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      10-05-2012, 10:15 AM   #133
BIGTIME
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Why would BMW bring a 450bhp M3 but only clain it had 420bhp? I don't get all this 'it will make more power than quoted'.Wouldn't BMW sell more cars if based on the headline HP figure?
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      10-05-2012, 10:19 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by KG3356MT View Post
+1 not impressed at all. looks like I'm going GTR after this lease is up.
Sorry for the slightly OT post.

My M3 lease is up in August 2013, so I'm also trying to figure out my next step. Aside from performance, could you live with a GT-R? I've asked myself the same thing and I'm not sure I could. The GT-R is great, don't get me wrong. But, the interior is pitifully subpar and tiny. My previous car was a 335ix and I seriously considered the GT-R, but ended up with the M3. Keep in mind, my M3 is my DD; I don't have another car.
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      10-05-2012, 11:10 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
And the V8 is "just" a V10 with 2 cylinders chopped off... While I respect the V10 just like any car enthusiast out there, where is it now? They've depreciated so much that they can be had for low $30k all day. Not to mention it gets SMOKED by the F10 M5 in every performance category, not to mention fuel economy. .
The E60 M5's achilles' heel was the SMG gearbox...anyone who has driven one vs the newer DCTs knows exactly I'm talking about in terms of slow shifting and delayed response. If the V10 had been mated to the DCT, the performance would be very close and the E60 would have been the more fun car to drive.
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      10-05-2012, 11:14 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
how much weight can be saved with CFRP hood and trunk?
Carbon roof, trunk, hood (bonnet) and door panels should take away good 40kg (so a BMW engineer told me when I asked).
Apparently the price is still a trifle prohibitive.
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      10-05-2012, 12:15 PM   #137
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You guys are forgetting that m3 doesn't exist in its own little world. We saw rescently that competition closed on m5. Now c63 as of now have 480 ponies and it is still detuned! They can give it 590 ponies SLS GT have with a single phonecall. And dont forget that no bimmer in history sounded as mercs 6.2 beast.
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      10-05-2012, 12:37 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barische View Post
When has M disappointed us?

Answer: By not making e46 sedan
Not having an E46 sedan M3 wasnt a disappointment,the original M3 only came with 2 doors.


-Playing the engine note in the case of the new M5 through the stereo is a disappointment.
-The M5 used to be the benchmark,class leader...now it's usually placed in the middle of the pack. You even get reviewer referring to an M car engine as boring without a soul,exhibing turbo lag enough to drive around it.
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      10-05-2012, 01:02 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
I agree 100% with swamp2's logic.

I want to thank swamp2 for a very informative post.....and offer a public apology to him for coming to the wrong conclusion about his engine knowledge. SORRY dude
No probs. We had a good discussion and debate in the other thread and your post there was absolutely my "light bulb" to restate your conclusion there with just a bit more detail.

Something is fishy with the numbers for sure.
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      10-05-2012, 01:13 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antares View Post
Carbon roof, trunk, hood (bonnet) and door panels should take away good 40kg (so a BMW engineer told me when I asked).
Apparently the price is still a trifle prohibitive.
Sounds like a real upper limit on what could be saved. The existing hood weighs 10 kg and trunk weighs almost 11. Doors are 18 kg ea. Throw in an extra 5 kg for a steel instead of the light E92 aluminum hood and you have about 62 kg. If you cut 66% of the weight (very agressive design) you would save right around 41 kg, almost 100 lb.
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      10-05-2012, 01:34 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post

Swamp,

For years you have heralded the mighty horsepowaah!
But (once again) you prove you do not understand the importance of torque. I am almost certain you cannot abstractly read a dynograph/chart.. as the rate of acceleration in any vehicle, is directly tied to it's tq curve.



Fact^..
You cannot keep dismissing that & constantly remain ignorant of that fact. HP is only a static figure, it alone represent nothing!

Coincidentally, you have been embattled in this argument for 5+ years..(!!) & to constantly keep dismissing torque? Or to say it's nearly meaningless? Torque accounts for more of a cars characteristics, than horspepower does. It is the engine's ability to move mass (laymanistically). I know u can read a book, but HP is derived as a static figure of the actual work done at that moment... not about the ability to move that mass.. (ie: accelerate)


I know you keep your head into your sim software, but until you buy some premium stuff, that accounts for an artifical linear torque curve, then all u have is ur math, but no understanding. Do not dismiss the massive delta in available torque between the 1M & M3.

Around town (small tracks/streets), the 1M simply ownz the M3.!! Ironically, that is what is purpose is, the 1M's focus is handling. But there is a stark constrast in power delivery & performance between the 2. That is.. with 120hp difference.. it is only after 100mph (ubertracks/F1/nurb), that the long winded M3 get it's chance to outshine it's moAr focused sibling.


The deltas in the dynocharts tell the whole story, you can clearly see how much more grunt (ie: acceleration) is available just off idle on the N54, over the s65... lets not forget that the N54 is 1 liter smaller. If u don't understand any of this.. than compare the s54 (E46 M3) to the n54 (1M Coupe) and wrap ur head around torque please!



I shop torque, it tells much moAr of the story than any other engine statistic. Matter of fact, I am buying an M2 and I do not care what the HP figure is, as long as it close to 360ft-lbs of torque..!


MAX HORSPOWAAAHHH!! is marketing
Keep deluding yourself. Your are so far off it's barely worth a debate.

1. Power is inherently a dynamic concept, it is the rate of energy transfer. In no way is it "static figure". None of your touchy feely imprecise definitions above are correct or meaningful.
2. Crank torque is absolutely meaningless. It does not come into the equations for acceleration without gearing. Wheel torque is meaningful but torque proponents barely bother calculating it. You cannot "read" vehicle acceleration from a dyno curve. Show the actual equation/conversion then we will talk more about that.
3. It is always better to know a full curve rather than a single point. Either torque or hp along with rpm gives you the other. The complete information is there. If you need to stick to a single peak number hp is the one that will tell you very closely how fast the car will be. You can't say how fast it will be with the torque number, you just can't.
4. At any given speed if two cars weigh the same the one that produced the most power will out accelerate the other, PERIOD, INDISPUTABLE. This car that makes the most peak torque or the most instantaneous torque is utterly inconsequential. I know you probably can't handle the equations but this is from P = m x a x v.

The only way the 1M owns the M3 is when the M3 is driven improperly in the wrong gear. At the "wrong" rpm the M3 makes little torque which translates into little power. The 1M is kind of opposite. The 1Ms ability to produce good low rpm power does help is get off the line very quick, every bit as quick as the M3. Of course its lighter weight is very advantageous for handling and gives it an advantage on smaller tighter courses.

Overall the cars perform consistently with their (peak) power to weight ratio. Why, because that is the physics.

Until you understand the equations, the physics, make some spreadsheets, run some of your own simulations you just won't understand. It takes some work but you will be rewarded with a lot of insight when you do.
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      10-05-2012, 01:39 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGTIME View Post
Why would BMW bring a 450bhp M3 but only clain it had 420bhp? I don't get all this 'it will make more power than quoted'.Wouldn't BMW sell more cars if based on the headline HP figure?
It allows them to have a deceptive over achiever. It allows fan boys to say that their magic 50-50 weight balance and UFO like chassis allows it to beat down competitors with a better power to weight ratio.

The new car WILL make more power than the existing car. It is just a question of how much more and likely under rating.
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      10-05-2012, 01:51 PM   #143
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Agree with the 7500k rpm redline as wishful thinking from an I6 vs. V8 7200k.. more likely it will be lower.

HP is the true measure of power. Torque@RPM is not really relevant, but HP@rpm is because in everyday situations you are at <2000rpm and not >6000.
Max. Torque or torque is an irrelavent number because you must multiplie it to RPM to get HP, which is the only measure of POWER or work done, in physics.
High torque at low RPM 'feels' more powefully because what you feel is the turbos coming on boost, which is simply the abrupt increase in power (HP) that is more smooth in NA engines. (feel of power=change in HP wrt time)
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      10-05-2012, 02:00 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
SORRY ... but I donīt beleave that the redline of the S55(?) would be higher than the S63Tü redline ... and 7.500rpm no way !!!

If they choose the V6 I think 7.500rpm redline were an good target ... but with an N55 like I6 with its long stroke and its long crank its simply too costly by materials to reach this target.

I think we could be happy if they reach 7.000rpm ... and also this I donīt rally beleave.
Interesting.

Let's look at piston speeds. US units, sorry Uli...

N55: 68.6 ft/s
S65: 69.1 ft/s
S63Tu: 70.1 ft/s

Thus non-stroked S55(?) at 7500 rpm: 73.5 ft/s
Stroked S55(?) to 3.2l at 7500 rpm: 78.4 ft/s

Ferrari 458: 79.7 ft/s

I know, I know don't compare BMW and Ferrari. That complaint falls flat though when looking at the S65, it is the closest to a Ferrari engine in any other production car.

From this I think it is fair to say that even a stroked 3.2l S55(?) could support a redline of 7500 rpm.

Of course there is the question of Valvetronic and its rpm limit. I've only heard rumors about that.
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      10-05-2012, 02:01 PM   #145
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I have learned a lot about trq/hp/wt reading comments in this thread!
To be honest, I personally don't believe in numbers on a spec sheet, but in the final/finished product.
For example, every time a new Audi is released, I get flattered with its specs and performance on paper.. And although I wouldn't buy one, I have test driven a couple lately (rs5 and ttrs) only to find out that the finished product/all parts put together IMO is not a translation of the promise on paper. I would say its always better to understate (hp claim) than to disappoint!
BMW M has never failed to impress and develop best in class cars within their segments, so I'm just waiting impatiently for the upcoming M-onster to hit the showrooms.
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      10-05-2012, 02:19 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Sounds like a real upper limit on what could be saved. The existing hood weighs 10 kg and trunk weighs almost 11. Doors are 18 kg ea. Throw in an extra 5 kg for a steel instead of the light E92 aluminum hood and you have about 62 kg. If you cut 66% of the weight (very agressive design) you would save right around 41 kg, almost 100 lb.
I was interested what a mixture of carbon and lightweight construction could and would bring to bigger cars, like 5er and 7er.
At the end it would be very nice to get a 7er that weights as much as the new F20 3er. Handling in everyday traffic would reach new levels.
However, there is always the price and a very slow progress in auto industry.
The investment in this lightweight would be very intense while the fuel problem at the opposite end (hydrogen cells or artificial oil) remains unsolved.

The fuel prices (heavily taxed here in Europe) are already having a heavy toll on work migration and "freedom" of driving. To manage to get independent from the tax hike would be a real revolution here
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      10-05-2012, 02:24 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
And the V8 is "just" a V10 with 2 cylinders chopped off... While I respect the V10 just like any car enthusiast out there, where is it now? They've depreciated so much that they can be had for low $30k all day. Not to mention it gets SMOKED by the F10 M5 in every performance category, not to mention fuel economy. .
The E60 M5's achilles' heel was the SMG gearbox...anyone who has driven one vs the newer DCTs knows exactly I'm talking about in terms of slow shifting and delayed response. If the V10 had been mated to the DCT, the performance would be very close and the E60 would have been the more fun car to drive.
Apply the SMG euro tune. ViolÃ*
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      10-05-2012, 02:34 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I hope 50/50 does go away it never was and never will be the best for a sports/sporty car. In the range of 45F/55R -> 40F/60R is superior from the perspective of many aspects of handling. Just more BMW marketing BS that many of us have accepted as gospel.
Those look like 911 numbers vice cayman's more 50, which is good to have weight on the rear driving wheels but creates a higher polar momentum inducing oversteer right? Isn't this the flaw with the 911?
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      10-05-2012, 02:37 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Not having an E46 sedan M3 wasnt a disappointment,the original M3 only came with 2 doors.


-Playing the engine note in the case of the new M5 through the stereo is a disappointment.
-The M5 used to be the benchmark,class leader...now it's usually placed in the middle of the pack. You even get reviewer referring to an M car engine as boring without a soul,exhibing turbo lag enough to drive around it.
I agree. Oh, and finishing last place to the S6 and E63 with Car and Driver.
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      10-05-2012, 02:43 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Hoosiers View Post
I agree. Oh, and finishing last place to the S6 and E63 with Car and Driver.
Car and driver (and Motor trend, basically the same) is a joke, the M3 beat out the 997TT in a test. Only UK Evo Magazine is worth respecting, though Autocar is pretty good too.
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      10-05-2012, 03:13 PM   #151
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Car and driver (and Motor trend, basically the same) is a joke, the M3 beat out the 997TT in a test. Only UK Evo Magazine is worth respecting, though Autocar is pretty good too.
I'll agree with you on Motortrend but Car and Driver is the New York Times of automotive journalism.
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      10-05-2012, 03:22 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Interesting.

Let's look at piston speeds. US units, sorry Uli...

N55: 68.6 ft/s
S65: 69.1 ft/s
S63Tu: 70.1 ft/s

Thus non-stroked S55(?) at 7500 rpm: 73.5 ft/s
Stroked S55(?) to 3.2l at 7500 rpm: 78.4 ft/s

Ferrari 458: 79.7 ft/s

I know, I know don't compare BMW and Ferrari. That complaint falls flat though when looking at the S65, it is the closest to a Ferrari engine in any other production car.

From this I think it is fair to say that even a stroked 3.2l S55(?) could support a redline of 7500 rpm.

Of course there is the question of Valvetronic and its rpm limit. I've only heard rumors about that.
I never said that its impossible, but high piston speeds in combination with high pressure turbos make problems were all this force come together ... at the crankshaft and its bearings ... and an longer crankshaft is in this case much more problematic than an shorter one ... remember the problems of the S54 with this parts. Also tortuosity could become an problem at an longstroke high-pressure turbo inline-6. with its long crankshaft.
Its expensive to reinforce the chrankshaft and the bearings so that they could withstand this forces ... esp. in longer times in use ... and I donīt know if BMW would do this, if cost-reduction is the main issue and they are of the opinion that 420hp are enough to be better as all competitors.
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      10-05-2012, 03:24 PM   #153
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You should play the lottery with that crystal ball of yours...
And why is that?
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      10-05-2012, 03:26 PM   #154
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Jesus, why all the panic? It's quite funny reading some of the comments, some of you sound like a bunch of bench racers. And where did that 420hp figure come from anyway? What was stated in the original post is that it should be in the ballpark of the E9X M3 (NO precise HP figures given), which seems to me like it was deliberately meant to create ambiguity. I don't get all the frantic conjecturing going on, we all know numbers only represent one side of the story, numbers which in this case are only ESTIMATES. The car still has a year and a half left for development if the date predictions are correct, so give it some time a little...
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