs. N54 or turbo vs. NA all the time. At the time of E46 M3 CSL (maybe the best M car of all time imo) BMW felt like they reached the limits of NA inline sixes and they increased the displacement and number of cylinders with V8 M3 and V10 M5. It was first the M5 and the S65 was just a development of the V10 with 2 less cylinders. It is just the same scheme, same play all over again, first the F10 M5 with a twin turbo eight cylinder replacing the NA V10 and now an inline six twin turbo replacing the NA V8 in their respective models. Why is it a shock even? BMW know what they are doing but some people in these forums don't seem to have a clue about why they are whining just because they are hallucinating with a beautiful engine noise. Even Bugatti Veyron has four turbos if I remember correctly and only Lambo and Ferrari makes great and capable NA engines today, but can we or should we afford one Lambo or Ferrari unless we live in Cote d'Azur?

And when is the last time BMW disappointed drivers with a new M3?
When they put a bored out M52 in the US E36 M3. That the last time BMW disappointed with an M3.

And for real purists, an M3 should be <3000lbs and with a large bore 4 banger, ITBs and carbon air box.

T
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      05-22-2012, 07:50 PM   #191
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Maybe it'll be a single turbo n54 a la vishnu or hpf LOL..

In all seriousness it will probably have 2 twin scroll turbos to keep lag down and up the high end power..

I just hope it revs higher than 6,800 rpm
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      05-22-2012, 08:04 PM   #192
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While no one is questioning the abilities and passion of BMW employees or the M division, and the company has exhibited an unparalleled track record of over-achieving, corporations should nevertheless remember that "so called enthusiasts" are actually existing or potential customers. As any American automaker can attest to, the court of public opinion is one that should be respected. Ultimately, let the product speak for itself and the public will weigh the pros and cons, which will either validate the manufacturer's decisions or cause a re-evaluation. If the product is excellent (which is highly likely) and customers rave about it and want more, then BMW really has nothing to worry about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
The passion the employees at M have is second to none- people sometimes forget that some of those that developed the E30 (for one reason or another people view that as the "best" M) are still at M and unlike some "enthusiasts" those employees embrace technology and the progress of automobiles.

The new M3 will be controversial of course to many but it will remain the best in its segment and be at the cutting edge of technology. Time passes, things change but beneath it all personality and mentality remain the same- M builds the best there is for the target market. Have faith in M , they have never given a reason that they will disappoint.





The new DCT in the M5/M6 does not have the same low speed issues the original in the M3 did- it is light years better.
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      05-22-2012, 09:06 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The Key thing to always remember and one thing I do get concerned about when I read these comments from "enthusiasts" is that these are people who know exactly what they are doing in terms of goals for the car.
It is surprising how little credit the people responsible actually get from some "enthusiasts".

Each car from BMW whether a series model or indeed an M. is a combination of team work that involves many departments from initial conception, design , engineering , marketing and assembly. And through this process ideas are evaluated, tested , approved and discarded until that right solution is evident. Even the assistants that pour the coffee and file the minutes are part of that process.
I am a big fan of BMW M. Hey, i own an M3 and M5 now. That however, makes me even more concerned with the development of M products. BMW is making more and more $, which is a good thing, but let's not get too penny conscious and squeeze out the innovation that made M great. I will reserve final judgement until the details are official, but at the moment, i am apprehensive. Please impress us with an engine worthy of carrying the legendary M3 name! A tuned up N55 with twin scroll twin turbo ain't enough of an innovation in my book. If there is no fancy technology to eliminate lag, I would be sorely disappointed. In the mean time, i remain a fan of the next M3...
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      05-22-2012, 09:11 PM   #194
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Yay!!!!! Way to go BMW!!!!!!

I'd be extremely disappointed if BMW were to use v6 in the ///M3.

Why? Because the boys at Toyota could build an incredible turbo inline6 10 years ago called Supra, then BMW, who's well known for their i6, has got to do it better for their iconic M3.
I started my BMW ownership in their creamy smooth I6, but i actually prefer a V6. I6 engines are naturally balanced, making them refine and smooth, but in an M car, those attributes are not so important. I wouldn't describe my S65 as creamy smooth. That would be inappropriate. V6 offers superior packaging advantage due to the reduced length, which if exploited in the initial chassis design, could either improve interior accommodation or reduce overall size.
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      05-22-2012, 10:53 PM   #195
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      05-22-2012, 11:16 PM   #196
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Maybe it'll be a single turbo n54 a la vishnu or hpf LOL..

In all seriousness it will probably have 2 twin scroll turbos to keep lag down and up the high end power..

I just hope it revs higher than 6,800 rpm
I think this is a strong possibility. It could even operate off one of the small scrolls, then add the second small scroll, then bring in the remaining 2 scrolls either together or one at a time to optimize response. The BMW NA President said it would not have 3 turbos and this would meet the limit of 2 turbos. Also if you have ever carefully examined how complex the tri-turbo diesels are this is not a stretch.

This would be a hybrid of N54/N55 technology using the best of both. I also remember when Scott 26 was hinting about the 1M that they were working on a system where they were having trouble getting the Valvetronic right and could not include the new M3 engine in the 1M as they needed more time to resolve the issue. This from Scott 26 also supports something similar to this type of engine.

Also it is apparent that all of the recent M engines are M tuned versions of standard BMW motors. Another reason the new M3 engine may well be a Frankenstein N54/N55.

I did not believe M was going to modify a standard engine on the 1M but BMW seems to have adopted this strategy. I hope the M3/4 escapes this treatment. If they are saving money on the engines I just hope they put the unused money into lightening the car.
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      05-22-2012, 11:22 PM   #197
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Wait until the next leak of info comes out in the next few days (wink).... people will begin doomsday predictions. I keep using the cell phone being the size of a cylinder block and weighing the same analogy but as technology moved on people didn't hold on to them for nostalgia- this will be the same thing when comparing to past M products- so much more efficient, faster and powerful.

This car is going to be revolutionary from an engineering perspective and will blow minds....
I wonder if bmw has enough balls to put a money back guarantee on the next FI M3, for limp mode problems.

If owners start having overheating problems during track sessions. The internet forums will blow up. I really hope they have it figured out, or be prepared for a sh*t storm.

Even their most recent M example the f10 M5 has been going into limp mode in reviews.
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      05-22-2012, 11:24 PM   #198
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High redline is not that useful in turbo charged cars.

See: Porsche 911 turbo, f10 m5, Nissan gtr etc
Those are great cars you mention, but I would suggest that you read up on the technical details of the McLaren MP4-12C. Sure, this is a super car, but if you look at M history, they have been able to deliver an arguably exotic chassis and drivetrain in an every-man's car.

So it could have been, but it will not be. Well, at least not for the F8x. Maybe a future M3 will get a turbocharged V8 although I think it is more likely that we'll see a KERS Hybrid or some other mashup of today's goto efficiency tech, evolved as only BMW can do of course. In the end we get faster and more efficient cars, but we probably won't ever have an 8400RPM combustion engine from BMW again. An 8400RPM electric motor? Sure, could very well be some day far down the road.
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