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      06-20-2013, 03:33 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
If they are making turbo v8s and BMW are making turbo 6s....

looks like benz and audi are getting my money next !
It is not yet decided apparently. But for fuel efficiency they are more likely to get the V6 from the new Panamera S.
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      06-20-2013, 03:40 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
It is not yet decided apparently. But for fuel efficiency they are more likely to get the V6 from the new Panamera S.
i can see audi switching, because they have in the past. but AMG is known for the v8s. I can see them making a the turbo v8 more so than anyone else.
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      06-20-2013, 06:33 AM   #333
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i can see audi switching, because they have in the past. but AMG is known for the v8s. I can see them making a the turbo v8 more so than anyone else.
Audi's plans are still not known for sure, but Mercedes' are. Google "M177 V8".

Though the fact is that both have used FI V6 engines in this class in the past - not just Audi; I agree with you that Audi seems more eager to downsize the number of cylinders in their products.
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      06-20-2013, 07:33 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Audi's plans are still not known for sure, but Mercedes' are. Google "M177 V8".

Though the fact is that both have used FI V6 engines in this class in the past - not just Audi; I agree with you that Audi seems more eager to downsize the number of cylinders in their products.
Because the smaller RS3 has an complete different platform, for which it is impossible to use an V6TT engine, I don´t think that Audi RS would develop an engine for the RS4/5 only ... I think they would go the AMG way with only one engine for all RS cars from midsized sedan/coupe-class up ... the 4.0ltr.V8TT from the RS6 !!!

Also in the past Audi RS was more involved in hp-wars with AMG than the M-GmbH ... so I don´t think they wouldn´t give the RS4/5 an snaller engine than AMG would put into its C55(?)/63.
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      06-20-2013, 08:24 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Because the smaller RS3 has an complete different platform, for which it is impossible to use an V6TT engine, I don´t think that Audi RS would develop an engine for the RS4/5 only ... I think they would go the AMG way with only one engine for all RS cars from midsized sedan/coupe-class up ... the 4.0ltr.V8TT from the RS6 !!!

Also in the past Audi RS was more involved in hp-wars with AMG than the M-GmbH ... so I don´t think they wouldn´t give the RS4/5 an snaller engine than AMG would put into its C55(?)/63.
It is not a new V6 for the RS4/RS5 only. This V6 powers the fecelifted Panamera S, will power the facelifted Cayenne S and will power the Macan S so as the Pajun S. This engine will find its way to the new high-class VWs and quite surely the RS4, RS5 and entry level R8.

S3/TT-S/R4:.................2.0l I4 ~300 PS
RS3/TT-RS/R4:.............2.4l I5 ~350-400 PS
S4/S5:.........................3.0l V6 ~350-400 PS
RS4/RS5:.....................3.0l V6 ~450-500 PS
S6/S7:.........................4.0l V8 ~450-500 PS
RS6/RS7:.....................4.0l V8 ~550-600 PS
R8:.............................3.0l V6 ~450 PS & 4.0l V8 ~600 PS
Gallardo II:..................4.0l V8 ~600-650 PS

4.0l V8 also for Bentley. W12 is exclusive.


Mercedes engine in future look other wise:
1.5l I3 (Mercedes)
2.0l I4 (Mercedes & AMG)
3.0l I6 (Mercedes)
4.0l V8 (Mercedes & AMG up to 700 PS)
6.0l V12 (Exclsuive Mercedes & AMG also for Pagani)

A sure bet is that all M engine will be based on AG engines. Yet it, depends on what will power M2 (I4 or I6) and M4 (I6 or V6) and which. However this is certain:
1.5l I3
1.6l I4 (BMW-PSA) (not sure for how long and if it will be completely replaced by I3)
2.0l I4
3.0l I6
4.0l V8 (will replace current 4.4l V8, could come with next generation X6 or new X7).
6.0l V12 (BMW exclusive, M version not impossible)
6.6l V12 (Rolls Royce Exclusive)
V16 (Rolls Royce Exclusive, yet to be confirmed in next Phantom).

In the next 2 years new turbocharged I4, V6 and V8 engines should be powering Lexus cars. Next generation IS-F/RC-F engine is yet unknown, either FI V6 or NA V8.

Last edited by Levi; 06-20-2013 at 08:40 AM.
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      06-20-2013, 09:26 AM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
I don´t think that Audi RS would develop an engine for the RS4/5 only
The engine is already developed and sitting under the hood of the 2014 Panamera, as Levi said. It is a 90 degree V6 just like the current supercharged engine which it will eventually replace in all of its current states of tune.
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      06-20-2013, 09:47 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
A sure bet is that all M engine will be based on AG engines.
Always been based, but still totally difference and next F80 M3 is no exception, because of red line, you just blow your engine if you try rev basic N55 7500-8000rpm. I think also that M-division never make engine which dead on high revs, what also has been speculate.
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      06-22-2013, 01:54 PM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
before everyone gets excited
something tells me this will be an adaptation of the N54/55
sort of like the engine in the 1m (heaven forbid)
It's called the S55 and will be based on the N55. So yes it will be an adaptation of a series engine just like every M engine in the past besides the S65/85. For example the E46's S54 which was based on the M54 etc.

The E9X M3 really made people forget about M's true heritage.
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      06-22-2013, 05:39 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
It's called the S55 and will be based on the N55. So yes it will be an adaptation of a series engine just like every M engine in the past besides the S65/85. For example the E46's S54 which was based on the M54 etc.

The E9X M3 really made people forget about M's true heritage.
Well yes all M engines had their roots in standard BMW engines
But at least they put in a little effort in making them different
I think the difference between the n55 and the s55 will be much smaller
Both will be turbo
No individual throttle bodies ( which other than the parts bin 1m) was the norm
Now with the m5 and m3
It's basically a stock engine plus a different tune

The problem I see is why am I paying so much more for the m3/4 now?
It's not for bespoke parts anymore
The m3/4 will become a 335 plus a tune
Which I can add to the 335 for less than a $1000
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      06-23-2013, 02:14 AM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Well yes all M engines had their roots in standard BMW engines
But at least they put in a little effort in making them different
I think the difference between the n55 and the s55 will be much smaller
Both will be turbo
No individual throttle bodies ( which other than the parts bin 1m) was the norm
Now with the m5 and m3
It's basically a stock engine plus a different tune

The problem I see is why am I paying so much more for the m3/4 now?
It's not for bespoke parts anymore
The m3/4 will become a 335 plus a tune
Which I can add to the 335 for less than a $1000
Yet we dont even know, that can Bmw engineer valvetronic system to handle near 8000rpm. As well, they must know that big market ares prefers V8 and this is huge downgrade. So engine cannot be like tuned N55, or you cannot take same power/feel on N55 and it need to be more instant response engine. Near 8000rpm red line gives very much opportunities, everyone knows that more revs and engine breath better naturally, so no need to add so much boost which means less lag and more NA engine feel.

So how much they share parts? I think not much, inter alia? Crank, cylinder head, rods, cams and block is difference on S54 compare to M54, so I think there must be same like difference compared N55 and S55, higher red line need stronger bearings to eliminate increasing forces. Cylinder head need flow better and cams need to be difference if engine delivers power on higher revs.
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      06-23-2013, 04:08 AM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
Now with the m5 and m3
It's basically a stock engine plus a different tune
As I keep saying, this isn't true for the M5 engine and won't be true for the M3 engine either.


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      06-23-2013, 07:01 AM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
As I keep saying, this isn't true for the M5 engine and won't be true for the M3 engine either.


Best regards,
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There is more difference between M54 and S54 than between N63 and S63.
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      06-23-2013, 07:10 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
But at least they put in a little effort in making them different
Really?

And here I was under the impression thst the R&D money was spent on making the M engines produce more power and perform better while still being as durable and reliable than what they started with, if not more so.

For the S63, they switched from single scroll turbos to dual scrolls and developed a completely new induction system to decrease turbo lag. So this is not just an ECU tune at all. They also added Vavletronic throttle control to that engine before it made its way to the N63. And they did that even though redline was increased to 7200RPM, higher than previously possible.

For the S55 we already know they are increasing the number of turbos and raising the redline by even more vs the series engine. It's not going to be just an N55 with a tune - not even close. There is also strong likelihood of some innovative induction setup that addresses turbo lag - probably even more effectively than what was done with the S63.

If Valvetronic means better throttle response than ITBs, then that's what they'll use and indeed it would be foolish not to. If power goals can be met by keeping displacement unchanged (which stands to reason when forced induction is being used) then not increasing the bore size and having to switch to a heavy iron block is clearly the right choice.

If you are just looking for an engine that ticks the boxes on an arbitrary list of possible changes from some other engine, I'd say you've missed the point and misunderstood the engineering motivations behind previous M division efforts altogether.
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      06-23-2013, 07:21 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Really?

And here I was under the impression thst the R&D money was spent on making the M engines produce more power and perform better while still being as durable and reliable than what they started with, if not more so.
If that was their plan, they would have just put a big ass turbo on their engines, like everyone else is doing.
It wasn't just about power, as they were normally behind audi and mb on the power front
It was about making great engines, with instant throttle response
Which I truly think ended at the S65

Anyway, my next car won't be an m3/4
After 4 M3s, I no longer see the point of buying them
What made them special is no longer true
So I don't see the need to pay such a premium
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      06-23-2013, 07:37 AM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
If that was their plan, they would have just put a big ass turbo on their engines, like everyone else is doing.
Well that wouldn't be very reliable would it? So no, that solution would not work, hence why they take a unique approach to turbocharged engine design. And that of course takes R&D, but perhaps the results are not as visible on the engine's vital sheet, and perhaps some folks get touchy about such things.

Quote:
It was about making great engines, with instant throttle response
Which I truly think ended at the S65
Sounds to me like you won't be happy with any turbocharged engine at all, at least not in a factory performance car. If so then it looks like you're out of that market for the foreseeable future.

Quote:
Anyway, my next car won't be an m3/4
After 4 M3s, I no longer see the point of buying them
What made them special is no longer true
So I don't see the need to pay such a premium
Well then I'm sure a tuned 335i will suit you fine. Just don't make the mistake of reading more about the next M when details are revealed, and reading reviews when people start bringing them home. And under no circumstances should you test drive one. Not that you'd even be tempted anyway. You're opinions are formed already, and that's close enough to fact to make an informed purchase decision today.
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      06-23-2013, 07:49 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
If so then it looks like you're out of that market for the foreseeable future.
It is not yet the end of NA engine, at least not at Porsche, and if you can afford an M3/M5, you can afford a Porsche. Hybrid technology is going to permit to have NA engine. Examples: LaFerrari, 918 Spyder, NSX II,...
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      06-23-2013, 12:53 PM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Well that wouldn't be very reliable would it? So no, that solution would not work, hence why they take a unique approach to turbocharged engine design. And that of course takes R&D, but perhaps the results are not as visible on the engine's vital sheet, and perhaps some folks get touchy about such things.



Sounds to me like you won't be happy with any turbocharged engine at all, at least not in a factory performance car. If so then it looks like you're out of that market for the foreseeable future.



Well then I'm sure a tuned 335i will suit you fine. Just don't make the mistake of reading more about the next M when details are revealed, and reading reviews when people start bringing them home. And under no circumstances should you test drive one. Not that you'd even be tempted anyway. You're opinions are formed already, and that's close enough to fact to make an informed purchase decision today.
My next car won't be a BMW, as much as I loved my E92/E30 M3s
I think we've grown too much apart now
I am getting a car that has similar performance to the M3, maybe a little faster acceleration.
Significantly lighter (47% lighter to be exact)
Better fuel economy
No power steering vs electric ps in new m3
And probably I'd guess about $20K less
And more exclusive as well
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      06-23-2013, 12:54 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
It is not yet the end of NA engine, at least not at Porsche, and if you can afford an M3/M5, you can afford a Porsche. Hybrid technology is going to permit to have NA engine. Examples: LaFerrari, 918 Spyder, NSX II,...
I will be driving the same brand as you
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      06-24-2013, 06:12 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
It is not yet the end of NA engine, at least not at Porsche, and if you can afford an M3/M5, you can afford a Porsche. Hybrid technology is going to permit to have NA engine. Examples: LaFerrari, 918 Spyder, NSX II,...
Sure, but I am talking about cars both in the M3/M4 price range and that offer similar range of utility. I suppose there is the next IS-F, and non-luxury cars like a Mustang or Camaro. Not much else comes to mind.
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      06-24-2013, 06:29 AM   #350
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I'm sure you'll enjoy the Cayman. Great car if you don't need a daily driver with passenger capability or if you are content to admire your fun car while it sits in the garage all week. In fact it always amazes me how many people move to sports cars only after realizing that an M3 or car X, Y or Z is not one. The backseat is there for a reason: to transport people . If you don't need it, by all means don't pay the weight penalty.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
My next car won't be a BMW, as much as I loved my E92/E30 M3s
I think we've grown too much apart now
I am getting a car that has similar performance to the M3, maybe a little faster acceleration.
Significantly lighter (47% lighter to be exact)
Better fuel economy
No power steering vs electric ps in new m3
And probably I'd guess about $20K less
And more exclusive as well
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      06-24-2013, 11:14 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I'm sure you'll enjoy the Cayman. Great car if you don't need a daily driver with passenger capability or if you are content admire you fun car while it sits in the garage all week. In fact it always amazes me how many people move to sports cars only after realizing that an M3 or car X, Y or Z is not one. The backseat is there for a reason: to transport people . If you don't need it, by all means don't pay the weight penalty.


Why? M3 is know for being the most sporty practical car. In fact from most people RS5/C AMG is more of a sportscar than a Toyota GT86. Why? Because of power and fast acceleration. M3 has yet handling like Toyota GT86.
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      06-24-2013, 11:52 AM   #352
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"I'm sure you'll enjoy the Cayman."
To me it looks like he is eyeing the Alfa 4C. That is one spectacular looking car from design to specifications. If I could fit my kids I would be on the pre-booking list. I would prefer a car like this with an MT though. Strange choice to go purist with no PS and then fit an autobox only.
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