BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > M3/M4 versus...

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-09-2013, 03:25 PM   #23
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 Felt IA2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,670
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Also - Audi doesn't need to worry about added weight in the back...
Like everyone else, Audi needs to be very concerned with adding weight anywhere and for any reason.

The current car is already built on MLB although the new one is rumored to be losing a couple hundred pounds or more.
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-09-2013, 04:12 PM   #24
drob23
Lieutenant Colonel
 
drob23's Avatar
 
Drives: S4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Michigan

Posts: 1,687
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Like everyone else, Audi needs to be very concerned with adding weight anywhere and for any reason.

The current car is already built on MLB although the new one is rumored to be losing a couple hundred pounds or more.
I read your comments as making the point that it is necessary to counterbalance the weight of the batteries. My point is the balance is already so far forward that *if additional weight need be added* it's better to do it in the back of the car.
__________________
UNDRSTR
drob23 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2013, 04:45 AM   #25
.:R
Registered
 
Drives: 2007 Volkswagen Golf MKV R32
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posts: 3
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTO24 View Post
Oh absolutely.. I enjoy my s4 as a DD, but it leaves something to be desired in the driving characteristics department......
Really? Have you seen the motortrend comparo of the S4 and the f30 335i, they decided to pick the S4 as the more enjoyable driving car. Also a magazine in my country, a reputable one too (not some Topgear rubbish) liked the new spec 2013 a4 over the f30 328i saying it handled alot better and was better balanced and more enjoyable.... you might be surprised when u drive an f30 3 series and decide your lucky you have an S4
.:R is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2013, 08:22 AM   #26
Tåst
Second Lieutenant
 
Tåst's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW, I think.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FIN

Posts: 220
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by .:R View Post
Really? Have you seen the motortrend comparo of the S4 and the f30 335i, they decided to pick the S4 as the more enjoyable driving car. Also a magazine in my country, a reputable one too (not some Topgear rubbish) liked the new spec 2013 a4 over the f30 328i saying it handled alot better and was better balanced and more enjoyable.... you might be surprised when u drive an f30 3 series and decide your lucky you have an S4
Bad comparo, F30 335i is like 316i whit just bigger engine, S4 chassis is optimised more to fast driving. But if just looking cars concepts, Bmw is better, engine is not so front than Audi´s.
Tåst is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2013, 11:16 AM   #27
drob23
Lieutenant Colonel
 
drob23's Avatar
 
Drives: S4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Michigan

Posts: 1,687
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by .:R View Post
Really? Have you seen the motortrend comparo of the S4 and the f30 335i, they decided to pick the S4 as the more enjoyable driving car. Also a magazine in my country, a reputable one too (not some Topgear rubbish) liked the new spec 2013 a4 over the f30 328i saying it handled alot better and was better balanced and more enjoyable.... you might be surprised when u drive an f30 3 series and decide your lucky you have an S4
I have an S4 and almost had a F30 and while the 3er has become bigger and audi has become more sporty...the S4 is still a heavier and more forward weight biased car. They've improved in the understeer department by biasing the center diff torque split more to the back and moved the front axle forward relative to the engine, and even with the rear active diff the car still understeers. You can throw on sways+links along with a Alu Kreuz to help, but you are still fighting physics to rotate the nose.

I find it hard to believe that an A4 was considered a better handling car than a 328i, wouldn't even be a contest if the 3er has a m-sport kit, the N20 is a much peppier engine than the 2.0T - plus the weight difference really takes a toll. F30 IMO has biggest issue with power delivery due the to lack of a rear LSD. Hopefully the new M4 will be much lighter a la the E46 chassis, I think the F8x is going to kick some serious ass.
__________________
UNDRSTR
drob23 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2013, 12:37 PM   #28
donovan
Brigadier General
 
donovan's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 m3 AW, light package
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: le' Murica

Posts: 3,479
iTrader: (12)

I love BMW but that Audi is tits.
__________________


e46 m3 Black
Too many mods
donovan is offline   Germany
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2013, 12:54 PM   #29
solstice
Colonel
 
Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle

Posts: 2,169
iTrader: (0)

This:

"MLB-evo B9 Will Be Lighter. Audi is focusing hard on pulling weight out of the next-generation of longitudinal architecture, so much so that the cars will shed about 100 kg over current versions and a more radical ‘ultra’ spec will go even further."

If that Ultra version is close to 3000 lbs and the car has "BMW old-style" superb steering feel and weight I might just jump ship. Then again, the F80 will hopefully be a too big of a hurdle for Audi as the M3s always been. Just no crappy tuned EPS, pleeeze.
solstice is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2013, 11:11 PM   #30
.:R
Registered
 
Drives: 2007 Volkswagen Golf MKV R32
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posts: 3
iTrader: (0)

It will be a good fight i am very intrested to see the outcome. B9 RS5 vs f80 M3. ... cant wait! my guess is that the Audi will have more HP they are quoting 475 while BMW quote 450. M3 should be a bit lighter. Like it always is (no front diff). But will it be light enough to outway the traction advantage the RS5 will have? So many variables. Both cars are also so far away still. 2014 for M3 and 2015 for RS5 right?
.:R is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 05:54 AM   #31
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 Felt IA2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,670
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by .:R View Post
It will be a good fight i am very intrested to see the outcome. B9 RS5 vs f80 M3. ... cant wait! my guess is that the Audi will have more HP they are quoting 475 while BMW quote 450. M3 should be a bit lighter. Like it always is (no front diff). But will it be light enough to outway the traction advantage the RS5 will have? So many variables.
Yes and don't forget to include the ~500hp W205 "C63" AMG as well which very likely will have AWD available too.

Quote:
Both cars are also so far away still. 2014 for M3 and 2015 for RS5 right?
Although the author of this thread pitted a sedan against a coupe, in reality it will be the M4 and RS5 competing for buyers. So 2015 at the earliest. That said, I don't think the next RS5 will get here that soon anyway. Probably 2016/2017 which still puts it much closer to the A5/S5 release than was the case for B8.

Incidentally, with BMW redoubling efforts on the M3 sedan and Mercedes clearly keeping their investment in the C Class AMG sedan, I would actually be very surprised if Audi chooses to ignore this market again and thumbs their nose up at a B9 RS4 sedan. So I'd expect to see that one, possibly debuting before the RS5.
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 08:27 AM   #32
Tåst
Second Lieutenant
 
Tåst's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW, I think.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FIN

Posts: 220
iTrader: (0)

B9 RS5 will get V6, Toyota Camry uses V6...but M3 will use I6, like first Jaguar E-type. I6 just sound hundred times better and rev to red line faster than V6, many not seems know how huge differend is between these layots, allways talking "six cylinder engines". Second big differend is drive-train, M3 will be more fun car to drive, something what remember old school times, rwd, highrevvin I6, manual gearbox and light body. B9 RS5 granny paddles and awd.
Tåst is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 09:20 AM   #33
Levi
Brigadier General
 
Levi's Avatar
 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

Posts: 3,243
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
B9 RS5 will get V6, Toyota Camry uses V6...but M3 will use I6, like first Jaguar E-type. I6 just sound hundred times better and rev to red line faster than V6, many not seems know how huge differend is between these layots, allways talking "six cylinder engines". Second big differend is drive-train, M3 will be more fun car to drive, something what remember old school times, rwd, highrevvin I6, manual gearbox and light body. B9 RS5 granny paddles and awd.




F1 2014 uses V6.
Levi is offline   Czech_Republic
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 09:38 AM   #34
Tåst
Second Lieutenant
 
Tåst's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW, I think.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: FIN

Posts: 220
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post



F1 2014 uses V6.
So what? They are also 1.6 or 1.5L? displacement, Bmw use I4 old times, when turbochargin are allowed. Now back to the basics 1.6L displacement engine must rev over 10000rpm to produce 600-700bhp and that not possible whit Inline six ( becouse long crank and harmonic vibration), but now we are talking road going vehicles and manufactures use V6 only becouse it not so long layot, everything else is better on I6.
Tåst is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 10:01 AM   #35
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 Felt IA2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,670
iTrader: (1)

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but we mustn't forget that there are some amazing V6 engines out there as well. Consider the Nissan GTR, a car that competes in all performance categories with supercars costing up to ten times its price.

Speaking of supercars, and speaking of Jaguar too, credit must be given there as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_XJ220.

It isn't necessarily the engine layout that will make the next M3/M4 a great car (nor any BMW for that matter, though it doesn't hurt either), but I agree with you that the I6 tends to have a better exhaust note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
B9 RS5 will get V6, Toyota Camry uses V6...but M3 will use I6, like first Jaguar E-type. I6 just sound hundred times better and rev to red line faster than V6, many not seems know how huge differend is between these layots, allways talking "six cylinder engines".
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 12:16 PM   #36
drob23
Lieutenant Colonel
 
drob23's Avatar
 
Drives: S4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Michigan

Posts: 1,687
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I appreciate what you are trying to say, but we mustn't forget that there are some amazing V6 engines out there as well. Consider the Nissan GTR, a car that competes in all performance categories with supercars costing up to ten times its price.

Speaking of supercars, and speaking of Jaguar too, credit must be given there as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_XJ220.

It isn't necessarily the engine layout that will make the next M3/M4 a great car (nor any BMW for that matter, though it doesn't hurt either), but I agree with you that the I6 tends to have a better exhaust note.
I'm a car noob, but my understanding is the I6 is better balanced and more refined in terms of vibration, not sure about performance differences. The packaging is worse, hence why bmw puts the front axle so far forward relative to the engine. Audi on the other hand needs the B8 platform to satisfy everything from the RS5 4.2 to transverse mounted CVT A4's.

As a side note, I've read that Audi's current 3.0 engine is pretty outdated in terms of engine tech - specifically no variable valve timing. Seems Audi/VW has had problems with carbon buildup for the last decade or so, which could be due to egr use to reduce emissions. Seems like changing exhaust valve timing would be a better way to meet emission requirements and intake valve timing should improve performance.

Regarding your earlier post about RS5 availability, considering the B8.5 *just* went on sale here in the US, makes me think a new RS5 is still quite a ways off (3 years minimum). I haven't followed cars for very long, but Audi seems to have strange RS model availability, even more dubious in North American markets.
__________________
UNDRSTR
drob23 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 01:32 PM   #37
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 Felt IA2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,670
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I'm a car noob, but my understanding is the I6 is better balanced and more refined in terms of vibration, not sure about performance differences.
Right, it is a better balanced engine but I was only addressing the point made about performance. Since we are not talking about engines anywhere near their absolute physical limits as far as the output is concerned, there are no performance differences.

Quote:
Audi on the other hand needs the B8 platform to satisfy everything from the RS5 4.2 to transverse mounted CVT A4's.
There are no transversely mounted engines in the A4 (nor any other Audi of that size or larger), nor is the MLB platform designed to accommodate transverse engines. That is a job for the MQB platform.

Quote:
As a side note, I've read that Audi's current 3.0 engine is pretty outdated in terms of engine tech...
The new VAG 3.0L turbo as seen in the Panamera will most likely replace the supercharged V6 in the next five years. It will also take over for the naturally aspirated V8 in its current 400hp+ applications (i.e. RS4/RS5), except maybe for the R8 (too early to call, plus next R8 may be 500hp+ only anyway).

Quote:
Regarding your earlier post about RS5 availability, considering the B8.5 *just* went on sale here in the US, makes me think a new RS5 is still quite a ways off (3 years minimum). I haven't followed cars for very long, but Audi seems to have strange RS model availability, even more dubious in North American markets.
Agree, that is why I say 2016/2017 too. Both the B9 A4/S4 and W205 C Class arrive next year to take on the F30. AMG models will come in 2015 to join the M3 and M4, RS models will lag behind that somewhat.

Audi is working to bring RS models earlier in the cycle. It used to be that there was only one RS model on sale at any give time and they were very short run cars by design. Now there are many (just two in the US right now, however), and they go for multiple years.
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 01:59 PM   #38
drob23
Lieutenant Colonel
 
drob23's Avatar
 
Drives: S4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Michigan

Posts: 1,687
iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the clarification, not sure why I thought the FWD CVT A4 has a transverse engine mount, especially considering it's on the MLB platform (as you said)

Interested to see how that TTV6 performs on the Panamera, I'd be surprised if the R8 went away from NA engines.
__________________
UNDRSTR
drob23 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 02:15 PM   #39
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 Felt IA2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,670
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I'd be surprised if the R8 went away from NA engines.
Consider that the next SLS is rumored to move to the new 4.0L M178 turbocharged V8 (debuting first in M177 form in the next C Class AMG). It somewhat opens up the door for Audi to move the R8 in that same direction (4.0L turbocharged VAG V8).
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 02:46 PM   #40
drob23
Lieutenant Colonel
 
drob23's Avatar
 
Drives: S4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Michigan

Posts: 1,687
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Consider that the next SLS is rumored to move to the new 4.0L M178 turbocharged V8 (debuting first in M177 form in the next C Class AMG). It somewhat opens up the door for Audi to move the R8 in that same direction (4.0L turbocharged VAG V8).
I've never driven one (sadly pulled out of Audi driving experience) but I'd think a prime selling point is the sound of the V10. Has the R8 ever really been about absolutely insane performance? I was thinking the supercar experience is more about having the responsiveness and noise of a high revving NA v10 in conjunction with mid-engine weight balance. I enjoyed the recent comparison between the GT-R and R8 on motor trend.

Isn't the current biturbo V8 in the S6/S7/S8/RS7 a better performer?
__________________
UNDRSTR
drob23 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 02:55 PM   #41
Levi
Brigadier General
 
Levi's Avatar
 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

Posts: 3,243
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Consider that the next SLS is rumored to move to the new 4.0L M178 turbocharged V8 (debuting first in M177 form in the next C Class AMG). It somewhat opens up the door for Audi to move the R8 in that same direction (4.0L turbocharged VAG V8).
Do we know if the next Gallardo gets a FI V8 or a NA V10? If the Gallardo keeps V10, R8 might very well keep that too.
Levi is offline   Czech_Republic
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 02:57 PM   #42
RMB
Lieutenant
 
RMB's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 Cayenne S
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

Posts: 567
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I did the Audi Driving Experience and it was great. I went from a loaded 2011 S4 to the M3 and I love both vehicles. The R8 in V10 form is a beast and I rode as a passenger on a hot lap with a professional driver in the R8 V10 plus. It was amazing! I can't imagine many vehicles that could be more fun to be in aside from other exotics. Ahhh, that V10!
RMB is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 05:37 PM   #43
zhpfanatic
New Member
 
Drives: '11 Alpine White E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Central Florida

Posts: 27
iTrader: (0)

Having just jumped into the E92 M3 arena, I sometimes still wonder if I made the right choice between that and an S4 as a daily driver. The days of natural aspiration are numbered and that alone is the most intriguing part of the outgoing M.

Having little experience in an Audi beyond some extended test drives, they have a fantastic product that is aided by technology to improve the driving experience; whereas, BMW is almost decaying their experience with the introduction of technology.
zhpfanatic is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2013, 06:14 PM   #44
JTO24
Got an 8:30 res at Dorsia
 
JTO24's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 MW E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: South Jersey

Posts: 1,146
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaAir View Post
Having just jumped into the E92 M3 arena, I sometimes still wonder if I made the right choice between that and an S4 as a daily driver. The days of natural aspiration are numbered and that alone is the most intriguing part of the outgoing M.

Having little experience in an Audi beyond some extended test drives, they have a fantastic product that is aided by technology to improve the driving experience; whereas, BMW is almost decaying their experience with the introduction of technology.
I loved my B8.5 S4! with the Stasis Tune that thing pulled! However, having just traded it in for a '13 M3, I'm veryyyyy happy with my decision! This car puts such a shit eating grin on my face every time I start it I just love this V8! The Audi did everything really well; it was comfortable, it had a ton of power, cooler Nav (Google Maps), supercharger whine, rear fogs, amazing traction, etc. But the intangible factor of wanting the M3 for so long I couldn't pass it up! I just drool over my car when walking to or from it; never did that really with the S4. I just looked at it like "Man it needs wheels and it'd probably sound better with an exhaust" but with the M3 I'm completely content with it stock..for now (the mod bug is strong in me) But I'd definitely consider Audi again in the future no doubt
__________________
2013 E92 M3 6MT | Mineral White | Fox Red/Black/Black | 359M | CF Roof | RS Technik 15f/12r Spacers | ACM Test Pipes| ESS Rear Section | BPM Stage II | Manual Seats
JTO24 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:01 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST