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      01-31-2013, 11:31 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaehshim View Post
As expected, this is a smart move by BMW.

Of course many will be disappointed with the rumor-expected hp output of next M3 (415 now? to 450 rumored), but it's the WEIGHT that matters more than hp...i'd rather have a lighter, less hp car than a heavy ass, big hp car.
You are correct sir!

I remember the late Colin Chapman of Lotus F1 fame saying, " add HP and you will go faster in a straight line. Remove weight and you will go faster everywhere!
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      01-31-2013, 11:34 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
In my estimation, primarily the employment of BMW's Valvetronic technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valvetronic



The S55 engine will feel similar to an N55 in all the same ways that an S65 feels similar to an N62. In other words, the similarities will be few to none. Remember, torque is great for towing and butt-o-meter sensations, power and weight alone (or nearly alone) drive performance.

Also, not to disappoint, but the F8x will almost surely not be significantly lighter than an E9x 335i.

Thanks for the response. Looking forward to test driving when available.
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      01-31-2013, 11:37 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaehshim
As expected, this is a smart move by BMW.

Of course many will be disappointed with the rumor-expected hp output of next M3 (415 now? to 450 rumored), but it's the WEIGHT that matters more than hp...i'd rather have a lighter, less hp car than a heavy ass, big hp car.
This^
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      01-31-2013, 12:03 PM   #136
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We keep talking weight which is great, don't get me wrong. But aren't inline six's inherently heavier than a V8 due to the crank? That's what made the E92 M's V8 lighter the the outgoing E46. Say this is true, that the 6 is going to be heavier in the nose (worse spot) then where is the weight going to be saved? I thought the cars over all dimensions were slightly bigger and that means more of the plastic reinforced carbon being used, which is sweet but I know a concern of mine would be sacrificing a quality feel in the name of weight. Ever see the Audi commercial where the guy closes the door with that comforting "thud" and the car falls out of the tree? We Beemer owners are gonna be getting that with thinly made body panels
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      01-31-2013, 12:21 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE-FN-MAN
We keep talking weight which is great, don't get me wrong. But aren't inline six's inherently heavier than a V8 due to the crank? That's what made the E92 M's V8 lighter the the outgoing E46. Say this is true, that the 6 is going to be heavier in the nose (worse spot) then where is the weight going to be saved? I thought the cars over all dimensions were slightly bigger and that means more of the plastic reinforced carbon being used, which is sweet but I know a concern of mine would be sacrificing a quality feel in the name of weight. Ever see the Audi commercial where the guy closes the door with that comforting "thud" and the car falls out of the tree? We Beemer owners are gonna be getting that with thinly made body panels
No, the E92 V8 was only lighter because it was made from Aluminum, unlike the E46s cast iron block. If they use a new chassis (which they seem to be doing thanks to the different chassis designations, F8x instead of F3x) then I can see a 300lb weight saving being feasible.

I just wonder why in the hell they stick with the same displacement as the non-M engines. I KNOW they aren't the same engine, and so do car enthusiasts, (after all, lets not forget that EVERY M3 engine was based off of a regular 3 series engine. The E9x was the only one that was truly "bespoke.") but the average person will not think so. How difficult would it be to stroke it to 3.2 just to differentiate it slightly from the 35i motor to the average joe? And give it an extra 10 horsepower, please? Someone at BMW Marketing needs to be fired, lol.
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      01-31-2013, 12:35 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majdnoon View Post
No, the E92 V8 was only lighter because it was made from Aluminum, unlike the E46s cast iron block. If they use a new chassis (which they seem to be doing thanks to the different chassis designations, F8x instead of F3x) then I can see a 300lb weight saving being feasible.

I just wonder why in the hell they stick with the same displacement as the non-M engines. I KNOW they aren't the same engine, and so do car enthusiasts, (after all, lets not forget that EVERY M3 engine was based off of a regular 3 series engine. The E9x was the only one that was truly "bespoke.") but the average person will not think so. How difficult would it be to stroke it to 3.2 just to differentiate it slightly from the 35i motor to the average joe? And give it an extra 10 horsepower, please? Someone at BMW Marketing needs to be fired, lol.
Wasn't the E92 M3 engine based on the M5 V10? I thought it shared DNA with that engine.
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      01-31-2013, 12:39 PM   #139
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Read this entire thread, If BMW doesn't make the new M3/M4 with AT LEAST

460hp
390 tq
weigh less than 3500lbs

I'm gonna look elsewhere. As some have mentioned, other car makers have similiar performance outside of power/torque alone within the $80-90k price range. If it barely outperforms my e92 M3 then in my eyes it's a failure. Sure make it more efficient but don't make that the main focus, that's what the i3, i8, etc are for. Show me maximum performance and power!

and knock the Porsche 911 Carrera S off of it's #1 spot...
http://bit.ly/NL5OWM

3.8L
power 400
torque 325
weight 3329lbs
1/4 in 12 seconds

Last edited by 96OCTNE; 01-31-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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      01-31-2013, 01:01 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96OCTNE View Post
Show me maximum performance and power!
You're looking at the wrong brand
e.g. your own link: http://bit.ly/NL5OWM

Last edited by hwelvaar; 01-31-2013 at 01:07 PM.
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      01-31-2013, 01:11 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96OCTNE View Post
Read this entire thread, If BMW doesn't make the new M3/M4 with AT LEAST

460hp
390 tq
weigh less than 3500lbs

I'm gonna look elsewhere. As some have mentioned, other car makers have similiar performance outside of power/torque alone within the $80-90k price range. If it barely outperforms my e92 M3 then in my eyes it's a failure. Sure make it more efficient but don't make that the main focus, that's what the i3, i8, etc are for. Show me maximum performance and power!
Yeah maybe you should look elsewhere since you do not get what a true M3 should be.
Go get an AMG and never look back.
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      01-31-2013, 01:30 PM   #142
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Unlike M5, which was always the most powerful and fastest sedan, the M3 was never about power alone, but the overall package. Better less weight than more power. But I get some of you, if both are possible, the better.
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      01-31-2013, 01:35 PM   #143
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Cant wait for "Limp mode" stories from future M3 owners.

I see a disaster coming once summer comes and guys start driving the car hard. BMW needs to do warm weather testing first. Fck if it fails in the heat who cares about cold.

The US is the highest consumers of M3's and prob the most are in Cali. Cold is not an issue here.

I am gonna wait and see and hold onto my E90 M3.
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      01-31-2013, 01:45 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majdnoon View Post
I just wonder why in the hell they stick with the same displacement as the non-M engines.

...

How difficult would it be to stroke it to 3.2 just to differentiate it slightly from the 35i motor to the average joe? And give it an extra 10 horsepower, please? Someone at BMW Marketing needs to be fired, lol.
The stroke is already fairly long at almost 90mm. Compare against an S63 or even an LS3 or M156 (all V8s, I realize, but performance engines at any rate). And with a 91mm bore center the BMW I6 can't easily accommodate a much larger bore than the current ~84mm. More displacement can be had but it is not a simple task. The S54 and S52B32 used iron blocks to get to 3.2L via a larger bore. It is not likely that the aluminum block could accommodate that reliably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm View Post
Wasn't the E92 M3 engine based on the M5 V10? I thought it shared DNA with that engine.
Right. But that engine family was an M original. In other words there was no N65 or N85.
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      01-31-2013, 02:54 PM   #145
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looks amazing
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      01-31-2013, 03:31 PM   #146
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So now a lot of people are complaining about hp/torque figures as if this was the main goal for BMW. Flash back 30 years ago and BMW produced an engine coded the M10 which was a 1.5 litre turbo-charged 4-cylinder producing 1,500 hp.

So relax and try to understand that it's not just a matter of hp/torque but a whole lot more. It's the whole package, driving feelings, power delivery, etc... which matter the most. Having the appropriate hp/torque figure is much more hard to engineer than throw an engine which could weigh twice as heavier and 10 times more powerful than what could the chassis absorb.
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      01-31-2013, 03:41 PM   #147
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It's a BMW, so I will be really surprised if it isn't super.

But man, that motor is ugly to look at. Just sayin'.
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      01-31-2013, 04:23 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeneral101 View Post
Honest question...how is this different from a tuned N54 engine?
Better throttle response, better heat management and a higher redline come to mind.


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      01-31-2013, 04:24 PM   #149
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Let's seperate the M/// fans in here.

1: Those who track heavily
2: Those who track lightly and seldom
3: Those who rave for N.A. and high revs because of track experience and coming from N.A. history of ownership
4: Those who rave for N.A because of what they hear about it.
5: Those who hate turbos because they offer easy power and it hurts to admit it.
6: Those who have never tracked a turbo car , but hear about overheating and hpfp failure , and are SHIT SCARED about it , and judge this setup by fear and by lack of actual experience.
7: those who have actually tacked or driven a PROPER performance oriented turbo vehicle.
8:Those who aim at having a powerful street car that is daily driven and couldnt care less about revs and N.A.
9:Those who appreciate the racing pedigree and nature of a proper N.A. machine and feel attached more heavily to it because of this ( I do ) .
10: Those who have seen Advevo Chase that M3 at the ring and hate on the 1M just for kicks.
11:Those who have seen the same video and stupidly hate on the M3 , claiming it is slow because the 1M is keeping up
12: Those who have seen the same video and absolutly love both cars because both are spectacular ! ME!
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      01-31-2013, 04:28 PM   #150
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I'd love to see 300lb weight savings - that would be incredible right there.
I'm trying to envision where they come up with weight savings that substantial.


- M4 will get a CF roof.

- CF Boot/trunk lid will be left to the aftermarket.

- CFRP Bonnet/hood - that's a BIG MAYBE - but again more likely left to the aftermarket.

- CF Front Seats *MIGHT* be an option like those seen in the E90 M3 CRT.

- Haven't we seen a test mule with Carbon/Ceramic/Composite brakes? There is some good weight savings (unsprung to boot) but most certainly an OPTION.

- I know that BMW had implemented a forging/heating/cooling process that allows body panels to be thinner without sacrificing strength. If I remember correctly they were able to shave 20% of the panel weight for those panels. (It's been a while since I watched that BMW tech video)

So maybe with the above options, and a new chassis design focused on further weight reduction they actually could achieve such a weight reduction.

My best guess is they end up in the 3550lb range. With 415Hp/395lbtq and a nice weight reduction this should be a pretty killer car. 415Hp seems a low figure - I bet at release they do something like 440Hp or 450Hp. No matter what I'm still very excited to see what they come up with. The M-engineers absolutely know how critical it is to develop and deliver a killer M4.
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      01-31-2013, 04:51 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 09BlkSapphire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
Last weekend a group of us hit the dyno and someone brought a 1M. With full exhaust and no tune it put down 330s HP and 370 TQ on a low reading dyno, matching all 3 M3s in HP and destroying them in TQ. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same engine in the new M3 which would be disappointing in that we wouldn't see a new engine, but the 1M engine is nothing to cry about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSanto View Post
If its the 1M engine, I will try another brand. This comes from a lot of seat time in a 1M.
Just Sayin...

Don't people read??

It says right there in the article that the M3/M4 engine is called the S55 and produces 415hp. The 1M has the N54 engine and 340hp.
BMW is known for underrating their cars so that the numbers they advertise are very similar to the numbers they produce at the wheels. I've seen stock 1M's and 335is push 350-360 TQ to the wheels.

That being said, it surprises me that the M3's aren't pushing more HP at the wheels.

At the end of the day, have faith in M-division. They know their customers better than you may know yourself and they know how to make good cars. Yeah, that high-revving NA V8 in the E90/92 is a fantastic engine across the board, but don't write off the N54/55(S55?) due to the fact it has less 2 cylinders. The things that can be done with them are nothing short of witchcraft.
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      01-31-2013, 06:10 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96OCTNE View Post
Read this entire thread, If BMW doesn't make the new M3/M4 with AT LEAST

460hp
390 tq
weigh less than 3500lbs

I'm gonna look elsewhere. As some have mentioned, other car makers have similiar performance outside of power/torque alone within the $80-90k price range. If it barely outperforms my e92 M3 then in my eyes it's a failure. Sure make it more efficient but don't make that the main focus, that's what the i3, i8, etc are for. Show me maximum performance and power!

and knock the Porsche 911 Carrera S off of it's #1 spot...
http://bit.ly/NL5OWM

3.8L
power 400
torque 325
weight 3329lbs
1/4 in 12 seconds
What a ridiculous proposition. With 100 more torque, the new M3 should be in the low 12's/high 11's for the quarter mile. What's more important, though, is what they will have done with the suspension, handling and weight. The current F30 328i handles much better than the E46 M3. I can only imagine what the new M3 will be capable of.
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      01-31-2013, 06:51 PM   #153
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      01-31-2013, 08:17 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavystarch View Post
I'd love to see 300lb weight savings - that would be incredible right there.
I'm trying to envision where they come up with weight savings that substantial.


- M4 will get a CF roof.

- CF Boot/trunk lid will be left to the aftermarket.

- CFRP Bonnet/hood - that's a BIG MAYBE - but again more likely left to the aftermarket.

- CF Front Seats *MIGHT* be an option like those seen in the E90 M3 CRT.

- Haven't we seen a test mule with Carbon/Ceramic/Composite brakes? There is some good weight savings (unsprung to boot) but most certainly an OPTION.

- I know that BMW had implemented a forging/heating/cooling process that allows body panels to be thinner without sacrificing strength. If I remember correctly they were able to shave 20% of the panel weight for those panels. (It's been a while since I watched that BMW tech video)

So maybe with the above options, and a new chassis design focused on further weight reduction they actually could achieve such a weight reduction.

My best guess is they end up in the 3550lb range. With 415Hp/395lbtq and a nice weight reduction this should be a pretty killer car. 415Hp seems a low figure - I bet at release they do something like 440Hp or 450Hp. No matter what I'm still very excited to see what they come up with. The M-engineers absolutely know how critical it is to develop and deliver a killer M4.
I have to disagree with you on a few points.
  1. The F80 M3 was already spotted testing with carbon ceramic brakes: http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792406
  2. My guess is that we will see a bigger use of CFRP

Some things that you want to keep in mind:

BMW has at least a 15% sake in SGL Carbon, a company that specializes in Carbon Fiber technologies. BMW and SGL have a joint venture together. BMW and SGL have opened a plant here in the United States for the production of Carbon Fibers. BMW has committed to large scale production of the material. I doubt they would do so without a business case. The Fibers produced in the US will go on to be a part of CFRP components in the Germany plant.

It's highly possible that the M3/M4 may never see any of this extra CFRP due to the production of the i3 and i8 which require large amounts for their passenger cells as well as body panels. Maybe it's EQUALLY as possible that a small amount might be allocated to M3/M4 hood and decklid?
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