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      01-31-2013, 02:11 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone
I have heard that the power level will be more around ~ 430 PS, although ///M is trying hard to reach a PS target or 450 PS. I also heard the engine will be based on a N55, called S55 but it will have two turbos and a water to air intercooler (as seen in previous postings here).
As seen in the pics above. But is there room for bigger turbos?! I guess cams and e85 should do.
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      01-31-2013, 02:56 AM   #112
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Intresting to see how much engine weigths, engine bay looks very fully loaded. Second thing is that are engine parts same than N55? or only turbos and IC watercooling etc. differend, only little tuned.
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      01-31-2013, 03:33 AM   #113
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Any vin hunting on the 2 series.
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      01-31-2013, 03:45 AM   #114
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What ever BMW does, history shows they will not let it step on the M5 toes.
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      01-31-2013, 03:51 AM   #115
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the M is gonna be a beast, they've always been, and I don't really think that's gonna change.

audis latest and greatest rs5 still can't dethrone the current m3, which is now 6 years old, amg's c class is a big ass heavy car that's goes to shit when the curves come that marginally improves year by year, if I'm not mistaken don't they still use a slush box?

not to mention bmw is one of the few that still respects the art of manual trans driving

with shitty torque number the m3 still rocks everything thrown its way, imagine what will happen when you give it real torque

the next M3/4 is gonna be ridiculous, definitely gonna be my next car
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      01-31-2013, 07:20 AM   #116
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I've read through the entire thread.
Everybody's talking HP, and how BMW should set the benchmark.

Hate to break it to you people, but these are different times we live in.
My guess is that BMW, being a mass car producer (before anyone starts comparing with Ferrari and the likes), is aiming for benchmarks not in HP numbers, but in HP per liter, and in emissions per liter.

If they get the emissions per liter right, and deliver a platform that has less weight and the same HP figures as the previous model, they have a winner !

Again, US folks might not care, but most other people do, as many of us are HEAVILY taxed on both engine displacement and CO2 emissions, as this seems to be the way that many governments around the world are milking the cow (car) to the max, because they all need extra money, and semi-rich people are an excellent target.

Also, the M3 must be a halo car that shines down on the rest of the BMW car line-up. Efficiency does matter a lot nowadays.

My 2 cents...
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      01-31-2013, 07:43 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATS View Post
I'm more worried about the numb feeling, fake engine noise, and muted exhaust note that affects all the new generation M cars.

Not to mention the price...
+1 10k more on a base price M4 and no power bump...mmmm
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      01-31-2013, 07:51 AM   #118
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Currently M3 HP, more torque, less weight? BMW Turbo power delivery? Dream come true!!! Can't wait for this car!!!! Hope I can afford it!
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      01-31-2013, 08:29 AM   #119
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HP is 415. I was expect more. The engine compartment is pretty busy. Hey, it's progress. Nice find.
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      01-31-2013, 08:54 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaehshim View Post
Well, that really doesn't make sense. You have to look at where it's all coming from.

E46 to E9X (333-414) was a drastic change, because it went from 6-8cylinder, as well as .8L increase in displacement. Redline went up as well

E9X to F80 (414-415) is a downgrade from 8-6 cylinder, but with forced induction. This is NOT "massive increase in torque with no incrase in power". It's a completely new engine, new forced induction on a inline-6. From a basline non-turbo inline 6 perspective, it is massiv increase in torque AND power.

There will be about 6.8 million threads about E9X's NA vs F80 Turbo once F80 comes out, but these two engines' characteristics will be completely different. High Rev NA vs Twin turbo toque. We all know it's coming...
Well, I'm going to start the first thread of 6.8 million because I'm mad as hell. (well maybe not)

I guess we are all chopping at the bit trying to figure out what is going to happen to our favorite M3 car in th future.
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      01-31-2013, 09:01 AM   #121
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Honest question...how is this different from a tuned N54 engine? And please note, I'm currently in an M3 and will probably get this one in a few years once the kinks are worked out. I'm just asking this because I came from a tuned 335i back in 2007 and loved the torque....but think this will feel pretty much the same. The weight advantage will be awesome though.
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      01-31-2013, 09:05 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
I've read through the entire thread.
Everybody's talking HP, and how BMW should set the benchmark.

Hate to break it to you people, but these are different times we live in.
My guess is that BMW, being a mass car producer (before anyone starts comparing with Ferrari and the likes), is aiming for benchmarks not in HP numbers, but in HP per liter, and in emissions per liter.

If they get the emissions per liter right, and deliver a platform that has less weight and the same HP figures as the previous model, they have a winner !

Again, US folks might not care, but most other people do, as many of us are HEAVILY taxed on both engine displacement and CO2 emissions, as this seems to be the way that many governments around the world are milking the cow (car) to the max, because they all need extra money, and semi-rich people are an excellent target.

Also, the M3 must be a halo car that shines down on the rest of the BMW car line-up. Efficiency does matter a lot nowadays.

My 2 cents...
Finally someone who makes absolute sense of where BMW is going. Agreed.
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      01-31-2013, 09:06 AM   #123
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Add e85 and a tune and will hit 500 horses so don't worry
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      01-31-2013, 09:16 AM   #124
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I think BMW will make the same mistake what they did with M5. Look, when M5 f10 came out, then everybody was like wow, this thing is a beast. But now, when new RS6 and FACELIFT!!! E 63 amg are introduced, M5 is out of competition. MB made they car with facelift almost 1 sec faster 0-100km/h. New M3/M4 can be in the top of the game, but when new RS5 and C 63 AMG will come out then its over.
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      01-31-2013, 09:17 AM   #125
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nice!! the new info that is slowly coming out is making it very exciting!
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      01-31-2013, 09:50 AM   #126
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2009 335i  [4.39]
Well if that's really the power output of the S55, then I'm really happy because then there's even less reason to change from my current ride.

And considering they'll have to use most of the F30/F32 chassis (even if the code is now F80/F82), I don't expect more than 100lbs weight gains, if that, over the 335i. Considerably less weight can only be had if they go for a totally different construction, i.e. alu space frame (like Audi) or carbon fiber chassis like some supercars (McLaren, Lamborghini). Anything else - such as the E90 M3 CRT - will gain so little that it won't be noticeable. In particular if 90% of the owners will full-spec their cars, which is rather likely.

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      01-31-2013, 10:05 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
If they get the emissions per liter right, and deliver a platform that has less weight and the same HP figures as the previous model, they have a winner!
I mostly disagree, if for no other reason than on the basis that this makes for a tough sell in a very competitive market.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree that efficiency and emissions are very important. But consider that the trend in the industry as far as engines are concerned has not changed in that horsepower numbers are still being edged upward. This holds true for BMW as well. For example, their most recently introduced engine, the N63Tu, has about 50hp more than its predecessor (the N63). It puts the 6 Series and 7 Series at the top of their classes as far as power is concerned (ahead of the S7/CLS550 and A8 4.0/S550). It will soon do the same for the 5 Series, X5 and X6. And the engine is not necessarily more efficient than its forebear, though it is not less so either.

In the case of the "S55", we do know that BMW will increase efficiency vs. the S65. But that still does not mean it won't offer greater performance. In fact, we can logically expect a situation similar to the M5/M6 transition from S85 to S63Tu. I.e. roughly 20% more efficient with about 10% more power.
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      01-31-2013, 10:19 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeneral101 View Post
Honest question...how is this different from a tuned N54 engine?
In my estimation, primarily the employment of BMW's Valvetronic technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valvetronic

Quote:
And please note, I'm currently in an M3 and will probably get this one in a few years once the kinks are worked out. I'm just asking this because I came from a tuned 335i back in 2007 and loved the torque....but think this will feel pretty much the same. The weight advantage will be awesome though.
The S55 engine will feel similar to an N55 in all the same ways that an S65 feels similar to an N62. In other words, the similarities will be few to none. Remember, torque is great for towing and butt-o-meter sensations, power and weight alone (or nearly alone) drive performance.

Also, not to disappoint, but the F8x will almost surely not be significantly lighter than an E9x 335i.
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      01-31-2013, 10:47 AM   #129
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I suspect the car will be more than a 3.0L. I just don't see it being the same as the 335. Maybe that 415hp claim is more like 415whp. BMW does underrate their cars. But each generation M3 tends to be slightly behind the M5 in the 1/4. F10 M5s have seen 12 flat and high 11s, so I can see this M3/4 being a low 12 second car. It will definitely dominate on the track with more torque and also lighter weight. I see a win at the end of the day. It just sucks that MB always updates their amg cars shortly after Ms come out, so then we are behind the ball again.
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      01-31-2013, 10:57 AM   #130
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The M3 is not a go-fast-horsepower car to begin with, more like a fun-to-drive car, thus the weight does matter.
Remember, power is nothing without control.
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      01-31-2013, 11:20 AM   #131
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BMW always under rates the power historically, we will see how this one plays out.
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      01-31-2013, 11:26 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
I've read through the entire thread.
Everybody's talking HP, and how BMW should set the benchmark.

Hate to break it to you people, but these are different times we live in.
My guess is that BMW, being a mass car producer (before anyone starts comparing with Ferrari and the likes), is aiming for benchmarks not in HP numbers, but in HP per liter, and in emissions per liter.

If they get the emissions per liter right, and deliver a platform that has less weight and the same HP figures as the previous model, they have a winner !

Again, US folks might not care, but most other people do, as many of us are HEAVILY taxed on both engine displacement and CO2 emissions, as this seems to be the way that many governments around the world are milking the cow (car) to the max, because they all need extra money, and semi-rich people are an excellent target.

Also, the M3 must be a halo car that shines down on the rest of the BMW car line-up. Efficiency does matter a lot nowadays.

My 2 cents...
TRUE and well said. More variables for such a large car maker to take into consideration that just HP and TQ numbers now.
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