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      05-13-2014, 10:53 AM   #309
CanAutM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Not unreasonable. However, are you certain you could accomplish the identification in a totally blind and random fashion? I lean toward doubting so.
On the track, I am pretty sure I could, the difference wasn't subtle. Further, my exits speeds were lower, which is a pretty good giveaway. I feel a similar difference when I refill the gas tank and get back on the track. On the street, it would be much more difficult to feel the 90-100lb IMO.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 05-13-2014 at 12:32 PM.
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      05-13-2014, 12:13 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
On the track, I am pretty sure I could, the difference wasn't subtle. Further, my exits speeds were lower, which is a pretty good giveaway. On the street, it would be much more difficult to feel 90-100lb IMO.
Also the tranny isn't sitting next to you in the passenger seat (unless that's your thing), but beneath you in the center of the car. I would agree that someone wired into their car's performance might detect it, but it will be very subtle. An extra passenger is a bad analogy because of where the extra weight is added.
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      05-13-2014, 12:29 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
Also the tranny isn't sitting next to you in the passenger seat (unless that's your thing), but beneath you in the center of the car. I would agree that someone wired into their car's performance might detect it, but it will be very subtle. An extra passenger is a bad analogy because of where the extra weight is added.
Agreed. The tranny location is very close to the ideal point where you want any weight to be. Maybe just a little to much forward though.
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      05-13-2014, 01:36 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I disagree. In cars of this power to weight ratio, in straight ahead acceleration, I can feel the difference between passenger or no passenger (say 150-200 lb). That is on the order of 5%. My butt-o-meter is far from finely honed from years of road racing, but has gotten a decent work out on dirt bikes (rear wheel basically spinning all the time), snow machines, some off-roading in trucks, etc. For me I'm pretty sure I could't consistently identify 75 lb or so of difference. I think very experienced HPDE guys and certainly racers could probably identify consistently around 75 lb, but 25-50, doubt. Definitely no solid evidence/proof here, but reasonable numbers I believe.
I believe you. And that's impressive.

I have a friend that races professionally and when discussing the importance of weight loss in road cars I asked him if he could notice a 175-lb weight loss. He covered the differences between sprung and unsprung weight but ultimately said he couldn't feel the difference between a passenger and no passenger.

I used to race dirt bikes (back in the good old days of 2-stroke motors) as well but they're so much lighter that proportionally, 75 lbs of extra weight there is an entirely different story.

I honestly can't feel the difference between passenger and no-passenger either. Especially on the street. Like I said before, I'm sure (I'm certain) the numbers tell a different story.

But being able to really feel a tenth of a second worth of difference is truly impressive.
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      05-13-2014, 02:04 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
I believe you. And that's impressive.

I have a friend that races professionally and when discussing the importance of weight loss in road cars I asked him if he could notice a 175-lb weight loss. He covered the differences between sprung and unsprung weight but ultimately said he couldn't feel the difference between a passenger and no passenger.

I used to race dirt bikes (back in the good old days of 2-stroke motors) as well but they're so much lighter that proportionally, 75 lbs of extra weight there is an entirely different story.

I honestly can't feel the difference between passenger and no-passenger either. Especially on the street. Like I said before, I'm sure (I'm certain) the numbers tell a different story.

But being able to really feel a tenth of a second worth of difference is truly impressive.
I'm not a racer, but I could easily tell a slight, but noticeable acceleration difference when I had a passenger in my E36, E46, and E90 M3s. A 175 pound passenger represents a 5% increase in weight. Most would notice a 5% change in HP (21 HP) or torque (20 lb-ft) as well.

The point being, the bigger your girlfriend, the worse it is.
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      05-13-2014, 02:18 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Audio Fan View Post

The point being, the bigger your girlfriend, the worse it is.


I'm going to have to remember that one.
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      05-13-2014, 03:20 PM   #315
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I'm not joining the collective freakout over what amounts to half a tank of gas. If that's the standard, it could be argued that under real-life conditions, the E92 is the lighter car since it empties its tank faster.

I will say I am impressed they were able to achieve these weight reductions given the larger dimensions of the car, and I'm sure this is only the beginning. With them recently signing a $200 million contract to triple carbon fiber production, the Comp/LCI could shed even more weight. Speaking of the new dimensions, they've reached a point where the M3 actually works as a sedan for me (complete with engine character far less stressful for passengers), succeeding in the mission statement the E90 was too cramped and the F10 is too fat to fulfill. Incidentally, it doesn't really work as a coupe for me anymore, even before you consider the squat, squished profile and stupid branding of the F82. Thank goodness the sedan is the looker of the two, or I'd have to skip out on this generation entirely.
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      05-13-2014, 05:32 PM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koldun View Post
I'm not joining the collective freakout over what amounts to half a tank of gas. If that's the standard, it could be argued that under real-life conditions, the E92 is the lighter car since it empties its tank faster.
It's really quite close to a full tank... (difference between claimed difference vs. E92 M3 and actual difference).

It is also a bit of a pattern from BMW ///Marketing which really irks many of us. All the BS about the E92 M3 being "lighter". The BS about the M4 being a revolution in composites. The BS about how its CF driveshaft is new technology (perhaps it was for some Nissan sedans in the 90s...). Their radical change of focus insisting that high revving, NA with razor sharp throttle response is the heart and soul of an M car now to jumping on the bandwagon about torque, torque, torque. Their insistence that a 50-50 weight distribution is somehow chassis "magic". Others can surely add to this quick list right off the top of my head...
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      06-20-2014, 03:50 PM   #317
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