Road and Track asks, "What Cars are Better Without a Manual?"; answers, "M3/M4"

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by (((myzmak)))

manuals are cool and chicks love 'em.

Because they think, "Now there's a guy who's used to taking care of himself."

[zamboni]

myzmak was right on prefer the throttle control of a manual, you're in control instead of the car. How many 4 doors sedan out there still offer a 6MT?

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by zamboni

myzmak was right on prefer the throttle control of a manual, you're in control instead of the car. How many 4 doors sedan out there still offer a 6MT?

I'll have to admit that you guys lost me on the throttle control issue.

What does an MT have to do with throttle control?

[BMWM5NYC]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I'll have to admit that you guys lost me on the throttle control issue.

What does an MT have to do with throttle control?

I think they mean "clutch modulation/control" Lol

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by BMWM5NYC

I think they mean "clutch modulation/control" Lol

It seems that at some point mostl MT vs AT threads evolve into instruction manuals for some somewhat unconvertional driving techniques.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

It seems that at some point mostl MT vs AT threads evolve into instruction manuals for some somewhat unconvertional driving techniques.

It's like the Christians vs Gays. Each side has some strange notion that if they keep making their point, the other side will agree and change. They won't

[Aaaaaaaaa]

Originally Posted by dinonz

It's like the Christians vs Gays. Each side has some strange notion that if they keep making their point, the other side will agree and change. They won't

We all know which side drives MT

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by dinonz

It's like the Christians vs Gays. Each side has some strange notion that if they keep making their point, the other side will agree and change. They won't

I don't want or expect to change anyone's mind but some of the info posted in these threads is simply erroneous. What these threads sometimes reveal is that not only are there those who don't understand MT driving techniques there are also those who don't appear to understand the operation of a modern AT or DCT.

The ZF 8 Speed and the DCT are as far removed (and probably farther removed) from the two speed GM Powergilde and Ford Fordomatic dual range ATs of 50 years ago as a modern fully syncromesh, hill holding, auto rev matching MT is from the three on the tree with no synchomesh in 1st MTs of the same era.

[KevinM]

So...when the manuals are truly dead and gone on the M3/4, what do you think we'll use to convince other forum members that our choices are better than theirs?

a) AWD vs. RWD (if AWD is offered as an option)
b) 19" vs. 20" wheels
c) Hybrid M cars vs. traditional (assuming both are offered on the same M car)
d) My color is better than your color

If a and c are not available on the same car, it's going to get pretty dull around here...

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I don't want or expect to change anyone's mind but some of the info posted in these threads is simply erroneous. What these threads sometimes reveal is that not only are there those who don't understand MT driving techniques there are also those who don't appear to understand the operation of a modern AT or DCT.

The ZF 8 Speed and the DCT are as far removed (and probably farther removed) from the two speed GM Powergilde and Ford Fordomatic dual range ATs of 50 years ago as a modern fully syncromesh, hill holding, auto rev matching MT is from the three on the tree with no synchomesh in 1st MTs of the same era.

Actually, I would probably prefer a 2 speed powerglide

Here is what I HATE about automatics, especially in high torque cars like the M3 - they have a tendency to change down when they don't need to. Sometimes on a highway you just want to squeeze the throttle and use the torque to gradually gain speed - but many autos once you squeeze slightly too much, they chop down a gear or two, and I hate that. 6MT, I can guarantee it won't change down no matter how much throttle I apply...

And when I test drove the M4 with DCT, it did the same thing. In 7th I applied a little (maybe 10% gas) and it changed down when I felt it didn't need to. I hate that with a passion. First world problems I know.

Yes - I could drive in manual and the DCT wouldn't do that. But if I'm going to drive in manual 100% of the time, I'm going to drive in *real* manual 100% of the time, and get a manual gearbox.

Maybe just maybe the DCT would "learn" my driving over time, but I doubt it. To me, unless I give it 50% or more throttle, don't change down. Just pull away. If only they would, I might consider a DCT. But as they are now, they "behave the same as an auto" in the one area I hate the most about autos...

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by pheerlx

We all know which side drives MT

Sure do

[bmrwrld]

Yes the DCT is great but there is no feeling in the world like the raw power in your hands and feet. Regardless of the type of car I will always have a stick.

[WWM3]

The 6MT option is one big reason why many enthusiasts prefer a BMW. No matter your preference, it's disappointing to read an enthusiast magazine state that this car is better without the manual when it is the only car in its class that continues to offer one. A forceful argument for the continued availability of a 6MT would help those who want to save the manual IMO.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by dinonz

It's like the Christians vs Gays. Each side has some strange notion that if they keep making their point, the other side will agree and change. They won't

Is this your way of telling us something?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by (((myzmak)))

- but I prefer the throttle control of a manual;
- with DCT it is too easy to treat throttle as on/off switch - manual forces you to modulate that better.

That, you'll have to explain to me ???

Originally Posted by (((myzmak)))

- ever notice how 99% of the people who have complained about traction issues have been driving DCT?

That is more a question of gearing. 1st gear on the DCT is so crazy short that it is impossible to put the power down. Which means throttle modulation is evem more important with DCT. I've ranted about this more than once. It is the result of cost savings on BMW's part by giving us a "hand-me-down" transmission from the M5/6.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Actually, I would probably prefer a 2 speed powerglide

Here is what I HATE about automatics, especially in high torque cars like the M3 - they have a tendency to change down when they don't need to. Sometimes on a highway you just want to squeeze the throttle and use the torque to gradually gain speed - but many autos once you squeeze slightly too much, they chop down a gear or two, and I hate that. 6MT, I can guarantee it won't change down no matter how much throttle I apply...

And when I test drove the M4 with DCT, it did the same thing. In 7th I applied a little (maybe 10% gas) and it changed down when I felt it didn't need to. I hate that with a passion. First world problems I know.

Yes - I could drive in manual and the DCT wouldn't do that. But if I'm going to drive in manual 100% of the time, I'm going to drive in *real* manual 100% of the time, and get a manual gearbox.

Maybe just maybe the DCT would "learn" my driving over time, but I doubt it. To me, unless I give it 50% or more throttle, don't change down. Just pull away. If only they would, I might consider a DCT. But as they are now, they "behave the same as an auto" in the one area I hate the most about autos...

You are just making circular arguments to justify your point.

You enjoy traditional manuals. I fully respect that. It is an emotional choice.

But the argument made in this post does not make sense...

[MFore]

Originally Posted by (((myzmak)))

FAKE NEWS!

To repeat for the millionth time:

- I have no doubt the DCT is able to work very well with the engine;
- but I prefer the throttle control of a manual;
- ever notice how 99% of the people who have complained about traction issues have been driving DCT?
- with DCT it is too easy to treat throttle as on/off switch - manual forces you to modulate that better.

Plus manuals are cool and chicks love 'em.

Wait, if you have not had traction control issues with a manual you are doing something wrong. Tach it up past 6grand slam it into second and mash the gas. You Will have a traction issue. Wait. Maybe I’m doing something wrong?
Still waiting on validation of the “chicks dig it “ part.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Because they think, "Now there's a guy who's used to taking care of himself."

....as opposed to a dude who needs someone else to take care of his needs? yeah, i think chicks would prefer a guy who can take care of his own bidniss (ifyouknowwhati'msayin'...... )

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That, you'll have to explain to me ???

That is more a question of gearing. 1st gear on the DCT is so crazy short that it is impossible to put the power down. Which means throttle modulation is evem more important with DCT. I've ranted about this more than once. It is the result of cost savings on BMW's part by giving us a "hand-me-down" transmission from the M5/6.

yeah, so my point is not from a point of perfect driving technique or track mastery or anything like that, more just about spirited daily driving.

From my 100% unscientific poll based on random threads that i happened to read on here (so you know this is statistically sound as all fuck), a lot of the 'it breaks traction too easily' complaints tend to come from guys who just mash the pedal down hard when doing their stop light hero racing and expect the car to grip like 'no problem, mon' (the ole' on-off switch)

with a manual, while i appreciate you can do that, as MFore notes here

Originally Posted by MFore

Wait, if you have not had traction control issues with a manual you are doing something wrong. Tach it up past 6grand slam it into second and mash the gas. You Will have a traction issue. Wait. Maybe I’m doing something wrong?
Still waiting on validation of the “chicks dig it “ part.

....the fact is, to get the same 'full throttle instantly' requires coordination with the left foot. And, sure, some guy who cares more about how to describe this will inevitably say 'but doesn't he mean clutch control?'

Originally Posted by BMWM5NYC

I think they mean "clutch modulation/control" Lol

...yeah, like that...

but all i'm saying is that the act of applying throttle from a standing start in a manual just requires more coordination, and thus a little more deliberation rather than 'push right toes to floor'. That act of coordination will, most times, result in a bit more modulation - the few milliseconds most of us take to depress and release clutch in coordination with depressing throttle will result in a slight modulation of putting down the throttle and result in fewer traction issues.

can we just time it and mash it? sure. But to do that in an MT one has to try harder to mash it and break traction - it is easier and requires less effort in a DCT

so, with an MT most of us dont most mash it most of the time.

so, most of the time, MT drivers don't hit the traction issues that DCT drivers can hit in daily driving.

that's it.

not saying MT is better or worse (know what i prefer, but YMMV).

~myz out


(oh, yeah, plus chicks dig the manual. if you havent realized that, you must be doing something or most things wrong )

[captainaudio]

Some quotes from the late racer and journalist Denise McCluggage that seem appropriate.

"Drive what you're in"

"If what you are doing isn't working try something else"

"If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude."

"Change is the only constant. Hanging on is the only sin."

[Biorin]

Originally Posted by (((myzmak)))

....as opposed to a dude who needs someone else to take care of his needs? yeah, i think chicks would prefer a guy who can take care of his own bidniss (ifyouknowwhati'msayin'...... )



yeah, so my point is not from a point of perfect driving technique or track mastery or anything like that, more just about spirited daily driving.

From my 100% unscientific poll based on random threads that i happened to read on here (so you know this is statistically sound as all fuck), a lot of the 'it breaks traction too easily' complaints tend to come from guys who just mash the pedal down hard when doing their stop light hero racing and expect the car to grip like 'no problem, mon' (the ole' on-off switch)

with a manual, while i appreciate you can do that, as MFore notes here



....the fact is, to get the same 'full throttle instantly' requires coordination with the left foot. And, sure, some guy who cares more about how to describe this will inevitably say 'but doesn't he mean clutch control?'



...yeah, like that...

but all i'm saying is that the act of applying throttle from a standing start in a manual just requires more coordination, and thus a little more deliberation rather than 'push right toes to floor'. That act of coordination will, most times, result in a bit more modulation - the few milliseconds most of us take to depress and release clutch in coordination with depressing throttle will result in a slight modulation of putting down the throttle and result in fewer traction issues.

can we just time it and mash it? sure. But to do that in an MT one has to try harder to mash it and break traction - it is easier and requires less effort in a DCT

so, with an MT most of us dont most mash it most of the time.

so, most of the time, MT drivers don't hit the traction issues that DCT drivers can hit in daily driving.

that's it.

not saying MT is better or worse (know what i prefer, but YMMV).

~myz out


(oh, yeah, plus chicks did the manual. if you havent realized that, you must be doing something or most things wrong )

Am chick. Have the manual. Can confirm

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You are just making circular arguments to justify your point.

You enjoy traditional manuals. I fully respect that. It is an emotional choice.

But the argument made in this post does not make sense...

No - I'm not.

And yes - it makes perfect sense to me. Making sense to you isn't my primary concern.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

No - I'm not.

You say there is no point in driving DCT in manual mode and you don't like how it behaves in automatic mode. This is a circular argument for self justification.

Like I said, I perfectly understand why people chose a traditional manual. And I see nothing wrong with that. However, people who seek to ridicule progress coming with the evolution of automatics (be it DCT or planetary autos), I don't get. Since this debate is emotional, there is no amount of rational that will be able to sway the outcome.

Originally Posted by dinonz

And yes - it makes perfect sense to me. Making sense to you isn't my primary concern.

Sure, if you seek self justification, it does.