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      05-19-2011, 03:24 PM   #45
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BMW wouldn't be committing any bigger crime by going for bi-turbo V6 engine, more than they have already sinned with the turbos for their M cars. BMW M cars were known as high revving NA I6, V8 and V10 engines with supreme agility and control. Now they've chosen to use turbos in their M cars? BMW also used to be known for manual transmissions in their M cars. But now they use M-DCT. Now they even have X5/X6 M's but no Z4 M.....

I think everyone should get ready for a bi-turbo V6 in the F3x M3. It might just be another masterpiece engine from the M division. Look at the bright side - it would definitely be a unique BMW engine.
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      05-19-2011, 03:28 PM   #46
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Quote:
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S65 V8 Biturbo Engine - I WANT
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      05-19-2011, 03:29 PM   #47
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1 or 3 please
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      05-19-2011, 03:32 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flipmeraz View Post
X3 M
+10 We don't need anymore downward expansion of the M brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Here's my take (whether you want it or not)



Believability: 10%

Why? We already have two turbo V8s - the S63 and N63 - so I don't how it will make a good business case to build yet another one.



Believability: 70%

Why? An "S55" would follow on logically just like the N63->S63 evolution. And I personally think 160hp/L will be very feasibly for M division. Granted, there is still a discrepancy as far as the N55 vs. the N54 forming the basis. When it comes down to it, the primary difference is turbo setup and Valvetronic. But those two will be weighed independently by M either way.



Believeability factor: 25%

Why? While this would make a lot more sense than the turbo'd S65 would, I still don't think BMW will go through with it. They need to play up the greener image that people have of engines with lower cylinder count. Make no mistake, they are going to do all they can to tie the Efficient Dynamics story into the M3 as tightly as possible.



Believability factor: < 1%

Why? I just don't think it makes any sense. As I see it, fitment issues with the V8 as far as an X3 M or Z4 M are due to the turbos, intercoolers, plumbing etc, most likely. If you are going to have to move them no matter what the cylinder count, then you could just as easily relocate them for the V8, and not spend all the money developing a V6 block, crank, cams, heads, not to mention testing all that. And for less displacement, no need to lose cylinders - just destroke/debore the V8.
Nice write up. I'm also skeptical about S65 bi turbo, though that sounds

No to the V6 for sure. I'm not a fan of the N54/N55 either.

And where did all the "NA only" guys go?? now you're all drooling over turbos? I thought it was the S65 or die? I don't mind having a turbo, as throttle response has vastly improved over older turbos, but decreasing redline??
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      05-19-2011, 03:35 PM   #49
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Quote:
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All those options sound to me. It would not surprise me if they went to a v6. Why worry about heritage when all you care about is money?
They seem to be getting back on track. Changing their slogan back to The Ultimate Driving Machine, and now considering keeping the S65? Looks like the bitchin' and groaning got through to BMW.
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      05-19-2011, 03:38 PM   #50
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If they keep the S65, it's a no-brainer.
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      05-19-2011, 03:50 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle S65B40 View Post
+10 We don't need anymore downward expansion of the M brand.



Nice write up. I'm also skeptical about S65 bi turbo, though that sounds

No to the V6 for sure. I'm not a fan of the N54/N55 either.

And where did all the "NA only" guys go?? now you're all drooling over turbos? I thought it was the S65 or die? I don't mind having a turbo, as throttle response has vastly improved over older turbos, but decreasing redline??
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      05-19-2011, 03:57 PM   #52
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S65 V8 Biturbo!!!
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      05-19-2011, 03:59 PM   #53
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about the X3 M, I personally like the idea of all BMW cars having an M version - gives even the SUV crowd something to shoot for.

I have always wanted an M7 in the lineup.

if you look at the reviews for X5M and X6M they are all raves, so why not?
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      05-19-2011, 04:16 PM   #54
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I think it is important that the ///M division stated they did not want to stick to dogmas. If they stuck to dogmas, there wouldn't be the same level of innovation that we have today. As a result of this, I am almost sick of hearing about "heritage".

Look at the past with the M3. The e30 had an I4. The e36 and e46 both had I6 engines. The e92 has a v8. If they were sticking to dogmas, we would never of had the s65 that we love! Logically the e92 would have an I6.

So this may be a good thing. Right now we are complaining about losing the v8, however the next engine might be better. If we were always scared to innovate with something disruptive, we would never of had the s65 engine that we love today placed in the M3.

Maybe we do not like the sound of a turbo v6 because as the consumer, we do not know what we really want. If BMW always listened to exactly what we had to say, there would be no creative destruction. The consumer would never want the "next big thing" because as the consumer, they do not know what the next big thing is. In order to innovate and create a better ///M car all around, BMW may have to use something like a turbo v6 in an M car, even though some may say it is sacrilegious.
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      05-19-2011, 04:22 PM   #55
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I'm loving the idea of a bi-turbo S65, but why throw two turbos on when the horsepower goal is 450-475hp? If they are only pushing a ~40hp boost with the turbos, the tuning potential would be insane with a simple remap.

If they can get the S65's consumption down to V6/I6 levels, I'm sure everyone would like to see it return in 2014.
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      05-19-2011, 04:23 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MazdaFan View Post
If mitsu can get 300hp from 2.0 turbo, BMW should be able to extract 400+ from N54. I like the idea of a lighter 6-cylinder car. The M3 engine is also light, the M5 engine is too heavy for this applicaiton.

What AMG does is irrelevant, M3 and any AMG car are in a different segment.
LULz wut?

C63 AMG & M3 are direct competitors.
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      05-19-2011, 04:35 PM   #57
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I'm jealous. I should have waited. Damn
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      05-19-2011, 04:39 PM   #58
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I like the idea of the bi turbo v6. (big Nissan fan here)
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      05-19-2011, 04:41 PM   #59
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I6 3.4 liter TT pls
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      05-19-2011, 04:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MazdaFan View Post
If mitsu can get 300hp from 2.0 turbo, BMW should be able to extract 400+ from N54. I like the idea of a lighter 6-cylinder car. The M3 engine is also light, the M5 engine is too heavy for this applicaiton.

What AMG does is irrelevant, M3 and any AMG car are in a different segment.
Please pass whatever you are smoking to me. I want to take a hit.
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      05-19-2011, 04:53 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
They seem to be getting back on track. Changing their slogan back to The Ultimate Driving Machine, and now considering keeping the S65? Looks like the bitchin' and groaning got through to BMW.
I respectfully disagree. With weight increases and turbos, M no longer stands for motorsport.
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      05-19-2011, 04:54 PM   #62
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It'll be either the an N55 variant or the v6 probably. BMW has already committed to their efficient dynamics ploy. And since that's the case it's going to require cars to weigh less.

I'm actually betting on the v6 bi or tri turbo. Fan boys will cry then they'll drive it and thus the story continues... Just like the v8 haters 5 years ago.
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      05-19-2011, 04:55 PM   #63
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Quote:
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I6 3.4 liter TT pls
BMW likes each cylinder to be 0.5L

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG3356MT View Post
I like the idea of the bi turbo v6. (big Nissan fan here)
BMW has a LONG history of I6 engines. A V6 is not acceptable to BMW people.
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      05-19-2011, 04:58 PM   #64
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Quote:
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I6 3.4 liter TT pls
That's what I'm thinking, some thing larger than 3.0l.
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      05-19-2011, 05:01 PM   #65
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Quote:
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BMW likes each cylinder to be 0.5L



BMW has a LONG history of I6 engines. A V6 is not acceptable to BMW people.

not the 4.4 V8 TT? but 3.5 I6 would even be better!
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      05-19-2011, 05:06 PM   #66
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Nice thread South!

mkoesel
You could beleave it or not ... the most logical engine decision is the 3.3ltr. V6 derivate of the S63 ... only because of its mayor advantages ... its the lightest, shortest and most compact engine alternative ... together with some cost effective lightweight body panel its the best way to make the F3x M3 the far best sports car in its class.

Second best engine decision was an modified S65 ... because this engine was one of the best (if not the best) the M-GmbH has developed ever. The engine has many fans in the M-GmbH and was an pure M baby. The engine was also light, very robust and also compact for an V8.

Only third for the from all 335i fans favored N54/55 (S54/55) ... because its neither an compact fit nor its possible to bring this engine to 450+PS without more displacement and make the engine stronger (increasing weight) ... but the main reason is that the M-GmbH just making an chance in an more traditionel direction, this meen more unique engines and more lightweight issues ... and finding the perfect way between cost reduction and performence/"the spirit of M" ... and the N54/55 engine choice was one of the cost reduction over all times.

I think the S63 is simple too big to be an nice fit for an F3x ... look athe the manhart E92 and its ultra large hood to fit the engine ... and I think the F3x would have an overall flatter front end ... so how this engine should fit in an proper way?

advevo
... the 1M was an nice little car and as good as the M3 ... but wait for the M3 EVO (and the 2012 M3CSL?), this would bring the "old" E9x M3 over all of his compeditors again .. also over the 1M.
The really Supertrackcar would be the F2x 1M with real lightweight parts and an light and ultra compact R4 BiTurbo engine with 300+HP.

Greet Uli_HH
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