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      07-18-2013, 11:41 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER View Post
Nav and extras add weight and expense. No need for it if you plan to track
Why would Nav add weight? The screen is already standard so Nav is just software - my phone has nav and i don't think the weight of my phone would slow down an M3
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      07-18-2013, 11:57 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER View Post
Nav and extras add weight and expense. No need for it if you plan to track
Lets hope this version is trackable. Can it get through a 30 min track session without limp mode? Went to a BMWCCA event the other week. They were giving rides in the new M5, it went into limp after 1.5 laps.
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      07-18-2013, 02:13 PM   #91
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1. BMW can decide if it's 100 lbs or 150 lbs. It's 100 lbs on the scale for the base M3 car vs the CRT car. The 150 lbs is when you consider the weight from the extras in the base CRT as for example DCT etc.

2. Well either BMW is lying or the seats are heavier than your source state. It's one of the two.

I've seen info about the front seats being +60 lbs and the rear ~45 lbs. that's a 165 lbs combined. Shaving 50 lbs from that seems more than doable with CF and BMW show what they can do by saving more than twice of that.
The rear seats are indeed about 45 lb. As some useful reference material here is a great thread on how much it costs with aftermarket parts to save a given amount of weight in the E92 M3 (link).

So yes, indeed one has about 170 lb (again based on link above) to work with for seating weight in the E92 M3. That also assumes the 435i seats haven't already undergone some lightening work which surely they have. You can reduce the weight on many fronts, leather, foam, electronics and most importantly the motors and steel frame parts. There is very little steel in the rear seats and no motors. Thus the vast majority of the savings will come only from the front seats. The challenges are that M3 owners expect a daily driver. You can't put non power seats in, some may call that sad, but it is the reality. You also can't make really firm minimal padding seats. BMW also won't sacrifice on safety. Thus if a seat airbag got nixed it would probably migrate to a door. Last but not least carbon fiber is extremely expensive. So thus again, 50 lbs is roughly 50% of the front seats and that is extremely aggressive and doubtful.

Look again at the link above using BMWs own seats already available:
  • BMW performance bucket seats with side airbag: 55.7 lbs
  • Weight savings 14 lb (both front seats)
  • Cost $5000 (back in 2008 from Turner Motorsports)

IT COSTS A LOT OF MONEY TO SAVE WEIGHT! Sure that is not BMWs cost but fancy light seats with safety are darn expensive and not consistent with BMWs agressive cost savings programs.

Anyway back to the M4. A modest perhaps 30 pound savings is certainly possible. However, BMW may provide and optional seat, likely IMHO, such seats could be more extreme in design, not have motors and save way more than 30 pounds. But again they will be expensive and optional.

I'm not being a pessimist here, just an informed realist.
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      07-18-2013, 02:33 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The rear seats are indeed about 45 lb. As some useful reference material here is a great thread on how much it costs with aftermarket parts to save a given amount of weight in the E92 M3 (link).

So yes, indeed one has about 170 lb (again based on link above) to work with for seating weight in the E92 M3. That also assumes the 435i seats haven't already undergone some lightening work which surely they have. You can reduce the weight on many fronts, leather, foam, electronics and most importantly the motors and steel frame parts. There is very little steel in the rear seats and no motors. Thus the vast majority of the savings will come only from the front seats. The challenges are that M3 owners expect a daily driver. You can't put non power seats in, some may call that sad, but it is the reality. You also can't make really firm minimal padding seats. BMW also won't sacrifice on safety. Thus if a seat airbag got nixed it would probably migrate to a door. Last but not least carbon fiber is extremely expensive. So thus again, 50 lbs is roughly 50% of the front seats and that is extremely aggressive and doubtful.

Look again at the link above using BMWs own seats already available:
  • BMW performance bucket seats with side airbag: 55.7 lbs
  • Weight savings 14 lb (both front seats)
  • Cost $5000 (back in 2008 from Turner Motorsports)

IT COSTS A LOT OF MONEY TO SAVE WEIGHT! Sure that is not BMWs cost but fancy light seats with safety are darn expensive and not consistent with BMWs agressive cost savings programs.

Anyway back to the M4. A modest perhaps 30 pound savings is certainly possible. However, BMW may provide and optional seat, likely IMHO, such seats could be more extreme in design, not have motors and save way more than 30 pounds. But again they will be expensive and optional.

I'm not being a pessimist here, just an informed realist.
But you are being pessimistic. According to this link more could be saved but BMW choose to make the CRT's comfortable with ample padding. This link also touches on the potential link between the CRT and the F80:
http://www.bimmer-mag.com/issues/113...2#.UehBbWt5mSM

Furthermore realoem.com shows the 3 liter TT N54 at ~$11k and the S65 at ~$23k. The S65 is standard in the most basic M3. There should be room to spend significant $$$ on lightweight materials within reasonable end cost. The i3 and i8 also brought potential to share in R&D and production materials for CF parts plus added volume advantages. This could make earlier cost prohibiting constructions within reach for the M3's price point.

Time to be positive and look at possibilities and not be so negative with potentially old limitations. They kept the M5 pretty much the same weight as the 550i without the CRT treatment. Now if they do the same with the M3 vs the 335i and then add the CRT treatment and lighter wheels they are in striking distance of 3300 lbs without doing anything they haven't already done. Then add a few innovations and what do you know? Maybe it's not such a stretch after all.

Last edited by solstice; 07-18-2013 at 02:39 PM.
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      07-18-2013, 06:18 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
But you are being pessimistic. According to this link more could be saved but BMW choose to make the CRT's comfortable with ample padding. This link also touches on the potential link between the CRT and the F80:
http://www.bimmer-mag.com/issues/113...2#.UehBbWt5mSM
Again, any standard seating will lean more toward comfort and heavy. We are not getting ultralight racing seats nor will we get really expensive seats as the factory standard. You are clearly being overly optimistic.

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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Furthermore realoem.com shows the 3 liter TT N54 at ~$11k and the S65 at ~$23k. The S65 is standard in the most basic M3. There should be room to spend significant $$$ on lightweight materials within reasonable end cost. The i3 and i8 also brought potential to share in R&D and production materials for CF parts plus added volume advantages. This could make earlier cost prohibiting constructions within reach for the M3's price point.
Are you kidding? BMW is going to take all of the money saved by using a cheaper engine and turn right around and spend all or even most of that money on other stuff? Their idea is clearly to SAVE money not to keep costs the same. Yes, BMW is making progress on less expensive CF parts, however, the issue is the cost of the raw materials and even in high volumes that cost is not coming down by a significant factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Time to be positive and look at possibilities and not be so negative with potentially old limitations. They kept the M5 pretty much the same weight as the 550i without the CRT treatment. Now if they do the same with the M3 vs the 335i and then add the CRT treatment and lighter wheels they are in striking distance of 3300 lbs without doing anything they haven't already done. Then add a few innovations and what do you know? Maybe it's not such a stretch after all.
So the 435i being heavier than the 335i and the F10 M5 being heavier than the E60 M5 (by quite a bit) are reasons to be positive?

We're getting seriously OT here, but mark my words. There is going to be a ton of expensive options for the M3/M4 (seats likely, brakes virtually for sure, and probably others). There will also be special entire versions (CSL, CRT, GTS, whatever they will be called). Said options and models will be both very expensive but will save considerable weight. Without these options there is no way BMW will get sub 3300 lb CURB weight. We're also going to see a big hit on the base price of the M4 and despite the same base engine the M4 is going to cost significantly more than the M3.

If you feel otherwise post your claims and we'll see who is right. I think other than that we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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      07-18-2013, 07:05 PM   #94
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This has been driving me insane -- every picture that gets published of the preproduction cars, the first thing I do is zoom in on the gauge cluster to catch a glimpse of the redline. Without fail, every time, it's just a bit too far or a bit too blurry. Frustrating!
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      07-18-2013, 08:57 PM   #95
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I zoomed in on the cluster and see a silver grey appearance like the 1M and there is an 8 at the bottom right of it
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      07-19-2013, 03:28 PM   #96
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It doesn't make very much sense to me for the M3 sedan to share the headlights with the M4 coupe considering there will be an M4 Gran Coupe coming out soon. I believe, instead, what we are seeing is LED headlights on the F30/F80 body style for the first time. It makes more sense for the M3 sedan to have Xenons as standard and LED lights as optional.

Everything else (carbon fiber seats, "aluminum and magnesium and carbon fiber in the crash zones" from Motor Trend interview) sounds great so far.
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      07-19-2013, 03:30 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
...
Anyway back to the M4. A modest perhaps 30 pound savings is certainly possible. However, BMW may provide and optional seat, likely IMHO, such seats could be more extreme in design, not have motors and save way more than 30 pounds. But again they will be expensive and optional.

I'm not being a pessimist here, just an informed realist.
From Motor Trend interview with the head of M Gmbh:
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=866768

Motor Trend: Tell me about light weight. Is the new M4 lighter than a 435i?

Friedrich Nitschke: Absolutely. We will use lightweight parts in the places where it matters, at the ends of the car and high up, and in high-rpm parts of the powertrain. A carbon fiber roof, of course, and aluminum and magnesium and carbon fiber in the crash zones. An aluminum hood, and a new carbon fiber trunk lid.
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      07-20-2013, 08:47 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman Murch
I zoomed in on the cluster and see a silver grey appearance like the 1M and there is an 8 at the bottom right of it
Where do you see that? It's too blurry on my screen. Maybe an iPhone deficiency?
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