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      05-30-2012, 09:13 PM   #1
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New F80 M3 Rumors +6hp, -220lbs

+6hp and -220lbs, according to automobile mag blog

"The new M3 weighs under 3300 pounds (a 220-pound improvement), features a choices of six-speed manual or eight-speed dual-clutch, and comes with an active M differential as well as with optional carbon ceramic brakes. Although some sources keep predicting a triple-turbo V-6, we can confirm the 3.0-liter twin-turbo straight-six. The power output currently slated at around 420 hp will be fixed relatively late in the game when all the competitors have put their cards on the table. The MkV M3 will be available as coupe, convertible, and sedan, but not with xDrive all-wheel drive like the new M Performance cars."

Read more: http://rumors.automobilemag.com/deep...#ixzz1wPQBsYHV
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      05-31-2012, 01:06 AM   #2
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It would be a huge achievement to deliver this weight. But power to weight would not be surprising at all.

I don't generally think Automobile Magazine is a good reference for solid rumors, perhaps others can clarify that claim.

Some discussion:

1. The current EU spec 6MT E92 M3 has an unladen weight of 3649 lb (1655 kg) subtracting 220 lb from that is 3429 lb which is way over 3300 lb. Thus they have some basic facts incorrect here. The unladen weight of the F32 335i is 3329 lb. Either way sub 3300 lb seems very optimistic given the large number of components which must be heavier in "upgrading" from the base model to the M model. It would take some very expensive materials and technology to overcome the certain weight gains (engine, suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, subframes, differential, transmission, etc.) This thread has a variety of guesses and educated guesses on the cars weight and none get to (or sub) 3300.

2. Power to weight. Power to weight numbers would be reasonable with this very low weight and relatively lower power (than thus far rumored).
Current M3 Coupe: 8.81 lb/hp.
From article: 420 hp, 3300 lb: 7.86 lb/hp
11% improvement

Lets compare to the M5
F10 5: 7.66 lb/hp
E60 M5: 7.96 lb/hp
Only a 4% increase

Some reasonable F30 M3 power and weight guesses:

3500 lb, 450 hp
7.78 lb/hp
That is within 1% of the 7.86 lb/hp figure!

3600 lb, 450 hp
8.00 lb/hp

Thus the 7.86 figure of the article is definitely "in the ball park". I would certainly rather have the lighter, lower power solution as it would make it a much better car. I just don't see how they can achieve this without some really expensive (cost prohibitive) materials.
3. Power per liter. The current Porsche turbo has 500 hp from 3.8l. That is 132 hp/l. The GT-R has as 545 hp (stated, have not kept up as to how much if any the car is under rated. The initial GT-R was clearly under rated by about 50 hp) from the same 3.8l. That is 143 hp/l. 420 hp from 3.0l would be in between the two at 140 hp/l. Certainly not out of the realm of a production vehicle.

The great thing is that BMW absolutely can (and likely will, as the article mentions) wait to see where other competitors might be coming in in terms of power and weight and simply change a few lines of code, dialing in the desired (i.e. competition besting power level). Just like the M-DCT from the E92 M3 (and all subsequent DCTs...) the software is critically important.
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      05-31-2012, 01:09 AM   #3
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That's an amazing weigh improvement if that's true. That's back to e46 weight.
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      05-31-2012, 05:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It would be a huge achievement to deliver this weight. But power to weight would not be surprising at all.

I don't generally think Automobile Magazine is a good reference for solid rumors, perhaps others can clarify that claim.

Some discussion:

...

3. Power per liter. The current Porsche turbo has 500 hp from 3.8l. That is 132 hp/l. The GT-R has as 545 hp (stated, have not kept up as to how much if any the car is under rated. The initial GT-R was clearly under rated by about 50 hp) from the same 3.8l. That is 143 hp/l. 420 hp from 3.0l would be in between the two at 140 hp/l. Certainly not out of the realm of a production vehicle.
I agree with this. Also look at the power that the 3.0L N54 puts out with just software modification... close to 420 bhp.
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      05-31-2012, 05:55 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by ProbyOne View Post
I agree with this. Also look at the power that the 3.0L N54 puts out with just software modification... close to 420 bhp.
which is pretty dang sweet (isn't that what they put in the new zagato coupe?). i do hope they don't just piggyback the N54 though, and instead they create a purpose-built engine...
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      05-31-2012, 05:57 PM   #6
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This sounds wildly speculative to me. The part about the power output being flexible until the competitors show their hands sounds particularly naive and romanticized.

They also completely gloss over the likely (though admittedly not confirmed) name change for the coupe/cab to M4, which would thereby leave the sedan the only M3 body style (unless they surprise with an F81).

And I would give almost no chance that peak power coming in at less than 450hp.

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Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
+6hp and -220lbs, according to automobile mag blog

"The new M3 weighs under 3300 pounds (a 220-pound improvement), features a choices of six-speed manual or eight-speed dual-clutch, and comes with an active M differential as well as with optional carbon ceramic brakes. Although some sources keep predicting a triple-turbo V-6, we can confirm the 3.0-liter twin-turbo straight-six. The power output – currently slated at around 420 hp – will be fixed relatively late in the game when all the competitors have put their cards on the table. The MkV M3 will be available as coupe, convertible, and sedan, but not with xDrive all-wheel drive like the new M Performance cars."

Read more: http://rumors.automobilemag.com/deep...#ixzz1wPQBsYHV
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      05-31-2012, 09:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
This sounds wildly speculative to me. The part about the power output being flexible until the competitors show their hands sounds particularly naive and romanticized.
Although having done a lot of engineering and product launches my experience working with or in the automotive industry is basically none. That being said opinions on this either way are just speculation. One the one hand these folks are immensely competitive and this could be a simple software based leg up. On the flip side there is so much design, testing and regulation work that depends on power level, its really one of the most fundamental specs of a car. These details lead me to side more with your speculation.

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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
And I would give almost no chance that peak power coming in at less than 450hp.
I initially thought the same thing but when running the power to weight numbers I changed my position on this point quite a bit. There are bits of evidence that can support or contradict this:

-420 is too small of a gain on paper
-The power to weight is the more important factor for performance
-BMW has stated things very along the lines of more performance through less weight
-The power to weight will almost for sure not exceed the F10 M5 (too much power and too little weight would do that)
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      06-01-2012, 12:09 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProbyOne View Post
I agree with this. Also look at the power that the 3.0L N54 puts out with just software modification... close to 420 bhp.
This is nonsense!
To elicit the N54 more than 360 hp stable, you have to do something more than just playing in the software.
Alpina itself is struggling with the 400 hp in the B3S! Since it is already very close to the limits of what can be done with the engine.

In addition, manufacturers have different ideas of what it means durable.
The engine must retrieve his power anytime, anywhere permanently. Whether it's at sea level at -60 C in Sweden, or at +60 C at 3,000 meters above the Death Valley.

And I can guarantee that a N54 creates even with modifications under these conditions, no 450 hp without going broke!
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      06-01-2012, 05:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
On the flip side there is so much design, testing and regulation work that depends on power level, its really one of the most fundamental specs of a car. These details lead me to side more with your speculation.
That is part of it. The bigger red flag in my mind is much more fundamental: there's a fixed release date for the car. So, while I am sure they set a performance target based on what they anticipate the competition will be doing at the time, there is absolutely nothing stopping the competition from simply waiting until the next day/week/month after the M3 specs are public and then releasing an even faster/better model. Therefore, the notion that the power will be set "when all the competitors have put their cards on the table" is nonsense. Competitors never put all their cars on the table. There's always something better coming, so as a business you don't wait around until the last minute waiting to release your product. You do your best to pick a target, and then market the pants off of it once it is ready.

Quote:
The power to weight will almost for sure not exceed the F10 M5 (too much power and too little weight would do that)
What was the power/weight improvement for the E60 M5 to the F10 M5? I would expect the F80 M3 to see about the same percentage-wise vs the E90 M3.
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      06-01-2012, 07:28 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
That is part of it. The bigger red flag in my mind is much more fundamental: there's a fixed release date for the car. So, while I am sure they set a performance target based on what they anticipate the competition will be doing at the time, there is absolutely nothing stopping the competition from simply waiting until the next day/week/month after the M3 specs are public and then releasing an even faster/better model. Therefore, the notion that the power will be set "when all the competitors have put their cards on the table" is nonsense. Competitors never put all their cars on the table. There's always something better coming, so as a business you don't wait around until the last minute waiting to release your product. You do your best to pick a target, and then market the pants off of it once it is ready.



What was the power/weight improvement for the E60 M5 to the F10 M5? I would expect the F80 M3 to see about the same percentage-wise vs the E90 M3.
According to post #2, it was 4%. If we go by that, and assuming the next M3 is lighter, then it would be around the same if not less hp than the current model.
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      06-01-2012, 09:31 AM   #11
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According to post #2, it was 4%. If we go by that, and assuming the next M3 is lighter, then it would be around the same if not less hp than the current model.
My apologies for missing that.

I think swamp's second guess of 3600lbs and 450hp for the F80 is a very good one. I realize that is more than a 4% improvement vs. the current car's 8.81 lb/hp (though that figure is for the E92, not the E90 which is slightly heavier), but irrespective of that, it gives the F10 M5 with 7.66 lb/hp about the right amount of breathing room IMHO.
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      06-01-2012, 12:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
My apologies for missing that.

I think swamp's second guess of 3600lbs and 450hp for the F80 is a very good one. I realize that is more than a 4% improvement vs. the current car's 8.81 lb/hp (though that figure is for the E92, not the E90 which is slightly heavier), but irrespective of that, it gives the F10 M5 with 7.66 lb/hp about the right amount of breathing room IMHO.
You are on to something there...

The other thing to consider is that the M5 has been repositioned in the sense that it is now larger and more luxurious than ever before. M said they would not make an M7 (M Performance is coming BTW) because it is too large to be a true track car but with the F10 that is really what they have done.

That said, the M3 is what they race, the M3 is what is positioned against the true sports cars so it may be in Ms marketing decisions to reposition the M3 (and if you read what they are saying about it being their "performance halo") as the model they no longer hold back on.

I've been told that the new F80 is a game changer on many levels. The M3 CRT was a hint at the future with its 450hp and 150lbs less weight yielding an impressive 7.7lbs/hp. That seems like a nice round number
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      06-01-2012, 02:26 PM   #13
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I agree with most here. I do think the M5 changes give some insight about the percentage improvements. However, I also think, as Mapezzul pointed out, the M3 is the drivers car of the M division. It is their "meat and potatoes" car, and will be more likely to undergo significant technological advancements (compared especially to the M5 changes). I would bet we will see an F80 M3/4 with sub 3500lb weights and >/=450hp. Also, the tri turbo inline 6 making 450ft/lbs at <1500rpm. 0-60 runs in 3.5-3.8 sec range and maybe even fuel economy in the 17-25 range (please).

Overall, will be a winner and continue to set the benchmark!
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      06-01-2012, 02:43 PM   #14
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Given the fact that the new M3 will probably be significantly lighter than the old M3 (lighter engine than the old V8 + carbon technology they showcased with the M3 CRT), I would say the 320-335kW (430-440hp - more likely 440hp) would be a good figure.So I think the new M3 will have very close to 440hp. I fact, I can't make my mind between 430 and 440
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      06-01-2012, 08:25 PM   #15
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This is nonsense!
To elicit the N54 more than 360 hp stable, you have to do something more than just playing in the software.
Alpina itself is struggling with the 400 hp in the B3S! Since it is already very close to the limits of what can be done with the engine.

In addition, manufacturers have different ideas of what it means durable.
The engine must retrieve his power anytime, anywhere permanently. Whether it's at sea level at -60 C in Sweden, or at +60 C at 3,000 meters above the Death Valley.

And I can guarantee that a N54 creates even with modifications under these conditions, no 450 hp without going broke!
Not sure what you are talking about.

~400-420 BHP is what you get with a JB4 and no other mods.

ETA: and the only "durability" problems have been related to BMW design flaws, not increased power.
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      06-01-2012, 09:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kueks29 View Post
This is nonsense!
To elicit the N54 more than 360 hp stable, you have to do something more than just playing in the software.
Alpina itself is struggling with the 400 hp in the B3S! Since it is already very close to the limits of what can be done with the engine.

In addition, manufacturers have different ideas of what it means durable.
The engine must retrieve his power anytime, anywhere permanently. Whether it's at sea level at -60 C in Sweden, or at +60 C at 3,000 meters above the Death Valley.

And I can guarantee that a N54 creates even with modifications under these conditions, no 450 hp without going broke!
This is not true, to achieve 400 bhp all you need to do is tune the car. If one adds bolt ons, the N54 can easily make 450bhp.
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      06-05-2012, 09:45 AM   #17
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I'm hoping that ///M blows us out of the water with a power/weight ratio around 7. That would set the bar pretty damn high for the competitors.
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      06-07-2012, 01:50 AM   #18
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I'm hoping that ///M blows us out of the water with a power/weight ratio around 7. That would set the bar pretty damn high for the competitors.
That is utterly unfeasbile. Not impossible technically but BMW simply will not release the car with that much power and little weight.
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      06-12-2012, 02:21 AM   #19
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Since they are going turbo I'm willing to bet they will try to limit engine size as much as possible. Probably stay with 3L engine. This will keep gas mileage up and provide thicker cylinder walls than would 3.2L give. All this to support higher boost levels.

Also if you look at previous models; M3s were always within 17-20% of M5s..

This puts us in 450-460hp as most rumors were going.

My prediction:

3LTT
460hp
3450lb
17/26
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      06-12-2012, 05:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ///M 95 View Post
to achieve 400 bhp all you need to do is tune the car. If one adds bolt ons, the N54 can easily make 450bhp.
+1 Very true, plus the M3 will have all the bits that makes it an "M" a more free flowing head, less restriction of intake & exhaust (DPs included), a better cooling system, not to mention it most likely will have better turbos to give it that extra top end performance that the stock N54 turbos don't have.

So essentially a like-for-like comparison would be an N54+FBO+tune+ RB Turbos...= 450hp not even trying

Speaking of competitors, are any of them boosting?
RS4, i just read the new RS4 avant will have 450hp 4.2L V8
C63, I thought i read that they were not going to put in the 5.5LTT and they were sticking NA for the C63
ISF, still a 5.0 V8 as far as I can tell

F10 M5 with 7.66 lb/hp
F80 M3 3500lbs & 525hp (ecu tuned) = 6.66 lb/hp

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      06-12-2012, 06:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
I've been told that the new F80 is a game changer on many levels. The M3 CRT was a hint at the future with its 450hp and 150lbs less weight yielding an impressive 7.7lbs/hp. That seems like a nice round number
This guy knows what he's talking about. I can't agree more with him.


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Originally Posted by malter2.0 View Post
My prediction:

3LTT
460hp
3450lb
17/26
Seems a little optimistic. I think somewhere between 440-450 BHP and no less than 3550-3600 lb
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You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      06-13-2012, 12:49 AM   #22
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3.3ltr.
450hp
3.200lbs

no N54!
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