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      02-05-2013, 11:47 AM   #199
Robin_NL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
You need a nice 6 cil engine which does al the hard work and let a little turbo help out from low down.
And we NEED some SNOW overhere!

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      02-05-2013, 12:03 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Sam go test drive a 1M Coupe. Then we talk again.
Driving a 1M will always be a challenge, considering how few made it to the USA

I personally had a deposit and order placed for a 1M, right at two years ago. Not doubting the car at all... so unsure of your point?
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      02-05-2013, 12:54 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Sam go test drive a 1M Coupe. Then we talk again.

Levi an i4 Turbo could be nice if they can get the numbers HP and NM of what an 1M coupe has atm. And even less turbo lag please. For agilily this will be better.

But i think it s better to go for a tuned down N55 from the M3. A 4 cil the turbo need do to more work so could be more lag. That s also not what you want.

You need a nice 6 cil engine which does al the hard work and let a little turbo help out from low down.
The point is that an I4 will be lighter than an I6. As you had a 120i as your previous racecar, do you feel the 1M is more nose-heavy?
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      02-05-2013, 02:15 PM   #202
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The point is that an I4 will be lighter than an I6. As you had a 120i as your previous racecar, do you feel the 1M is more nose-heavy?
A 120i? When was that?

We both had 120d s to begin with and he had a 130i and 135i as I recall.

1M doesnīt feel noseheavy at all Who said that in the first place needs to gets his or her head examined.As you know It has its aluminium bespoke front chassis setup and wider track than normal 1 series etc. Maybe you mean tailhappy. LOL.

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      02-05-2013, 02:17 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
A 120i? When was that?

We both had 120d s to begin with and he had a 130i and 135i as I recall.

1M doesnīt feel noseheavy at all Who said that in the first place needs to gets his or her head examined. Maybe you mean tailhappy. LOL.

Cheers
Robin
Oh yes, it was a 130i.

Well, many reviewers prefered the more balanced handling of the 328i F30 over the 335i F30.
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      02-05-2013, 02:22 PM   #204
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Oh yes, it was a 130i.

Well, many reviewers prefered the more balanced handling of the 328i F30 over the 335i F30.
Agreed. But a F30 feels more like a boat than its E9x predecessor if you ask me. Boat as in comfy, lazy relaxed, less sporty.

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      02-06-2013, 09:54 PM   #205
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not enough HP should have increased to 490 hp
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      02-07-2013, 02:25 AM   #206
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All of you torque folks really grate on me (and on other clued up enthusiasts as well).

More torque is fine, nothing wrong with it, however, it does next to nothing for actually making a car faster. Isn't that what most of us actually care about (or profess to care about). Torque is great for mashing the throttle in 7th gear (maybe 8th in the new M3/M4) at 50 mph, but in REAL contests, when choosing the best gear possible to maximize acceleration, hp is the single figure that matters, pretty well totally independent of torque (well again technically power to weight ratio... but POWER not torque).

I don't give a single rats ass about how much more or how much total torque the car will make, neither should any true M enthusiast.
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      02-07-2013, 07:58 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
All of you torque folks really grate on me (and on other clued up enthusiasts as well).

More torque is fine, nothing wrong with it, however, it does next to nothing for actually making a car faster. Isn't that what most of us actually care about (or profess to care about). Torque is great for mashing the throttle in 7th gear (maybe 8th in the new M3/M4) at 50 mph, but in REAL contests, when choosing the best gear possible to maximize acceleration, hp is the single figure that matters, pretty well totally independent of torque (well again technically power to weight ratio... but POWER not torque).

I don't give a single rats ass about how much more or how much total torque the car will make, neither should any true M enthusiast.
+10

All old M3 didnīt have the highest torque numbers but were faster than nearly all competitors ... torque numbers are important for petrol cars and for drivers who donīt like changing the gear.

According to my last informations its simply not so important, which engine with which specs would make it into the M3/M4, to make the F8x the "best M3 ever" and much better than all precessors, simply because they reached an empty weight of the car in the range of < 1.500kg (< 3.300lbs).With this low weight and ~415hp the M3/M4 will be dominant over all today an tomorow competitors ... but I will not except that because of the great reached weight reduction BMW think the cheapest possible engine would be enough !!!
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      02-07-2013, 08:37 AM   #208
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I hear you swamp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Torque is great for mashing the throttle in 7th gear (maybe 8th in the new M3/M4) at 50 mph...
Even in that type of situation and with a boatload of torque, I'll always downshift and get better performance. Why floor the accelerator and poor gasoline into the cylinders only to waste it while the car finds it way to the next available speed where the engine is providing maximum acceleration? Right?

Isn't it ironic that, for all the passion there is surrounding gearbox type, there is just as much protest when it comes time to shift? It is doubly ironic when you consider that modern gearboxes used in high performance applications are built with the express goal of making shifting easier so that you can reap the full potential of the car's engine.

It is also ironic that folks will spend so much time selecting a vehicle that meets their performance needs, only to, in many cases, drive that vehicle in a fashion that will only provide them with the illusion of performance rather than actual performance.

Quote:
I don't give a single rats ass about how much more or how much total torque the car will make, neither should any true M enthusiast.
I agree with your point, if not your exact approach to expressing your feelings. In any case, it is nice when we agree on something.
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      02-07-2013, 12:24 PM   #209
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Agree. Hopefully there is a possibility to order an M3 F80 Individual V8.
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      02-07-2013, 01:45 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Even in that type of situation and with a boatload of torque, I'll always downshift and get better performance. Why floor the accelerator and poor gasoline into the cylinders only to waste it while the car finds it way to the next available speed where the engine is providing maximum acceleration? Right?

Isn't it ironic that, for all the passion there is surrounding gearbox type, there is just as much protest when it comes time to shift? It is doubly ironic when you consider that modern gearboxes used in high performance applications are built with the express goal of making shifting easier so that you can reap the full potential of the car's engine.

It is also ironic that folks will spend so much time selecting a vehicle that meets their performance needs, only to, in many cases, drive that vehicle in a fashion that will only provide them with the illusion of performance rather than actual performance.
+10 also here, very succinctly stated and agree 100%.
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      02-08-2013, 03:43 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Agree. Hopefully there is a possibility to order an M3 F80 Individual V8.
F80 M3 Edition 65 ... build between E92M3 end of produktion and F82M4 beginn of produktion.
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      02-08-2013, 12:42 PM   #212
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Power sells cars, torque wins races. Try a 1M and you'll be surprised how fast it is in any gear almost anytime at any revs, not just in 6th @ 60mph but also @ 3000/4000/5000rpm in 3rd.

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      02-08-2013, 01:39 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Power sells cars, torque wins races. Try a 1M and you'll be surprised how fast it is in any gear almost anytime at any revs, not just in 6th @ 60mph but also @ 3000/4000/5000rpm in 3rd.

Cheers
Robin (former E90 M3)
That is no more the case. Today torque sells cars, and power ("money") wins races.
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      02-08-2013, 06:27 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
That is no more the case. Today torque sells cars, and power ("money") wins races.
That was a good one

Of course I agree with Robin but no need to take it any further...
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      02-08-2013, 06:51 PM   #215
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In case you are interested in some light reading that will lead you to enlightenment this evening:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...um#post2144527

Or whatever time of day it is on your parts of the globe when you get this message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Power sells cars, torque wins races. Try a 1M and you'll be surprised how fast it is in any gear almost anytime at any revs, not just in 6th @ 60mph but also @ 3000/4000/5000rpm in 3rd.

Cheers
Robin (former E90 M3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
That was a good one

Of course I agree with Robin but no need to take it any further...
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      02-09-2013, 02:20 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
In case you are interested in some light reading that will lead you to enlightenment this evening:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...um#post2144527

Or whatever time of day it is on your parts of the globe when you get this message.
Nice theory and I agree with that theory, but PRACTICALLY the Excellent Fantastic Masterpiece M3 V8 with >8000rpm is put in the WRONG (read way TOO heavy, meaning feeling lazy at lower and normal revs ) vehicle called E90/92/93.Why does a 1M with way less POWER eat the M3 almost for breakfast in any circumstance. Come on, I had a E46m3 and E90 M3 before, have any of you ever driven a 1M? It has THEORETICALLY 80HP less...al lot more Nm and weighs less....

We all know a M3/1M etc can go to 60 in about 4.5 seconds , can do 155mph or even more. I know this is a US based site I like very much, but how many of you have tried to go to 60 in 4.5(ok maybe a lot) but the 155mph I guess not many of you/us. (Me >100 of times being near the German border so to speak) . The same theory for going around a track in XX:XX time. We all know you need to put the DTC etc to low/off to get the best results. How many of the M drivers do that actually. (I do) Not many I'm sure(worldwide and on this site). So theory and practice are 2 totally different worlds.

Cheers
Robin(Former E90M3)

Last edited by Robin_NL; 02-09-2013 at 02:44 AM.
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      02-09-2013, 04:00 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Nice theory and I agree with that theory, but PRACTICALLY the Excellent Fantastic Masterpiece M3 V8 with >8000rpm is put in the WRONG (read way TOO heavy, meaning feeling lazy at lower and normal revs ) vehicle called E90/92/93.
There is no debate that lighter weight with fixed power is better. There is also no debate that an improved power to weight ratio makes for a faster vehicle. Lastly, there is no debate that most enthusiasts would have preferred a lighter E9X M3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Why does a 1M with way less POWER eat the M3 almost for breakfast in any circumstance.
Well, unfortunately that is patently false. However, the reason the 1M comes close the the M3 in some circumstances is because of simple physics in line with Bruce's post.

1. It is very likely underrated.
2. It has an over boost feature which BMW claims makes extra torque but not extra PEAK hp, which either way certainly makes more power at some rpm.
3. It is lighter than the M3 ultimately giving it a close power to weight ratio.

Thus when driven properly and aggressively it is a bit slower than the M3.

In case you missed the part of the debate about power vs. torque it implicitly means those for things all else equal (most importantly weight).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
We all know a M3/1M etc can go to 60 in about 4.5 seconds , can do 155mph or even more
The M3 has got to 60 mph (with 1 foot standard US roll out) in 3.9s. And delimited one can get past 180 mph. The 1M can do neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
I know this is a US based site I like very much, but how many of you have tried to go to 60 in 4.5(ok maybe a lot) but the 155mph I guess not many of you/us. (Me >100 of times being near the German border so to speak) . The same theory for going around a track in XX:XX time. We all know you need to put the DTC etc to low/off to get the best results. How many of the M drivers do that actually. (I do) Not many I'm sure(worldwide and on this site). So theory and practice are 2 totally different worlds.
Since when does an aggressive driver make a smart automotive engineer or physicist? I don't care how fast you can drive, you clearly do not understand the basics of automotive performance, specifically with regards to the classic torque vs. power debate.

A couple other other key facts:

1. You do realize that torque is meaningless without also knowing gear ratios? That is basically what hp tells you, the combination of torque and rpm. That is why hp tells much more than torque.

2. At any given speed if two equal weight cars accelerate the one producing the higher power at that speed will ALWAYS pull on the other car. This is an absolutely non debatable issue stemming from basic physics. The relevant equation is simply a = P/mv, acceleration is power/mass x velocity. Try to substitute torque into the equation and you have a requirement to know rpm! I only said at the same speed, not the same rpm. Get it now?
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      02-09-2013, 04:43 AM   #218
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Anyway, I 'll go back ontopic. The S55 can be a great engine for such a car wether it has 2 or 3 turbos, I'm fine with that.

They also need to get the weight down to at least 200lbs less than the current M3 please.

Cheers
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      02-09-2013, 07:01 AM   #219
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Quote:
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Nice theory and I agree with that theory, but...
Well, its a start at least.

I've removed a few parts from your posts (and the replies to them) so as to keep this thread free from off-topic controversy. If you wish to read more or contribute more posts, there are plenty of other existing threads regarding the M3 vs. the 1M, the S65 and its torque output, or other similar discussions. All I ask is that you use the designated forums. Thanks.
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      02-18-2013, 04:27 PM   #220
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Cool Car!
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