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      02-19-2013, 09:25 PM   #89
antzcrashing
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i like those answers
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      02-19-2013, 11:18 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by eMvy View Post
"It's not a change in philosophy, it's a change in technology. Turbocharging is better for fuel savings and CO2."

Forced induction has been around since the late 19th century. M cars have always had the opportunity to utilize FI, but they didn't. I would argue that this is a philosophical change fuel savings and CO2 emissions now take precedent over the driving experience. Whether this is good or bad can only be left to debate.
AMEN.

I am really disappointed in the direction BMW is going. They are investing all their money and time into electrical cars and fuel economy. For god sakes make one super-car that will prove that BMW M division is still a competitor.

All they talk about lately is fuel economy and bla bla. I know it's market driven but the way its going, BMW era will soon be over and it will be another car on the road. Hence I am holding on to my E93 M3 and E39 M5 till the end.
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      02-19-2013, 11:28 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by thegeneral101 View Post
I could definitely see the MT disappearing...but not until next generation. Nitschke basically gives himself an out with the "demand" comment. Who knows how they quantify "demand".

I think nearly everyone knows how they quantify "demand:" if the quantity of MTs they can build and sell will yield a profit, they will keep building and selling them.
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      02-19-2013, 11:39 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
Audi S3/RS3 Sedan = AWD
Mercedes CLA AMG = AWD
Audi RS4/5 = AWD
Mercedes E/CLS AMG = AWD
Mercedes C63 next gen = ???
Porsche baby panamera (future) = AWD option

All the Germans are doing it, come on BMW, give me a M2GC or M4GC with AWD option.

I had a C63 for 3 years, and got by just fine in the winter with winter tires, but switched to a 335 xdrive this year and LOVE it (also with winter tires), so much more fun to drive in the winter than the C63 was because of the increased traction when accelerating and in turns.

I think BMW is going to be suprised to see how many potential buyers go to Mercedes because of their AWD offering. Audi has been stealing customers for years because of it. AMG, M, S/RS all make amazing vehichles, can't say the same for all their "normal" cars though.
+1 I would love an AWD M3.
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      02-19-2013, 11:45 PM   #93
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Hey, what's up?
lol
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      02-20-2013, 02:24 AM   #94
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Hey, what's up?
lol
Ha that is funny!!
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      02-20-2013, 02:35 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna_hp View Post
Oh I'm not saying that FI engines aren't a desirable compromise, I'm just saying that BMW PR is full of shit. They're purely corporate-minded. They are just going to say whatever makes them look best.

BMW PR was very negative on forced induction when some competitors were beginning to utilize it, especially on smaller engines. MB with their "Kompressor" engines in some of their smaller cars, Audi with its 2.0T and 2.7T engines, and of course porsche had been selling their Turbo for a long time. BMW wanted to be seen as spiritually closer to Ferrari with their high revving engines.

Back then they were only selling NA engines so they claimed that FI engines inevitably lead to unacceptably compromised handling. Now they only have FI engines so they claim that NA is an unacceptable compromise on fuel economy.
Don't get me wrong I love a high revving NA engine. The M3 V8 was almost perfect, but maybe in the wrong(too heavy) body. That's all. A 458 anytime over a MP 4-12C, the Porsche engines NA are great etc.

My current FI engine does higher mpg than my former M3 NA V8.
You can use the higher torque to stay in a higher gear than the NA M V8, press the throttle less and still accellerate in the same or faster way than that NA engine. Which makes it in THAT particular comparison the higher mpg engine. Pedal to the metal the differences get smaller or dissapear of course But I 'm not 24/7 on a track/WOT. Don't know about you

The F10 M5 irl is getting higher MPG than its predecessor E60 M5....

The RWD vs AWD debate: Make it an option to choose AWD... RWD also in the snow (with the M Diff and PROPER wintertyres on ) much more fun and more than enough traction but better playable as well. On a track we already know the answer.(ie 1M vs RS3)

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      02-20-2013, 10:34 AM   #96
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Gov regulations seem to make high horsepower cars weigh a lot unless you have the scrilla

A proper manual and rwd gives you the oh shit factor... Even w dct.. Most would still get the manual if it's available... Awd takes no skill

Safety over fun? Power to weight is where it is at.... M diff and light weight can give efficiency and rwd still maintain the oh shit factor

Amg makes good engine the rest is bloat, Audi awd is too front wheel biased and feels too safe and boring for fun

it is hard to eclipse a certain efficiency at high power levels... It's like becoming more like a corvette and less like an Aston

And w BMW's green trend, it is what it is just enjoy M while we can before it becomes I and this forum becomes all about fuelly and my MPG is bigger than yours
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      02-20-2013, 10:57 AM   #97
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"But as long as there is demand, we'll offer the manual."

This guy is not very excited about the future of the 6 spd.

Could it be because the e9x M 6spd eats too much gas. The DCT gets better, noticeably better, gas mileage than its 6spd brother. Without a 6spd offer, the M3 MPG sticker numbers would probably go up a notch or two. That's something BMW would die for because, like it or not, those numbers, among other things, sell cars.
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      02-20-2013, 02:21 PM   #98
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God bless this man. FWD has ruined so many awesome cars. This push for Scares me. Dont get me wrong AWD is great and can be awesome but I want my RWD!
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      02-20-2013, 03:13 PM   #99
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I am hoping bmw keeps the manual around...

Didn't BMW just patent a 7-speed manual for its own use like Porsche did?

I really like manual with turbo cars... and dct with na I am not sure why... maybe it's the bov noise

I also really hope BMW brings not just awd, but m awd with a manual transmission for those enthusiasts... but is it that the manual can't handle the torque for warranty issues?

I become more attached to a car when it is a manual because it is more engaging and you become one with the car
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      02-21-2013, 02:59 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The M Performance brand offers customers features considered taboo for the BMW M brand such as Diesel and xDrive.
Outdated. BMW M550D has VIN is probably started from WBS... This vin is registered for the BMW ///M.
review:
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M registry:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
As long as your car is equipped with good winter tyres then you will have substantial traction , ...
You just don't. Mine are equipped, both. RWD with winter tires may fail in simple situations. Everybody knows that.
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      02-21-2013, 03:04 AM   #101
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... Audi awd is too front wheel biased and feels too safe and boring for fun
Outdated. Audi is used to have 50:50, but now gen 5 quattro has 40:60 (exactly the same ratio as xdrive has) + you may order sport dif. I mean true-quattro, not golf based cars like audi tt etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro...l-drive_system)
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      02-21-2013, 06:10 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Echoz View Post
Its very simple, make all cars RWD and leave the xDrive as an option, just like you have the DCT with a Manual option. Some people will buy these cars with AWD and some will take them with RWD. But if you offer AWD, Audi wont be happy!
The problem with offering AWD as an options is just like the DCT problem. DCT is so popular that Porsche will be offering the GT3 just with PDK, the MT is gone. Just like how the M3 is the only M car available with a stick here and i'm sure for the next gen it will be a DCT only option. This will happen to RWD sooner or later if BMW starts to add AWD option. After a period of time, BMW M Boss will come in and say "We must keep up with technology, RWD is history" and such. What you said is nice and will solve all the problems, but that's not gonna happen. Not at least with current BMW managers who's their first goal is making more money no matter what.
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      02-21-2013, 06:27 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by KSERGEI-BY View Post
Outdated. Audi is used to have 50:50, but now gen 5 quattro has 40:60 (exactly the same ratio as xdrive has) + you may order sport dif. I mean true-quattro, not golf based cars like audi tt etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro...l-drive_system)
The Quattro in my R8 was marvelous. I could feel it working but it would never Interfere with what i was doing behind the wheel. It allows you to do whatever you want, just doesn't let you kill yourself. The 997.2 Turbo had similar system, but wasn't as fun as Quattro.
Regarding to other Quattro cars, they are not close to R8. The last Quattro car i tested was a pre-facelift RS5 and it suffered from understeer because if it sensed any traction lose, it would send more power to the front wheels which always makes things worse. The Audi driver said it's because i wasn't familiar with the nose-heavy layout, but whatever it was the car didn't work like it supposed to do.
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      02-21-2013, 07:05 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by tuna_hp
Don't forget people: this is all PR. There's no reason to believe that this even honestly represents their current thinking, much less what their thinking will be in 1 or 2 years.

Case in point: I remember about 5 years ago reading a very similar short interview with a BMW executive about the direction that their cars would be taking. BMW was extremely quick to point out that they believed that all forced induction engines were terrible and that they would never offer them extensiely. They claimed that turbocharged engines only add torque, not very much power, and that more torque with about the same power just means that you need a heavier driveline, heavier axles, heavier brakes, and in the end, heavier everything, making the car a poorer handler without making it faster in an enthusiast driving scenarios.

What they said at the time was and still is true. But how did that go for us? You can't even purchase a naturally aspirated engine from BMW anymore.

Same thing will go for AWD. Porsche and Audi have always offered their M5 competitor in AWD only, and MB looks to be heading that way as well. And there is some sense to it when these cars are putting out 600+hp real world figures. How long after the RS6, Panamera Turbo S, and E63, all with AWD, start leaving the M5 last place in the comparison tests? How long after that until BMW starts offering a version of the M5 with AWD? And when the take rate on the AWD M5 is 80%+, how long does BMW continue to offer RWD?

I'm not even saying its a bad thing. Yeah it will negatively effect handling, but when you have a 600+ hp engine in a FR layout large sedan, you'll almost certainly be faster around any track with the extra traction of 2 more drive wheels than you will be relying on the marginally superior dynamics of the RWD car.
The reason that M5 is in last place is because the handling is rather poor. Too much weight and poor steering response.

Don't think AWD would make M5 any better. In fact with extra weight it would make it even less fun to drive
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      02-21-2013, 08:40 AM   #105
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with regards to AWD/RWD and driving dynamics.....

BMW's contention of RWD giving a more precise and dynamic feel falls flat on its face in relation to the design direction of the rest of the cars, especially the M5 and M6. If you want precise and dynamic, you need smaller and lighter. If you are going to build large brutish luxo-powerhouses, that is fine, but in that case, give them AWD to get the power to the ground. The M5 can't get it's existing power to the ground effectively, and the dynamics are compromised by its size. Could you imagine a car with todays technology and materials in the size of the E39 M5? How about a 3800lb M5 with a twin turbo 4L V8 that produces like 470hp and 400 lb-ft. That car with 255/295 tires and RWD would be phenomenal.
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      02-22-2013, 03:28 AM   #106
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It's the governments basically forcing them to use Turbo Chargers otherwise they couldn't meet future emission requirements. It really sucks... I guess I'll be an oldtimer fan when I get older
This is not the case. BMW is doing this for cost savings. The big evil green infested goverments of the world are not forcing their hand. This has been extensively debated in some other threads. See this one in particular.
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      02-22-2013, 03:31 AM   #107
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Don't forget people: this is all PR. There's no reason to believe that this even honestly represents their current thinking, much less what their thinking will be in 1 or 2 years.

Case in point: I remember about 5 years ago reading a very similar short interview with a BMW executive about the direction that their cars would be taking. BMW was extremely quick to point out that they believed that all forced induction engines were terrible and that they would never offer them extensiely. They claimed that turbocharged engines only add torque, not very much power, and that more torque with about the same power just means that you need a heavier driveline, heavier axles, heavier brakes, and in the end, heavier everything, making the car a poorer handler without making it faster in an enthusiast driving scenarios.

What they said at the time was and still is true. But how did that go for us? You can't even purchase a naturally aspirated engine from BMW anymore.

Same thing will go for AWD. Porsche and Audi have always offered their M5 competitor in AWD only, and MB looks to be heading that way as well. And there is some sense to it when these cars are putting out 600+hp real world figures. How long after the RS6, Panamera Turbo S, and E63, all with AWD, start leaving the M5 last place in the comparison tests? How long after that until BMW starts offering a version of the M5 with AWD? And when the take rate on the AWD M5 is 80%+, how long does BMW continue to offer RWD?

I'm not even saying its a bad thing. Yeah it will negatively effect handling, but when you have a 600+ hp engine in a FR layout large sedan, you'll almost certainly be faster around any track with the extra traction of 2 more drive wheels than you will be relying on the marginally superior dynamics of the RWD car.
Big +1. Companies say what they think people want to hear. They don't giving away the truth behind what actually drives their decisions.

Last edited by swamp2; 02-24-2013 at 10:33 PM.
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      02-22-2013, 08:30 AM   #108
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The succes of next M3/M4 depends quite a lot of their weight.
Related to it they may not need an x-drive option.
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      02-22-2013, 12:31 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
Could you imagine a car with todays technology and materials in the size of the E39 M5? How about a 3800lb M5 with a twin turbo 4L V8 that produces like 470hp and 400 lb-ft. That car with 255/295 tires and RWD would be phenomenal.
Well you must be darn excited about the F80 M3 then? Twin turbo, e39 sized, approx 440hp, 400lb/ft and c.3500lbs with 255/275 tires and RWD.

I'll be getting one, though I may consider keeping the E92 as well as the 4.0 is a true masterpiece.
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      02-26-2013, 12:40 AM   #110
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This is not the case. BMW is doing this for cost savings. The big evil green infested goverments of the world are not forcing their hand. This has been extensively debated in some other threads. See this one in particular.
By 2016 the average fuel consumption of car manufacturers fleet has to be 56 mpg or something in the States. I know there is something like that in Germany and/or in the EU too. Might be even more strict. That's not possible with 500 HP naturally aspirated V10s. Turbo is a cheap way of using less gas and still delivering the power. But they are definitely also saving cash.

Last edited by kgroschi; 02-26-2013 at 12:44 AM. Reason: ...
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