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      03-07-2013, 01:39 AM   #1
BigMacSmallFries
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Bi-turbo confirmed instead of triple-turbo?

In the Car Magazine article that was published last month, they've stated that the new powertrain would include a bi-turbo instead of a triple-turbo (point #4):

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-...t-you-to-know/

Does this mean all bets for a triple turbo are off? I was seriously hoping for a triple turbo engine (two tiny turbos, combined with a large turbo just like the M diesel offerings in Europe). How amazing would it be having near maximum torque just off idle with a set up like this?

Could we get scott26 to confirm this? Also, since this is a next generation motor, and unrelated to the M5/M6 v8, is it possible for the redline to be substantially higher than 7200RPM as found in those?
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      03-07-2013, 06:11 AM   #2
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Car Magazine has also tried to pass renders of the M3 and M5 off as real images so they have little credibility IMO.

They may end up being right in the end either from luck or actual knowledge since anyone has a 50% chance when guessing either 2 or 3 turbos. But I'd take their info with a huge block of salt anyway.
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      03-07-2013, 06:30 AM   #3
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No way for higher redline in a turbo engine.
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      03-07-2013, 03:09 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amdmaxx View Post
No way for higher redline in a turbo engine.
The mclaren mp4 spins up to 8500rpm with a twin turbo. I think if this engine was able to hit 8000rpm, a lot of current m3 owners would be pleased.
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      03-07-2013, 03:11 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 09BlkSapphire View Post
Car Magazine has also tried to pass renders of the M3 and M5 off as real images so they have little credibility IMO.

They may end up being right in the end either from luck or actual knowledge since anyone has a 50% chance when guessing either 2 or 3 turbos. But I'd take their info with a huge block of salt anyway.
Yea, they present the article as fact, but I hear you. I'd love a triple turbo straight six that can spin to 8000rpm.
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      03-07-2013, 06:23 PM   #6
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My bet is 2 turbos in sequential one smaller twinscroll for lower rpm and one larger singlescroll for higher rpm.
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      03-15-2013, 01:09 AM   #7
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Yea, so automobile mag is betting on the triple turbo. I think I am too, I find the term "multi" turbo was thrown around by decent sources on bimmerpost on a couple occasions. I feel there would be no reason to use the word "multi" if it was a twin turbo.

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/spie...#axzz2NaNnIxML
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      03-15-2013, 03:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries View Post
Yea, they present the article as fact, but I hear you. I'd love a triple turbo straight six that can spin to 8000rpm.
It is almost impossible, that an I6 based on the N55 can attain an redline of 8.000rpm ... the only BMW turbo engine which would be able to do this, is an S63Tü based V6 - because of his square cylinder design.
This engine, an 3.2ltr.V6 BiTurbo has run into an endurance test on the engine test bench with this 8.000rpm ... which has probably led to the rumors of a redline of 8.000rpm for the new M3/M4 engine
But the probably next M3/M4 engine, an 3.0ltr.I6 TriTurbo will almost certainly have a redline of ~ 7.000rpm.

Greets Uli_HH
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      03-15-2013, 08:32 AM   #9
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M3 E9X: 8.400 rpm
GT3 997: 8.400 rpm

M3 F8X: 7.000 rpm
GT3 991: 9.000 rpm

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      03-15-2013, 09:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
M3 E9X: 8.400 rpm
GT3 997: 8.400 rpm

M3 F8X: 7.000 rpm
GT3 991: 9.000 rpm

Isn't the 991 GT3 a naturally aspirated engine? Not turbo
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      03-15-2013, 12:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
M3 E9X: 8.400 rpm
GT3 997: 8.400 rpm

M3 F8X: 7.000 rpm
GT3 991: 9.000 rpm


Why compare a turbo engine to an NA engine?
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      03-15-2013, 12:20 PM   #12
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I'm sure they'll call it a tri-turbo but it will likely be a twinscroll plus single scroll. ///Marketing will be all over this.
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      03-15-2013, 01:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 09BlkSapphire View Post
Car Magazine has also tried to pass renders of the M3 and M5 off as real images so they have little credibility IMO.

They may end up being right in the end either from luck or actual knowledge since anyone has a 50% chance when guessing either 2 or 3 turbos. But I'd take their info with a huge block of salt anyway.
Agreed. Car magazine's credibility is not the best right now.

But

Even a blind chicken can find food once in a while.
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      03-15-2013, 04:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
It is almost impossible, that an I6 based on the N55 can attain an redline of 8.000rpm ... the only BMW turbo engine which would be able to do this, is an S63Tü based V6 - because of his square cylinder design.
This engine, an 3.2ltr.V6 BiTurbo has run into an endurance test on the engine test bench with this 8.000rpm ... which has probably led to the rumors of a redline of 8.000rpm for the new M3/M4 engine
But the probably next M3/M4 engine, an 3.0ltr.I6 TriTurbo will almost certainly have a redline of ~ 7.000rpm.

Greets Uli_HH


How come were assuming that more than just the engine block from the S55 will be used and bored out? the 991 GT3 engine is extremely different than that of the Carrera S even though the same block is used initially. Is there a source that indicated they would be very similar?

Assuming the M5 revs to 7200rpm, I think it would be impossible for the M3 to rev lower than that. I think realistically we should expect 7200 or 7300 as the minimum. 7200-7600 would be expected, 7600-8000 would be a nice surprise.
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      03-15-2013, 05:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries View Post
How come were assuming that more than just the engine block from the S55 will be used and bored out? the 991 GT3 engine is extremely different than that of the Carrera S even though the same block is used initially. Is there a source that indicated they would be very similar?

Assuming the M5 revs to 7200rpm, I think it would be impossible for the M3 to rev lower than that. I think realistically we should expect 7200 or 7300 as the minimum. 7200-7600 would be expected, 7600-8000 would be a nice surprise.
If you use the N55 block to develop the M3/M4 engine, its clear that the stroke was greater than the bore, an layout that make it almost impossible to combine high rpm and high pressure turbos, simply because the resulting forces are going too high ... only with an square cylinder layout it was possible to combine high pressure turbos with 8.000rpm.
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      03-15-2013, 05:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
If you use the N55 block to develop the M3/M4 engine, its clear that the stroke was greater than the bore, an layout that make it almost impossible to combine high rpm and high pressure turbos, simply because the resulting forces are going too high ... only with an square cylinder layout it was possible to combine high pressure turbos with 8.000rpm.
Ohhhh, thats what you mean by square cylinder. I just call those short stroke, big bore engines aka 'racing engines'. lol I see, so what you're saying is only the stroke length can be increased but not the bore due to thickness limitations inbetween the cylinders. But what if the distance between the cylinder walls on the updated S55 are much thicker allowing for a bore out? I wouldn't assume it would be the same as the N55.
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      03-18-2013, 10:02 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries View Post
I was seriously hoping for a triple turbo engine (two tiny turbos, combined with a large turbo just like the M diesel offerings in Europe).
Where does this thoery come from? I am not sure what's the M diesel offering in Europe. But 3 traditional turbo wont work for 6 cylinders, it's basic mechanism. The tri-turbo in rumor is a electric turbo (more like a motor) working at low end to keep traditional turbos alive and disconnected where exhaust start to take over the job.

If the gen to come is to utilize bigger turbos pursuing high end at cost of low end reponsiveness that N54/55 is good at, which is most likely the case, it's not worth the wait at all.

Nobody is going to be fine with a lighter and less powerful M5.
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      03-18-2013, 10:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Where does this thoery come from? I am not sure what's the M diesel offering in Europe. But 3 traditional turbo wont work for 6 cylinders, it's basic mechanism. The tri-turbo in rumor is a electric turbo (more like a motor) working at low end to keep traditional turbos alive and disconnected where exhaust start to take over the job.
Theory comes from this:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/b...50d-2012-01-26
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      04-03-2013, 01:32 AM   #19
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Take N55 updates and apply it to the N54 setup... Call it the S55 and have three sources of intake charge air

1. Scooped from kidneys (air cooled ic)
2. Driver lower louvre intake (water cooled)
3. Either passenger lower louvre or from hood

The current M3 provides 3 sources of intake air and so will the new one

It may have a third electric turbo but I'm thinking either N54 set up or dual twin scrolls
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      04-03-2013, 02:32 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
It is almost impossible, that an I6 based on the N55 can attain an redline of 8.000rpm ... the only BMW turbo engine which would be able to do this, is an S63Tü based V6 - because of his square cylinder design.
This engine, an 3.2ltr.V6 BiTurbo has run into an endurance test on the engine test bench with this 8.000rpm ... which has probably led to the rumors of a redline of 8.000rpm for the new M3/M4 engine
But the probably next M3/M4 engine, an 3.0ltr.I6 TriTurbo will almost certainly have a redline of ~ 7.000rpm.

Greets Uli_HH
Considering that the S54 was undersquare and spun to 8000RPM there is no reason that the "S55" couldn't...... The reason it won't spin that high is because it won't have to since the turbos will allow peak power at a lower RPM than traditional NA M engines.
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      04-03-2013, 10:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries View Post
Could we get scott26 to confirm this?
Probably not. We aren't likely to get such engine details until BMW is ready to release them, which will probably happen sometime later this year.

Quote:
Also, since this is a next generation motor, and unrelated to the M5/M6 v8, is it possible for the redline to be substantially higher than 7200RPM as found in those?
It is possible, sure, but not likely. Generally, higher RPM means less efficiency (its not necessily that simple of course, but typically that's how it works), and they are trying to maximize efficiency with their turbocharged engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
It is almost impossible, that an I6 based on the N55 can attain an redline of 8.000rpm ... the only BMW turbo engine which would be able to do this, is an S63Tü based V6 - because of his square cylinder design.
The shape of the cylinder is not really important for max RPM. Rather, it is stroke length. The N55 and N63 have nearly identical stroke: 89.6mm and 89mm respectively. The 8000 RPM S54 has a similar stroke and Audi's V8 and V10 are actually 93mm and rev as high as 8500 RPM in some applications. Of course, those are all NA engines. The turbocharged McLaren engine has a very short stroke by comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries View Post
But what if the distance between the cylinder walls on the updated S55 are much thicker allowing for a bore out? I wouldn't assume it would be the same as the N55.
That would mean a brand new engine architecture with high costs. The whole point of working with an existing engine as a basis is to use existing tooling and maintain compatibility with some existing parts such as timing assembly, accessories, mounts, etc.
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      04-28-2013, 08:33 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanwillnotreturn View Post
Where does this thoery come from? I am not sure what's the M diesel offering in Europe. But 3 traditional turbo wont work for 6 cylinders, it's basic mechanism. The tri-turbo in rumor is a electric turbo (more like a motor) working at low end to keep traditional turbos alive and disconnected where exhaust start to take over the job.

If the gen to come is to utilize bigger turbos pursuing high end at cost of low end reponsiveness that N54/55 is good at, which is most likely the case, it's not worth the wait at all.

Nobody is going to be fine with a lighter and less powerful M5.
It's not "theory" that a straight six can have three turbos...





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