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      09-14-2012, 08:54 AM   #177
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N55 guys: does anyone see a power steering fluid reservoir on the F80 M3? (is it the little receptacle in the back of the engine)? If there is a reservoir, then it's not EPS and is hydraulic.
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      09-14-2012, 08:58 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by ri335i View Post
Air-to-liquid (let's not assume it's water) are superior to air-to-air for a few reasons. Namely, much less plumbing between the turbo and TB (significantly less lag) and much higher thermal efficiency.

They're more complicated and heavier than air-to-air, which is why they aren't that ubiquitous.

IMHO - this is a huge win.

My big fear was that this car would be a street queen given the turbo engine/resulting heat issues. A2L goes a long way to making this a trackable car.
How's running hot coolant to cool the intake air temp more effective than a fmic that's exposed to much cooler temps (relative wind) than hot coolant?
A2L radiator is exposed to the same level of ambient cooling as a FMIC but has the benefit of a much denser substrate to extract heat from.

Run it hard enough and you may reduce that effect, but by that point, the ship has long sailed on the usefulness of an FMIC.
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      09-14-2012, 09:59 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by ri335i View Post
A2L radiator is exposed to the same level of ambient cooling as a FMIC but has the benefit of a much denser substrate to extract heat from.

Run it hard enough and you may reduce that effect, but by that point, the ship has long sailed on the usefulness of an FMIC.

I guess WRX/STI drivers wont be the only ones carrying ice bags.
The N55 already run hotter than most engines,In a cramped engine the water can easily be heat soaked especialy at low speed high rpm situations with AC on in the A2L unless the water is circulated through an ice tank or iced down.
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      09-14-2012, 10:17 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
I guess WRX/STI drivers wont be the only ones carrying ice bags.
The N55 already run hotter than most engines,In a cramped engine the water can easily be heat soaked especialy at low speed high rpm situations with AC on in the A2L unless the water is circulated through an ice tank or iced down.
Subie's don't have an A2L intercooler, they just have a TMIC.
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      09-14-2012, 10:23 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by crzy4135i View Post
I'll bet the V-8 M3s become collector cars in a few years.
Maybe. High production numbers count against it but newer, low mile ones could start to stabilize down the road.

I'm just imagining how immense the 4.0 would be in a 500lb lighter car, or what the bored out 4.4 feels like with 200lbs less
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      09-14-2012, 10:40 AM   #182
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Quote:
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Subie's don't have an A2L intercooler, they just have a TMIC.
I've never said they did...having the intake manifold air to water intercooler on top of the engine in autocross (low speed,high rpm) i speculate it will demand some icing down as well.
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      09-14-2012, 10:56 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
I've never said they did...having the intake manifold air to water intercooler on top of the engine in autocross (low speed,high rpm) i speculate it will demand some icing down as well.
I'm sure it will benefit from it, but it also will likely have a lot less heat soak issues than the Subies, and should still have less than the N54/N55 cars which only have air to air intercooling.
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      09-14-2012, 11:07 AM   #184
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When the tuners get a hold of the new ///M Watch out!!!!! Think about how Nissan GT-R which can outperform most supercars when properly tuned.
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      09-14-2012, 11:21 AM   #185
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How's running hot coolant to cool the intake air temp more effective than a fmic that's exposed to much cooler temps (relative wind) than hot coolant?
Erm think you have it all wrong....an liquid to air intercooler has its own liquid radiator(s), not the engine coolant.

Air/air is the cheapest solution as it doesn't involve water pumps, electrics, fluid tanks etc, but in an installation like the M3 the liquid cooled IC is superior.
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      09-14-2012, 11:24 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
N55 guys: does anyone see a power steering fluid reservoir on the F80 M3? (is it the little receptacle in the back of the engine)? If there is a reservoir, then it's not EPS and is hydraulic.
The tank at the back of the engine is almost certainly the IC fluid tank....see the pipe that goes into the IC from it?
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      09-14-2012, 12:21 PM   #187
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That brace looks like arse. Looks like it was made with parts form Home Depot. Hope they do something about that. Regardless this engine bay looks to be incredibly difficult to work on.
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      09-14-2012, 12:38 PM   #188
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BMW 2014 F80 M3 Engine (Turbo Inline 6) Physically Exposed!

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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Sort of true, but the S14 is still an M10 block with M88 heads with two cylinders removed. Semantics really, but the block and 150% of the head was used in all sorts of BMW's.
Not to hijack but please tell me what other cars??
I said it was basically the same engine that was in the M5/6 or the period, but what else?

There might have been derivations of the engine used in other cars but the intake was unique to M cars with individual throttle bodies. The valve train was unique and used shim and bucket. They didn't share cam's with anything else.
Even the thermostat setup was different.

The S14 didn't show up in any other car.

The latter six cylinder M3 cars shared engines components with all other 6 cyl cars from the period.
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      09-14-2012, 12:46 PM   #189
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dude, that intercooler looks cool, in a nerdy sort of way
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      09-14-2012, 12:59 PM   #190
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BMW 2014 F80 M3 Engine (Turbo Inline 6) Physically Exposed!

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Originally Posted by speedfan View Post
Not many of us here can extract all of 240hp out of the e36 m3, let alone 450hp f80 m3.

What I care the most is the weight, the steering feel, & on & off track performance. The rest is just useless bragging rights.

Cant wait to see the official specs & the actual car in person. I was gonna jump boat to Porsche on the next car, but the more news about the F80 m3, the more I like it.

BMW, Keep the weight of your pigs down please !!!
I agree. I owned an e30 and an e36.
The e36 got wrecked and I walked away and sold it to my mechanic.
He got a clean title and I got my insurance check and a check from him.
That being said, I run out of road long before I run out of car. My 335 will get the PPK, 19's then all the suspension mods I can afford.
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      09-14-2012, 01:01 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3

I've never said they did...having the intake manifold air to water intercooler on top of the engine in autocross (low speed,high rpm) i speculate it will demand some icing down as well.
You need to read up in A2W inter cooling. Doesn't matter where the inter cooler is, as that's just the exchange to cool the intake charge via the cooling medium. The cooling of the actual liquid takes place in a front mounted radiator. He circuit is separate from the engine coolant circuit.

Benefit is the intercooler can be placed anywhere and does not need direct exposure to airflow. The intake piping does not need to run through the lower front. Benefits there are obvious. Drawbacks: need separate radiator to chill cooling liquid, ppm and lines.

BTW GM's LS9 has an A2W intercooler mounted on the top of the engine just below the blower.
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      09-14-2012, 01:30 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by techwhiz View Post
Not to hijack but please tell me what other cars??
I said it was basically the same engine that was in the M5/6 or the period, but what else?

There might have been derivations of the engine used in other cars but the intake was unique to M cars with individual throttle bodies. The valve train was unique and used shim and bucket. They didn't share cam's with anything else.
Even the thermostat setup was different.

The S14 didn't show up in any other car.

The latter six cylinder M3 cars shared engines components with all other 6 cyl cars from the period.
You are correct that the S14 was not used in another car, but what I was saying is that the block was the same as the M10 and the heads were the same as the M88 with two cylinders removed. So 90% of the motor was based on production stock used in millions of other BMW's, much like the S50, S52 and S54 motors, which also had unique cams and individual throttle bodies.

Don't forget that the M10 block was used in the turbocharged F1 motors that made 1,400+ hp. So while it was also used in more pedestrian cars, it was also used in much more advanced configurations than the S14.

The S14 did not really have any parts commonality with the M88/3 motor (note, not an S motor) from the M5/M6 and M1 aside from the cut down M88 head.
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      09-14-2012, 01:48 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by hector View Post
wow; thx. for the ultra-rapid response!! let me push my luck a little and ask this: if i'm in the market for a 4_ _ or 2_ _ when they're released in a year or so, is it likely that they will have the next-gen 6cyl. engines? feel free to tell me to shut up anytime, lol.
BMW just announced that a new "family" of engines is coming, starting with the new 3 cylinder debuting in Paris. The whole lineup will be changing moving forward as has been the understanding for a bit of time.
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      09-14-2012, 03:22 PM   #194
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My 2 cents. I do love my V8 but times are changing and I am actually quite happy that BMW choose to stick with the I6 configuration (stay with it's root/character so to speak) when many other companies are going with V6 for whatever reason. (Is BMW the only one left with the I6 configuration?) In a way, BMW is still retaining some ideal and this is a good thing. I6 would retain the smoothness and probably yield a high redline. I would have been utterly disappointed if they went with a V6. Things can always be worse so we should just enjoy this and wait to see the actual numbers before we bash BMW. Cheers!

Now we have Porsche with their turbo boxster 6, Nissan with their turbo V6, and BMW with their turbo I6. Would be interesting to see how these 6 cylinders engines distinguish themselves from each other.

That being said, I would love to see someone put/shoehorn the turbo V8 from the new M5 in that engine bay (just like every generation of M3/M5)
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      09-14-2012, 03:27 PM   #195
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BMW 2014 F80 M3 Engine (Turbo Inline 6) Physically Exposed!

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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
You are correct that the S14 was not used in another car, but what I was saying is that the block was the same as the M10 and the heads were the same as the M88 with two cylinders removed. So 90% of the motor was based on production stock used in millions of other BMW's, much like the S50, S52 and S54 motors, which also had unique cams and individual throttle bodies.

Don't forget that the M10 block was used in the turbocharged F1 motors that made 1,400+ hp. So while it was also used in more pedestrian cars, it was also used in much more advanced configurations than the S14.

The S14 did not really have any parts commonality with the M88/3 motor (note, not an S motor) from the M5/M6 and M1 aside from the cut down M88 head.
But just because they reused the block doesn't make the motor, pedestrian.
The motor is the sum of the parts and besides cam gears and maybe pistons it didn't share parts to any degree like the e36 and e4 motors.

A good S14 is expensive due to the part being fairly unique and the caft that BMW never made more than 15K road going cars in the complete production run from 1987 to the run was done.

Anyway, we digress. The e30 M3 with the S14 motor was a very unique car.
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      09-14-2012, 03:37 PM   #196
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Anyway, we digress. The e30 M3 with the S14 motor was a very unique car.
Agreed, 100%. The argument was made that the S14 was somehow more unique than the S50 or the S54, which I don't really feel is the case. All are good engines, and all are largely based on stock BMW engines, themselves no bad thing. The S65 is the only M3 engine to not be based largely on a regular production motor, and likely the last. What that means is entirely up to you to decide.
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      09-14-2012, 04:28 PM   #197
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2x Small turbos for low end tq and response
+ larger turbo for top end.

Seems like a variation of the BMW diesel motors.
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      09-14-2012, 04:49 PM   #198
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It will be interesting.

As far as the "let's wait and see how it performs" argument . We already know what a 450 hp M3 that weighs 150-200 lbs less performs like (CRT and GTS), and the new gen M3 will be larger and would be surprised if would achieve that type of weight reduction. So the performance figures given what we know are pretty much already known assuming 450 hp and -100/-150 lbs lighter. It won't likely be as fast as the M5 on straights based on power/weight (and product cannibalization prevention of M5 vs M3), but close to CRT/GTS (depending on how much weight is reduced). This would put the new version marginally quicker than existing (.1-.2 secs to 60, .4-.5 to quarter), torque advantage probably helps with power tracks, but larger size hinders smaller tighter tracks. GTS did N-ring in 7:48, so more likely around 7:52-7:55 for the new guy (8.05 for current gen, but that was pre DCT and ZCP). So small performance gain vs give up the V8...that's going to be the trade-off. With the current gen, a non-warranty voiding tune (no RPM limit raise), filter, pulley will get you about 430-440 hp, which will have very close performance wise to the new gen stock. New M3 can be modified for more HP, but ECU detecting PSI over- boost seems more likely to void warranty vs a tune on an NA engine (which rarelynhappens). This will present an interesting decision point for owners of the current gen considering moving to the new gen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e92zero View Post
My 2 cents. I do love my V8 but times are changing and I am actually quite happy that BMW choose to stick with the I6 configuration (stay with it's root/character so to speak) when many other companies are going with V6 for whatever reason. (Is BMW the only one left with the I6 configuration?) In a way, BMW is still retaining some ideal and this is a good thing. I6 would retain the smoothness and probably yield a high redline. I would have been utterly disappointed if they went with a V6. Things can always be worse so we should just enjoy this and wait to see the actual numbers before we bash BMW. Cheers!

Now we have Porsche with their turbo boxster 6, Nissan with their turbo V6, and BMW with their turbo I6. Would be interesting to see how these 6 cylinders engines distinguish themselves from each other.

That being said, I would love to see someone put/shoehorn the turbo V8 from the new M5 in that engine bay (just like every generation of M3/M5)
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