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      10-05-2012, 09:04 PM   #177
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I got both an E90 M3 and a 1M (both 6MT). And until very recently I also had an E46 M3.

E90 M3 vs 1M is very close.

I personally can pull about the same times on our local track maybe a second faster on the 1M. At this altitude (2,240Mts above sea level) the 1M will leave the M3 easily behind in any acceleration situation. But, the M3 is easier to drive at the limit (this is a fast track, not a short one) because the throttle response is two steps above the 1M and the chassis is more neutral and less prone to snap oversteer. The 1M is much twitchier, a lot of fun, but it takes an expert and/or ballsy driver to really take it to the limit on corners. The M3 is a lot easier. I have some driving skills, like a good amateur but not a pro (been to multiple schools).

Any difference in performance is academic between these two, any driver difference will be greater.

Most fun? The E46 bested them both but it was very noticeably slower (3-4 secs/lap). The 1M is really close in fun, the M3 maybe a half-step behind.

For daily driving the 1M is a lot more fun than the M3 because its power curve is so much more useable.
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      10-05-2012, 09:06 PM   #178
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One more thing regarding the topic of this thread.

I think BMW M can build a great turbo M3. Just keep the weight at most below that of the E90/92 and improve the throttle response over the 1M and you have a winner.
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      10-05-2012, 10:42 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico View Post
I got both an E90 M3 and a 1M (both 6MT). And until very recently I also had an E46 M3.

E90 M3 vs 1M is very close.

I personally can pull about the same times on our local track maybe a second faster on the 1M. At this altitude (2,240Mts above sea level) the 1M will leave the M3 easily behind in any acceleration situation. But, the M3 is easier to drive at the limit (this is a fast track, not a short one) because the throttle response is two steps above the 1M and the chassis is more neutral and less prone to snap oversteer. The 1M is much twitchier, a lot of fun, but it takes an expert and/or ballsy driver to really take it to the limit on corners. The M3 is a lot easier. I have some driving skills, like a good amateur but not a pro (been to multiple schools).

Any difference in performance is academic between these two, any driver difference will be greater.

Most fun? The E46 bested them both but it was very noticeably slower (3-4 secs/lap). The 1M is really close in fun, the M3 maybe a half-step behind.

For daily driving the 1M is a lot more fun than the M3 because its power curve is so much more useable.
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      10-05-2012, 10:43 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico View Post
One more thing regarding the topic of this thread.

I think BMW M can build a great turbo M3. Just keep the weight at most below that of the E90/92 and improve the throttle response over the 1M and you have a winner.
Amen to that as well.
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      10-05-2012, 10:55 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by mhabs View Post
Would be interesting to do the torque multiplication math through the gears/diff/wheels to really see which car is producing more torque to the wheels.
Better yet how about actual drive force in N vs. speed? Drive force is even more fundamental than wheel torque and can be better compared apples to apples. That being said acceleration is loosely force/mass and these curves do not include the 1Ms mass advantage.

For the 1M have assumed a torque curve shaped like the one supplied by BMW but with a peak value so that 360 hp is the peak hp. The factory supplied curve is used for the M3. Both cars use a 12% drive train loss.

Prior conclusions I've supplied are consistent with this. The cars are close. M3 on left 1M on right.
  • 1st gear - About even. Slight advantage for the 1M in lower speeds (only if you can avoid wheelspin, which typically does not happen WOT...). At higher speeds the 1M dips down to about 13kN, however the M3 never goes below 15kN.
  • 2nd gear - advantage to M3 (especially since we are concerned with the part to the right of the intersection with 1st gear curve in blue)
  • All other gears clear advantage M3 (assuming WOT and shifts at redline of course)

You can see the effect of the high redline and very wide torque curve in the M3. The M3 curves just keep going and stay flat while the 1M curves all badly taper off. These curves do loosely mirror the torque curves in shape. You can really feel this too when driving - the M3 just goes linear like a turbine engine, whereas the harder you push the 1M the more it falls.

Note: Real world curves will obviously be smooth. This is an artifact of rpm "bins" rather than smooth power and torque curves.

Funny how good power to weight predicts things compared to crank torque.
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      10-05-2012, 11:33 PM   #182
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Hey swamp2, I don't dispute the correctness of your mathematical argument, but in real-world driving conditions where you cannot zing the car to 8K RPM every light, the 1M feels a lot faster in an easier and fun way.

At the track where you do zing it the M3 is fantastic. But I only go once a month. Every other day the 1M is the funner to drive car.
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      10-06-2012, 12:33 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Better yet how about actual drive force in N vs. speed? Drive force is even more fundamental than wheel torque and can be better compared apples to apples. That being said acceleration is loosely force/mass and these curves do not include the 1Ms mass advantage.

For the 1M have assumed a torque curve shaped like the one supplied by BMW but with a peak value so that 360 hp is the peak hp. The factory supplied curve is used for the M3. Both cars use a 12% drive train loss.

Prior conclusions I've supplied are consistent with this. The cars are close. M3 on left 1M on right.
  • 1st gear - About even. Slight advantage for the 1M in lower speeds (only if you can avoid wheelspin, which typically does not happen WOT...). At higher speeds the 1M dips down to about 13kN, however the M3 never goes below 15kN.
  • 2nd gear - advantage to M3 (especially since we are concerned with the part to the right of the intersection with 1st gear curve in blue)
  • All other gears clear advantage M3 (assuming WOT and shifts at redline of course)

You can see the effect of the high redline and very wide torque curve in the M3. The M3 curves just keep going and stay flat while the 1M curves all badly taper off. These curves do loosely mirror the torque curves in shape. You can really feel this too when driving - the M3 just goes linear like a turbine engine, whereas the harder you push the 1M the more it falls.

Note: Real world curves will obviously be smooth. This is an artifact of rpm "bins" rather than smooth power and torque curves.

Funny how good power to weight predicts things compared to crank torque.
If you fancy some additional science and logic on top of what you have already provided for us please check this older thread as well:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=668630

You may find posts 35 and 52 more interesting and challenging than most others. There are some useless posts there like always, but mostly a fun and interesting read so if you don't feel too lazy I advise checking all thread.
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      10-06-2012, 02:53 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico View Post
Hey swamp2, I don't dispute the correctness of your mathematical argument, but in real-world driving conditions where you cannot zing the car to 8K RPM every light, the 1M feels a lot faster in an easier and fun way.

At the track where you do zing it the M3 is fantastic. But I only go once a month. Every other day the 1M is the funner to drive car.
My argument is both an engineering/physics argument and a quote from a truly head to head controlled test by Motortrend magazine. Both agree.

I also agree and stated right here that for a lazy driver, not willing to redline the car and/or one using the wrong gear to achieve maximum acceleration, the 1M is likely to be faster (i.e. in many particular contests under those conditions)

I also personally disagree that the 1M is a more fun daily driver. Again don't be bashful, use the rpms that BMW M have provided. It turns Jekyll into Hyde!
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      10-06-2012, 03:52 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
If you fancy some additional science and logic on top of what you have already provided for us please check this older thread as well:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=668630

You may find posts 35 and 52 more interesting and challenging than most others. There are some useless posts there like always, but mostly a fun and interesting read so if you don't feel too lazy I advise checking all thread.
That appears to be a race and some simulation for a modded 1M vs. the M3 (coincidentally in the wrong starting gear...). I fail to see the relevance...

Pete vB also claims to be using "actual dynos" for his charts. Again mostly bunk. If different dyno result give you spreads of 20-30 hp which is the right answer? Really which is right? The right answer is that dynos are simply NOT GOOD for absolute results. Under very carefully controlled circumstances they may be good for A-B comparisons. I know here's another idea, pick the best dyno run for the 1M and the worst for the M3 and viola you can bench race the 1M right into victory...

A figure of 360 rwhp for the M3 is quoted in one of these posts. RRI.se finds it at 376 hp. Please have a look at this tester and testing. It is the benchmark for truly OEM level of absolute testing accuracy. The real world performance of the 1M is consistent with about 350-360 crank hp (under rated indeed) which is probably about 305-315 rwhp. Again a 60 hp difference. The 1M makes up for part of that with its lower weight but it can not make up for all of it.

Again, real world testing as well as simulation and spreadsheets agree. It is a drivers race at low speeds but the M3 is decidedly faster at higher speeds. The reason the cars are close is because their peak power to weight ratios are close.

Time to end this "brief" segue and get back on the main topic???

P.S. Just to be clear, most if not all of my discussion here about the 1M vs. M3 is assuming M3 with M-DCT which indeed is a big advantage. Putting a MT M3 vs. the 1M makes things even more of a drivers race into higher speeds.
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      10-06-2012, 04:05 AM   #186
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http://youtu.be/Ij_y8QmUerI

Looks to be the new f80, pretty even with the tuned 1m
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      10-06-2012, 04:23 AM   #187
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Everything sounds great and all. However, I hope they do all the R&D thoroughly and delay the launch date if needed. \

Rod bearing recall for E46 M3 from 2001-2003.5 and subframe issue, lame, (am a victim for the subframe issue, hitting 9 years in 2013 March, currently with 135,000km).

Then, recall on M5 and M6,

Love M cars, but not very impressed with the QC.
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      10-06-2012, 07:37 AM   #188
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more horsepower

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Originally Posted by InterJon View Post
Sounding impressive. Now, if only they could do something about "M4".
i would hope in addition to the added torque HP would approach the 480 range and with the weight reduction we can get to numbers in the 3.5 second circle. i hope is is Radical looking with wide flared out fenders low profile huge tires and cool front hood with a nasty power dome. cant wait to see
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      10-06-2012, 07:38 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by ///M3Lover View Post
Everything sounds great and all. However, I hope they do all the R&D thoroughly and delay the launch date if needed. \

Rod bearing recall for E46 M3 from 2001-2003.5 and subframe issue, lame, (am a victim for the subframe issue, hitting 9 years in 2013 March, currently with 135,000km).

Then, recall on M5 and M6,

Love M cars, but not very impressed with the QC.
the only good thing is that all these issues with the m5/6 will be resolved in the new m3/4
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      10-06-2012, 09:05 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by InterJon
Sounding impressive. Now, if only they could do something about "M4".
I detest this name "M4". Trying to be like Audi is not cool.

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      10-06-2012, 09:15 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Polar moment and weight distribution are different measures but are closely related. Low polar moment is achieved easily in a mid engine. Mid engine also contributes to equal weight front and rear. A large polar moment comes from a large amount (%) of weight (again an engine is a key contributor) far away from the center of mass. Polar moment however also depends on the total weight itself. A scale model version that is exact will have a correspondingly scaled polar moment, however, its weight distribution will remain unchanged.
Read my post again, I am referring to axle weight distribution, in response to the post I was replying to. Not overall weight distribution.

Using the centre of gravity as the referential, polar moment and axle weight distribution are not related. Polar moment depends on how weight is distributed around the centre of gravity (how much and how far). Axle weight distribution depends on the position of the centre of gravity relative to the axles.

Now under dynamic conditions, it gets more complicated, as a car does not necessarily rotate around the centre of gravity.

I don't want to get too technical here, but for those interested, there is a very good book published by the Society of Automotive Engineers called Fundamentals of Vehicle Dynamics by T. D. Gillespie that explain these principles very well (with plenty of equations ).

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      10-06-2012, 09:59 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
That appears to be a race and some simulation for a modded 1M vs. the M3 (coincidentally in the wrong starting gear...). I fail to see the relevance...

Pete vB also claims to be using "actual dynos" for his charts. Again mostly bunk. If different dyno result give you spreads of 20-30 hp which is the right answer? Really which is right? The right answer is that dynos are simply NOT GOOD for absolute results. Under very carefully controlled circumstances they may be good for A-B comparisons. I know here's another idea, pick the best dyno run for the 1M and the worst for the M3 and viola you can bench race the 1M right into victory...

A figure of 360 rwhp for the M3 is quoted in one of these posts. RRI.se finds it at 376 hp. Please have a look at this tester and testing. It is the benchmark for truly OEM level of absolute testing accuracy. The real world performance of the 1M is consistent with about 350-360 crank hp (under rated indeed) which is probably about 305-315 rwhp. Again a 60 hp difference. The 1M makes up for part of that with its lower weight but it can not make up for all of it.

Again, real world testing as well as simulation and spreadsheets agree. It is a drivers race at low speeds but the M3 is decidedly faster at higher speeds. The reason the cars are close is because their peak power to weight ratios are close.

Time to end this "brief" segue and get back on the main topic???

P.S. Just to be clear, most if not all of my discussion here about the 1M vs. M3 is assuming M3 with M-DCT which indeed is a big advantage. Putting a MT M3 vs. the 1M makes things even more of a drivers race into higher speeds.
Fair enough
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      10-06-2012, 10:37 AM   #193
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I think if they can reduce weight by 300 lbs that is great news. The power only effects one part of the equation. However, weight effects multiple areas. Less weight translates into better handling, braking, and acceleration.

Also, I am pretty sure after market tuners will be able to find ways to tune that inline 6 turbo to well over 420 hp/400 lb-ft mark.

My main concern is the electric steering crap......I hope and pray that they are able to give new M3 a great steering feel with plenty of pure feedback so it does not feel artificial.
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      10-06-2012, 11:41 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M Power Mexico View Post
I got both an E90 M3 and a 1M (both 6MT). And until very recently I also had an E46 M3.

E90 M3 vs 1M is very close.

I personally can pull about the same times on our local track maybe a second faster on the 1M. At this altitude (2,240Mts above sea level) the 1M will leave the M3 easily behind in any acceleration situation. But, the M3 is easier to drive at the limit (this is a fast track, not a short one) because the throttle response is two steps above the 1M and the chassis is more neutral and less prone to snap oversteer. The 1M is much twitchier, a lot of fun, but it takes an expert and/or ballsy driver to really take it to the limit on corners. The M3 is a lot easier. I have some driving skills, like a good amateur but not a pro (been to multiple schools).

Any difference in performance is academic between these two, any driver difference will be greater.

Most fun? The E46 bested them both but it was very noticeably slower (3-4 secs/lap). The 1M is really close in fun, the M3 maybe a half-step behind.

For daily driving the 1M is a lot more fun than the M3 because its power curve is so much more useable.
I see you are at 2,200m altitude.

The M3 engine will drop aprox 20% power due to that altitude.....(Man that sucks a 325ish hp M3)

....whereas the 1M will only drop a smaller % (maybe 5%) due to it being Turbo charged.

Top speeds are usually unaffected as the thinner air is easier to push through, but the 1M will gain significant performance at all speeds as it hasn't lost much power.
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      10-06-2012, 12:04 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I think if they can reduce weight by 300 lbs that is great news. The power only effects one part of the equation. However, weight effects multiple areas. Less weight translates into better handling, braking, and acceleration.

Also, I am pretty sure after market tuners will be able to find ways to tune that inline 6 turbo to well over 420 hp/400 lb-ft mark.

My main concern is the electric steering crap......I hope and pray that they are able to give new M3 a great steering feel with plenty of pure feedback so it does not feel artificial.
Agreed
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      10-06-2012, 01:25 PM   #196
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The last V8 M3 will be an icon just like the last V10 M5.
Agreed.
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      10-06-2012, 02:16 PM   #197
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You mean what the 335i brought on the sports car scene with the N54. I think people who are into Evos, STI's,135's dont understand what the fuss is all about. Hahaha
People who like the intake growl of a NA with individual throttle bodies,high revving V8,instant and quick throttle response dont want your 135i reworked engine.
I bet you the majority of the new engine proponent never owned a high revvin NA V8,they think their 135i engine is the nec plus ultra.
I'm with you here, I absolutely love my 135i but we used to have an E90 M3 and I really, really, really miss that engine. My car used to be tuned but every time I hear someone try to claim that you can make a regular 3 series better than an M3 with aftermarket parts I want to die. You cannot match the handling and refinement and you absolutely cannot make the N54 or N55 as awesome as the S65, even if you can make more power.
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      10-06-2012, 03:08 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
I think if they can reduce weight by 300 lbs that is great news. The power only effects one part of the equation. However, weight effects multiple areas. Less weight translates into better handling, braking, and acceleration.

Also, I am pretty sure after market tuners will be able to find ways to tune that inline 6 turbo to well over 420 hp/400 lb-ft mark.

My main concern is the electric steering crap......I hope and pray that they are able to give new M3 a great steering feel with plenty of pure feedback so it does not feel artificial.
I agree re weight, but the VAST percentage of M3 owners will not tune their cars. I'm certainly not dropping 80k and having some aftermarket tuner fiddle with car and invalidate the warranty.

The 991 electric steering is very feelsome, I have little doubt M-division will do a decent job with the feedback.
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