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      10-04-2012, 11:22 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmunro View Post
This makes no sense. How can the new generation M3 have only a slight power bump over the 1M. The 1M will definitely weigh less, and is a "lower tier" M car as well as being an "older generation." I don't believe the 420/395 numbers for a second.

Unfortunately the "whole package" arguement only sells so many cars in the era of hp wars. The Mustang GT surely sends shivers down the spine of most M3 drivers these days, especially when the Mustang GT has near M3 handling....
Agreed. A real HP # is a must if you want my money.
And the folks bashing the advantages of lb-ft have not spent a lot of time on a drag strip.
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      10-04-2012, 11:41 PM   #112
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This car does look fantastic, no doubt. I'm sure the interior will look good too. But the S65 is truly special, this will be a very tough call. The purity of the S65 vs.. the newer tech and refinement of the M4.

Regtardless it's 18 months away, I'm going to S/C my M3. I bought a JCW mini coupe to just keep the M3 pristine and lower miles.

This car with an S65 S/C motor. looks and UBER power and revs! Any takers the a tuner will attempt to do just that?
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      10-04-2012, 11:47 PM   #113
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Lol. I see what you did there !
I kid.
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      10-04-2012, 11:48 PM   #114
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We'll see, but from what I've read so far I'm glad to have a S65; not much appeal in a M3/4 engine if it's basically a tuned 335. The last V8 M3 will be an icon just like the last V10 M5.
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      10-05-2012, 12:41 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason

SUMMARY

To recap, here is an updated list of what we know about the F80/F82 so far:
  • Lighter than current M3
    • targeting E46 M3 weight
  • More powerful than current M3
    • approximately same HP, but around 100 lb-ft more torque (in range of 395 lb-ft)
  • Faster than current M3
  • More efficient than current M3
  • Powered by an inline 6 cylinder multi turbo engine (source, source)
  • Offered with optional or standard manual transmission
  • Electric Power Steering (completely reworked for precision for M3/M4)
  • Tires (from prototype) - Michelin Pilot Super Sport: 255/35/19 (front), 275/35/19 (rear)
  • Front styling to feature elements from the M6 and 1M coupe, with Air Curtain technology (our render)
  • Hood to feature power/vent bump
  • M3 Introduced late 2013 - early 2014 (concept debuts earlier)
  • M4 Introduced no earlier than late 2014

Stay tuned for more information on the F80 M3 sedan and keep track of our ongoing coverage: http://www.bimmerpost.com/m3/f30m3/
Remember what I have said below:

F30 will have a 3.2L L6 engine, ~440-450hp for MY14 model and ~470-480hp optional power pkg start to be available for either MY15 or MY16.

My friend works as an internship at BMW...

Last edited by iceman335; 10-05-2012 at 12:50 AM.
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      10-05-2012, 02:02 AM   #116
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Similar max power but more area under the torque curve coupled with ~300 lb. weight loss? I'll take it!
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      10-05-2012, 02:07 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The new engine will very likely redline in the 7500 rpm range (just a bit higher than the F10 M5). Similarly it should make constant torque to about 6500 rpm (the F10 M5 does so until almost 6000 rpm). However, 395 ft lb will make 420 hp at around only 5500 rpm. To not exceed a peak of 420 hp would require the torque to drop off steadily after 5000 rpm to only 315 ft lb at 7000 rpm along with a redline of 7000 rpm. Those simply do not seem like reasonable figures. If the engine makes torque and power curves anything like the M5 395 ft lb should make closer to 460 hp.
Where are you coming up with all this stuff? Are you pulling it out of your hat?

You need to put some substantive proof behind your "very likely" numbers because, if for no other reason, your conclusions conflict directly with what the moderator said and he has a direct line to the people who are making the car.
These are educated guesses, trends and calculations. I can provide some more "evidence" but you will have to decide for yourself. The numbers just don't make sense.

Redline: The M3's redline is typically a bit higher than the M5. The M3's engine often follows or is in some way a relative of the M5s engine but slightly improved in some small ways. The current M5 redlines at 7200 rpm. 7500 for the new M3/4 is a very reasonable estimate.

Look at the power and torque curves for the F10 M5, attached for your convenience (they are in SI units!). The curves for the new S55(?) should be fairly similar. No not identical but similar.

395 ft lb making 420 hp at ~5500 rpm is simple math, it MUST be the case, no if's and's or but's, since in US customary units:

hp = tq x rpm/5252

This is an exact equation, almost a definition and is true for all engines, exactly.

Plug this into MS Excel and start drawing some power and torque curves yourself! You just can't hit the stated numbers without either a very low redline and a strong tapering off of torque at about 5000 rpm or some very bizarrely shaped power or torque curves (perhaps impossible shapes...). Neither of these is a characteristic that will be typical nor desirable from a turbo charged M engine.

I really don't care if a moderator posted the figures or not. It is unlikely that they have a source any better than the rest of us. Ask him to name his source. Interwebs gossipers never to, thus the veracity or even likelihood of the claim can not really be established. It is up to us to use some basic math, logic and trends to see if the numbers make sense. Again in this case they don't. I would be willing to place a large wager that the actual (not stated by BMW, since they are known to underrate) specs of the car are not at all close to 395 ft lb and 420 hp. Either the power will be higher or torque lower.
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      10-05-2012, 02:12 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
how much weight can be saved with CFRP hood and trunk?
Not much since the existing hood on the E92 M3 is very thin lightweight aluminum with no sound insulation. However, the proper baseline is the F30 335i hood weight which will likely be steel. The total savings for each is on the order of 10 lbs, so about 20 lb total. Probably a very high price for only 20 lb savings. I think aluminum is much more likely than CF.
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      10-05-2012, 02:48 AM   #119
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SORRY ... but I donīt beleave that the redline of the S55(?) would be higher than the S63Tü redline ... and 7.500rpm no way !!!

If they choose the V6 I think 7.500rpm redline were an good target ... but with an N55 like I6 with its long stroke and its long crank its simply too costly by materials to reach this target.

I think we could be happy if they reach 7.000rpm ... and also this I donīt rally beleave.
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      10-05-2012, 03:03 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I really don't care if a moderator posted the figures or not. It is unlikely that they have a source any better than the rest of us. Ask him to name his source. Interwebs gossipers never to, thus the veracity or even likelihood of the claim can not really be established.
You make some fairly good points in this thread but this is unneccessary. I know the background of this information and it's legit as can be. We don't name the source for a reason.


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      10-05-2012, 03:39 AM   #121
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You make some fairly good points in this thread but this is unneccessary. I know the background of this information and it's legit as can be. We don't name the source for a reason.


Best regards,
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As I said ... very bad engine news, but sadly really the truth ... also Dr.Nitschke quotes in his last interview that the new M3 donīt need more hp.

Simple Marketing-Strategy to mask that in Reality they simply choose the cheapest engine and that could reach only ~420hp !!!
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      10-05-2012, 05:59 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaehshim
that makes sense, they can't just add more power and power and power
light weight + more torque, just about what M customers wanted
When has an m3 ever been torquey? Never that's when.
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      10-05-2012, 06:43 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by sycd View Post
We'll see, but from what I've read so far I'm glad to have a S65; not much appeal in a M3/4 engine if it's basically a tuned 335. The last V8 M3 will be an icon just like the last V10 M5.
And the V8 is "just" a V10 with 2 cylinders chopped off... While I respect the V10 just like any car enthusiast out there, where is it now? They've depreciated so much that they can be had for low $30k all day. Not to mention it gets SMOKED by the F10 M5 in every performance category, not to mention fuel economy.

At the very MINIMUM, the next gen M3 will at least match 414hp on paper. When has BMW EVER in the history of the company come out with equal or less HP on any engine it replaces? And if it's at the minimum 414, then I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually rated at closer to 440hp. Look at what N20, N55 and S63 engines are putting down on the dyno. Would then all the people here that say +400 hp is not enough be happy (since when is 400 not enough anyway)

Let's use some common sense around here.
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      10-05-2012, 08:21 AM   #124
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And the V8 is "just" a V10 with 2 cylinders chopped off... While I respect the V10 just like any car enthusiast out there, where is it now? They've depreciated so much that they can be had for low $30k all day. Not to mention it gets SMOKED by the F10 M5 in every performance category, not to mention fuel economy.

At the very MINIMUM, the next gen M3 will at least match 414hp on paper. When has BMW EVER in the history of the company come out with equal or less HP on any engine it replaces? And if it's at the minimum 414, then I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually rated at closer to 440hp. Look at what N20, N55 and S63 engines are putting down on the dyno. Would then all the people here that say +400 hp is not enough be happy (since when is 400 not enough anyway)

Let's use some common sense around here.
Spot on. The S85/S65 are lotsa fun, but it is impossible to deny the improvements of the next-gen FI engines. And 400HP is definitely plenty, unless you are a track junkie. Who is using up these 400HP+ on public roads? Not me.
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      10-05-2012, 08:51 AM   #125
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When has an m3 ever been torquey? Never that's when.
+1
I thought the M philosophy was to have just enough torque for the weight of the car.
A good example of how too much torque hurts handling in a RWD, is the C63 AMG.

More torque doesnt lower ET,lap times etc.that's why you dont see a lot 335d in the 11's at the dragstrip.

Look at F1 cars,they have over 700hp,geared for only 250 lb-ft or so of torque.
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      10-05-2012, 08:55 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
SORRY ... but I donīt beleave that the redline of the S55(?) would be higher than the S63Tü redline ... and 7.500rpm no way !!!

If they choose the V6 I think 7.500rpm redline were an good target ... but with an N55 like I6 with its long stroke and its long crank its simply too costly by materials to reach this target.

I think we could be happy if they reach 7.000rpm ... and also this I donīt rally beleave.
I agree 100% with swamp2's logic.

So far we know that current N55HP produces 330lb.ft from a low1200rpm-5000rpm. This is from a single turbo, clearly aimed at producing good low speed numbers.

The fact that it produces the same torque all the way from 1200-5000rpm indicates it is torque limited. (Engine torque restricted by ECU program, not by hardware). If this restricted running mode were removed you could expect a significant increase in peak torque. Maybe 360+ft.lb???? not far off the 395 stated for M3 (albeit at lower revs), and that is with a single turbo size matched for low speed performance, plus camshafts suited for low engine speed performance.

Rev limit on standard N55HP is 7000rpm - Indicates that basic engine is capable of withstanding these forces. Throw in full counter balance crank, forged conrods and lightweight pistons (Upgrades you would expect from M Power) and it is very easy to see an engine capable of at least 7,500rpm redline, plus a usable 7000rpm peak. M engine producing peak power at 5,500rpm??? Yeah right!

Lastly, the N20 4 cylinder engine is effectively an N55 with 2 cylinders less (1/3 displacement less). It is quoted at producing 245hp which, add the two cylinders to make up a 3.0litre I6 is 330hp (similar to N55HP's 315hp). However the true output is said to be higher than the rated 245, some suggest in the region of 260hp, which would be more like 347hp in 3.0litre format.

Anybody suggesting that the M Power team are only going to squeeze an extra 70hp out of an engine set up to produce good low rpm figures? Only 12hp per cylinder? ...........That's NUTS!!!!!

On a turbo charged engine, just changing the N55 turbo to a larger unit and sticking with the same boost pressure would gain this amount with no other mods.

M3 is going to have at least 2 turbo's which gives a clue that the turbo won't restrict power as much as N55.
No doubt more aggressive cams in M3 to lift power peak. All of these point to significantly higher than 420hp.

As for the info released being correct?.......OEM's 'leak' whatever info they want the public to hear prior to launch.

I want to thank swamp2 for a very informative post.....and offer a public apology to him for coming to the wrong conclusion about his engine knowledge. SORRY dude
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      10-05-2012, 09:13 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
I agree 100% with swamp2's logic.

So far we know that current N55HP produces 330lb.ft from a low1200rpm-5000rpm. This is from a single turbo, clearly aimed at producing good low speed numbers.

The fact that it produces the same torque all the way from 1200-5000rpm indicates it is torque limited. (Engine torque restricted by ECU program, not by hardware). If this restricted running mode were removed you could expect a significant increase in peak torque. Maybe 360+ft.lb???? not far off the 395 stated for M3 (albeit at lower revs), and that is with a single turbo size matched for low speed performance, plus camshafts suited for low engine speed performance.

Rev limit on standard N55HP is 7000rpm - Indicates that basic engine is capable of withstanding these forces. Throw in full counter balance crank, forged conrods and lightweight pistons (Upgrades you would expect from M Power) and it is very easy to see an engine capable of at least 7,500rpm redline, plus a usable 7000rpm peak. M engine producing peak power at 5,500rpm??? Yeah right!

Lastly, the N20 4 cylinder engine is effectively an N55 with 2 cylinders less (1/3 displacement less). It is quoted at producing 245hp which, add the two cylinders to make up a 3.0litre I6 is 330hp (similar to N55HP's 315hp). However the true output is said to be higher than the rated 245, some suggest in the region of 260hp, which would be more like 347hp in 3.0litre format.

Anybody suggesting that the M Power team are only going to squeeze an extra 70hp out of an engine set up to produce good low rpm figures? Only 12hp per cylinder? ...........That's NUTS!!!!!

On a turbo charged engine, just changing the N55 turbo to a larger unit and sticking with the same boost pressure would gain this amount with no other mods.

M3 is going to have at least 2 turbo's which gives a clue that the turbo won't restrict power as much as N55.
No doubt more aggressive cams in M3 to lift power peak. All of these point to significantly higher than 420hp.

As for the info released being correct?.......OEM's 'leak' whatever info they want the public to hear prior to launch.

I want to thank swamp2 for a very informative post.....and offer a public apology to him for coming to the wrong conclusion about his engine knowledge. SORRY dude
Even a simple Stage 2 Dinan tune produces 401 lb-ft in a N55
http://www.dinancars.com/shop/D900-3...55.aspx#page=1

Works GREAT for AutoCross
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      10-05-2012, 09:18 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz
Too little.
With n54 engines able to produce numbers in that range without a lot of work, this does not seem compelling. We are talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 65-70 large for one that isn't even maxed out with options.

Sorry, but the M5 got a real HP and torque bump.
This isn't anything to write home about. Not impressed......
+1 not impressed at all. looks like I'm going GTR after this lease is up.
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      10-05-2012, 09:23 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majdnoon
Its funny all the people complaining about not getting 450hp. Don't forget that the E36 M3 had "only" 240hp, yet today, nearly 20yrs after its inception it is still lauded as one of the best handling cars ever made.

The E92 may have had 414hp, but its competition (C63, RS4/5) had more ponies and torque when the E92 was brand new. And it still beat them in performance.

Even now, 6yrs after the E92 has been introduced, the meager 414hp is STILL able to compete with (and in some instances beat) the current C63, Boss 302, and other cars in its segment that are way up on power.

An M car isn't only about power, its about feel, and the complete package that BMW delivers of perfection through sheer work of superior engineering.

Now don't get me wrong, 450hp would be pretty nice, and I would love to see a bump in power in the new one. However, it isn't really NECESSARY if the new M3/4 is gonna drop 300lbs and gain 100ftlbs.

In the face of all the complaints, just think about this: when has the M division disappointed us?
When has M disappointed us?

Answer: By not making e46 sedan
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      10-05-2012, 09:26 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
I agree 100% with swamp2's logic.

So far we know that current N55HP produces 330lb.ft from a low1200rpm-5000rpm. This is from a single turbo, clearly aimed at producing good low speed numbers.

The fact that it produces the same torque all the way from 1200-5000rpm indicates it is torque limited. (Engine torque restricted by ECU program, not by hardware). If this restricted running mode were removed you could expect a significant increase in peak torque. Maybe 360+ft.lb???? not far off the 395 stated for M3 (albeit at lower revs), and that is with a single turbo size matched for low speed performance, plus camshafts suited for low engine speed performance.

Rev limit on standard N55HP is 7000rpm - Indicates that basic engine is capable of withstanding these forces. Throw in full counter balance crank, forged conrods and lightweight pistons (Upgrades you would expect from M Power) and it is very easy to see an engine capable of at least 7,500rpm redline, plus a usable 7000rpm peak. M engine producing peak power at 5,500rpm??? Yeah right!

Lastly, the N20 4 cylinder engine is effectively an N55 with 2 cylinders less (1/3 displacement less). It is quoted at producing 245hp which, add the two cylinders to make up a 3.0litre I6 is 330hp (similar to N55HP's 315hp). However the true output is said to be higher than the rated 245, some suggest in the region of 260hp, which would be more like 347hp in 3.0litre format.

Anybody suggesting that the M Power team are only going to squeeze an extra 70hp out of an engine set up to produce good low rpm figures? Only 12hp per cylinder? ...........That's NUTS!!!!!

On a turbo charged engine, just changing the N55 turbo to a larger unit and sticking with the same boost pressure would gain this amount with no other mods.

M3 is going to have at least 2 turbo's which gives a clue that the turbo won't restrict power as much as N55.
No doubt more aggressive cams in M3 to lift power peak. All of these point to significantly higher than 420hp.

As for the info released being correct?.......OEM's 'leak' whatever info they want the public to hear prior to launch.

I want to thank swamp2 for a very informative post.....and offer a public apology to him for coming to the wrong conclusion about his engine knowledge. SORRY dude
I also agree with swamp2's comments on the power of this engine. Little chance makes just 414hp, and ZERO chance the redline will be sub-7k as doom and gloom merchant Uli keeps harping on about.

Finally, as repeated ad nauseam (and not aimed at you NisFan as I liked you post), 414 in and of itself is plenty but at this price point it's an insult to not offer more power. (yes, clearly M3s are abut more than just raw power or I wouldn't be driving one yada yada yada)
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      10-05-2012, 09:52 AM   #131
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Quote:
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I also agree with swamp2's comments on the power of this engine. Little chance makes just 414hp, and ZERO chance the redline will be sub-7k as doom and gloom merchant Uli keeps harping on about.

One point though, remember the 335i is a twin turbo setup not a single turbo. However, this does not alter the fact M divisions changes will be more than just a turbo swap.

Finally, as repeated ad nauseam (and not aimed at you NisFan as I liked you post), 414 in and of itself is plenty but at this price point it's an insult to not offer more power. (yes, clearly M3s are abut more than just raw power or I wouldn't be driving one yada yada yada)
"While its N54 predecessor uses parallel twin-turbochargers, the N55 uses a single twin scroll turbocharger."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N55
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      10-05-2012, 10:11 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
"While its N54 predecessor uses parallel twin-turbochargers, the N55 uses a single twin scroll turbocharger."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N55
Already edited you eagle eyed mbworlder Dang, it shows I was one minute behind your post, I'm now liable to tarred and heathered through no fault of my own.

Since I'm posting, I forgot to mention that the styling and weight rumors are beueno, but a 3.2tt 450bhp F82 is what will guarantee my 80k, preferably allied to the M3 name.
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