BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-11-2012, 03:59 AM   #67
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
249
Rep
10,322
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MML View Post
It might not be because buyers care about the fuel efficiency, but because the manufacturers care about the figures, whether to bring down the fleet average or for marketing/image/PR.
But the ratio of M3s sold to 3er or 5ers is so low even a major difference in the efficiency of the M3 up or down will not affect the fleet numbers in any significant fashion. PR/marketing/image are relevant, penalties for fleet average not.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      07-11-2012, 04:01 AM   #68
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
249
Rep
10,322
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peteypab2133 View Post
I will take a bump in HP over the drop in weight.
Really? Lower weight gives you better straight line speed, better handling and performance in the twisties and better fuel efficiency. Higher hp only gives you one of those and hurts another one. Lower weight makes so much more sense for a car like the M3.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      07-11-2012, 04:21 AM   #69
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
France
224
Rep
3,880
Posts

Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Dreilšndereck

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Really? Lower weight gives you better straight line speed, better handling and performance in the twisties and better fuel efficiency. Higher hp only gives you one of those and hurts another one. Lower weight makes so much more sense for a car like the M3.

His sig of a Lancer EVO tells everything about him.
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2012, 09:42 AM   #70
Peteypab2133
Private First Class
3
Rep
194
Posts

Drives: 2013 GT500 on order / E90 325
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Highland Heights KY

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
His sig of a Lancer EVO tells everything about him.
Sold that car sir. I also have a 3 series, and a 2013 GT500.

I am about performance. Not sniffing my own farts

And if you look at my other threads, I was in the process of buying a 2011.5 m3 vert and after a few test drives realized it was only a few ticks faster than my E90.. Which is pretty slow. I wanted a big boy car with big boy power.


Oh and my evo only weighed in at 2990 with 1/4 tank of gas making 710 awhp.
__________________


2013 GT500 + 2006 E90
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2012, 10:12 AM   #71
Levi
Brigadier General
Levi's Avatar
France
224
Rep
3,880
Posts

Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Dreilšndereck

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peteypab2133 View Post
Sold that car sir. I also have a 3 series, and a 2013 GT500.

I am about performance. Not sniffing my own farts

And if you look at my other threads, I was in the process of buying a 2011.5 m3 vert and after a few test drives realized it was only a few ticks faster than my E90.. Which is pretty slow. I wanted a big boy car with big boy power.


Oh and my evo only weighed in at 2990 with 1/4 tank of gas making 710 awhp.
I'm not against it. Just saying you are not the type of guy that would drive a Miata. The first M3 E30 was in some way a practical MX-5. Now the M3 is becoming a sort of GT-R, because that is what most want, including you yourself. I have nothing against it, but that was not the main pupose of the original M3. Times are changing, today most judge cars by their 1/4 mile times. The drivers cars, including the current M3 E92, are disappearing.
Appreciate 0
      07-13-2012, 10:16 AM   #72
Red Bread
Brigadier General
United_States
78
Rep
4,688
Posts

Drives: My wife's car
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I'm still holding out hope that the M2 will be closer to the E36 and E46 M3's. Of course I've also been patiently waiting for a Z2 for, oh, about a decade now.
Appreciate 0
      07-18-2012, 03:10 PM   #73
PaneristiDriver
Banned
1
Rep
130
Posts

Drives: M3 Coupe
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Here and there

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It would be a huge achievement to deliver this weight. But power to weight would not be surprising at all.

I don't generally think Automobile Magazine is a good reference for solid rumors, perhaps others can clarify that claim.

Some discussion:

1. The current EU spec 6MT E92 M3 has an unladen weight of 3649 lb (1655 kg) subtracting 220 lb from that is 3429 lb which is way over 3300 lb. Thus they have some basic facts incorrect here. The unladen weight of the F32 335i is 3329 lb. Either way sub 3300 lb seems very optimistic given the large number of components which must be heavier in "upgrading" from the base model to the M model. It would take some very expensive materials and technology to overcome the certain weight gains (engine, suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, subframes, differential, transmission, etc.) This thread has a variety of guesses and educated guesses on the cars weight and none get to (or sub) 3300.

2. Power to weight. Power to weight numbers would be reasonable with this very low weight and relatively lower power (than thus far rumored).
Current M3 Coupe: 8.81 lb/hp.
From article: 420 hp, 3300 lb: 7.86 lb/hp
11% improvement

Lets compare to the M5
F10 5: 7.66 lb/hp
E60 M5: 7.96 lb/hp
Only a 4% increase

Some reasonable F30 M3 power and weight guesses:

3500 lb, 450 hp
7.78 lb/hp
That is within 1% of the 7.86 lb/hp figure!

3600 lb, 450 hp
8.00 lb/hp

Thus the 7.86 figure of the article is definitely "in the ball park". I would certainly rather have the lighter, lower power solution as it would make it a much better car. I just don't see how they can achieve this without some really expensive (cost prohibitive) materials.
3. Power per liter. The current Porsche turbo has 500 hp from 3.8l. That is 132 hp/l. The GT-R has as 545 hp (stated, have not kept up as to how much if any the car is under rated. The initial GT-R was clearly under rated by about 50 hp) from the same 3.8l. That is 143 hp/l. 420 hp from 3.0l would be in between the two at 140 hp/l. Certainly not out of the realm of a production vehicle.

The great thing is that BMW absolutely can (and likely will, as the article mentions) wait to see where other competitors might be coming in in terms of power and weight and simply change a few lines of code, dialing in the desired (i.e. competition besting power level). Just like the M-DCT from the E92 M3 (and all subsequent DCTs...) the software is critically important.
BMW will probably have ~130 hp per liter from the M3/4 turbo engine.

Lets also not forget that what Porsche has in output from the turbo is far, far from what they can push. The GT2 RS is a 3.6 liter with 620 hp, or 172 hp per liter. They could easily make 600+ hp from that same 3.8 liter with conservative tuning. Their cars dont need all the hp though as they put power down far better than any other manuf. in the industry.
Appreciate 0
      07-18-2012, 04:11 PM   #74
StealYourFace
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
69
Rep
1,521
Posts

Drives: 2006 330i sport
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Shakedown Street, Buffalo NY

iTrader: (1)

That's lighter than an e46 if true. anything under 3500 will be a great advance.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-19-2012, 10:01 AM   #75
richardg
Major
richardg's Avatar
52
Rep
1,381
Posts

Drives: e36M / e92M / e36 328i
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bloomfield Hills Mi.

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peteypab2133 View Post
I cannot imagine the car dropping 220+ pounds. That is A LOT of weight. I remember yanking my evo apart and cutting bolts shorter and removing crash beams and still only got about 95 pounds out of the car. With standards from the government, if the car loses weight I would be impressed.

Remember, with cheaper parts comes louder road noise, humming and other annoying things that the M3 currently does not have.

If they do manage to lose 220+ pounds, they would have to use MORE carbon fiber... More CF = more $$ I will take a bump in HP over the drop in weight.
I would rather have both. lol For the money though I would rather have a 75-80k m3 that is 3500lbs with 470+hp and one that is 90k-95k+ and 3300 lbs. I must admit money is a factor to me.
Appreciate 0
      07-19-2012, 10:44 AM   #76
Peteypab2133
Private First Class
3
Rep
194
Posts

Drives: 2013 GT500 on order / E90 325
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Highland Heights KY

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by richardg View Post
I would rather have both. lol For the money though I would rather have a 75-80k m3 that is 3500lbs with 470+hp and one that is 90k-95k+ and 3300 lbs. I must admit money is a factor to me.
I would love both too! The GTR does just fine being a bit over weight.. I think with proper suspension (the M3 will have it) and a well tuned engine (the M3 will have it as well) I think it can overcome the weight issues.

The Zl1 does pretty good around the track and it weighs over 4000 pounds.

Money is a factor with these cars, and if they start hitting $90,000 you would be a fool to not get the GTR or a ZR1 or Viper.
__________________


2013 GT500 + 2006 E90
Appreciate 0
      07-16-2015, 01:16 AM   #77
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
249
Rep
10,322
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Let's really revisit a topic from the past. About 3 years ago I did this rough calculation that BMW could save about 300 lb in the F8X M3 by going to an all CF chassis (read whole thread). Seems like that calculation was very reasonable in comparison to the 286 lb saved in the new CF 7 series chassis. Although this weight difference is not only due to the chassis alone but it is the largest component of the savings. My rough calculation also assumed a nearly complete CF chassis, which clearly is not the case here with the 7 series either. These errors/approximations are both consistent with the <300 lb actual achievement.

7 series info here on CF chassis.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      07-16-2015, 03:27 AM   #78
tareemaa
Bimmer Fanatic
United_States
68
Rep
1,099
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (2)

^ good info

I think the BMW engineers knew how much weight savings was possible with going the current route that the held on on purpose, I would bet that the next one will have a the CF chassis.
Appreciate 0
      07-16-2015, 04:13 AM   #79
Jimjamz
Private First Class
Jimjamz's Avatar
Australia
51
Rep
130
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 MG/SO
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tareemaa
^ good info

I think the BMW engineers knew how much weight savings was possible with going the current route that the held on on purpose, I would bet that the next one will have a the CF chassis.
Next gen M3 (beyond the F80) will absolutely have a 'Carbon Core' association.
__________________
----------------------------------
2001 E46 330i Sedan
2007 E92 335i Coupe
2014 F80 M3 Sedan
Appreciate 0
      07-16-2015, 10:10 PM   #80
CanAutM3
Major General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
784
Rep
6,580
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.25]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Let's really revisit a topic from the past. About 3 years ago I did this rough calculation that BMW could save about 300 lb in the F8X M3 by going to an all CF chassis (read whole thread). Seems like that calculation was very reasonable in comparison to the 286 lb saved in the new CF 7 series chassis. Although this weight difference is not only due to the chassis alone but it is the largest component of the savings. My rough calculation also assumed a nearly complete CF chassis, which clearly is not the case here with the 7 series either. These errors/approximations are both consistent with the <300 lb actual achievement.

7 series info here on CF chassis.
Hey bud, great to have you back .
__________________
2015 F82 M4
Silverstone / Silverstone / DCT / EDC
MPE / CF Diffuser / CF Mirror caps
Appreciate 0
      07-17-2015, 12:40 AM   #81
VCP
Major
VCP's Avatar
Canada
124
Rep
1,059
Posts

Drives: F82 Sakhir / E92 Dakar
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Canada

iTrader: (0)

Lol WTF? Lol
Appreciate 0
      07-18-2015, 01:24 PM   #82
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
249
Rep
10,322
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Hey bud, great to have you back .
Been a bit more active here again.

Does the new ride still bring a grin every time you open the door and sit down?
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      07-19-2015, 08:49 AM   #83
CanAutM3
Major General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
784
Rep
6,580
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [4.25]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Does the new ride still bring a grin every time you open the door and sit down?
It is very enjoyable. BMW have managed to make a car that is both a better daily driver and a better track car than the E9X was, further expanding what the M3(4) is all about. I reach speeds 10mph faster on the back straight of our local track that what I did in my E92 (146mph vs 136mph), which isn't negligible. I was also able to beat my best time by 0.5s on my first time out, which is quite telling.

However, even if the engine is much more potent than the S65, I do find the S55 lacks a little soul. It does not give me the feeling that I am driving something special every time I hop into the car as the S65 did. But paired with thr MPE, the S55 does sound decent enough.
__________________
2015 F82 M4
Silverstone / Silverstone / DCT / EDC
MPE / CF Diffuser / CF Mirror caps
Appreciate 0
      07-20-2015, 10:30 AM   #84
turbo8765
Captain
18
Rep
673
Posts

Drives: very fast
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Let's really revisit a topic from the past. About 3 years ago I did this rough calculation that BMW could save about 300 lb in the F8X M3 by going to an all CF chassis (read whole thread). Seems like that calculation was very reasonable in comparison to the 286 lb saved in the new CF 7 series chassis. Although this weight difference is not only due to the chassis alone but it is the largest component of the savings. My rough calculation also assumed a nearly complete CF chassis, which clearly is not the case here with the 7 series either. These errors/approximations are both consistent with the <300 lb actual achievement.

7 series info here on CF chassis.
Am I wrong to assume the magnitude of the 7 series weight loss is similarly overstated by BMW?

The M3 lost a small fraction of the weight BMW claimed it would (see post #1).
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
f80 m3, f80 m3 forum, rumors

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:05 AM.




f80post
f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST