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      05-21-2011, 03:42 PM   #177
antzcrashing
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Originally Posted by harry sanghera View Post
Now you have confused me.



Rumormill: Is BMW bound to bolt a V6 under the hood of the next M3?

by Jeff Glucker (RSS feed) on May 20th 2011 at 1:01PM


BMW M3 Competition Package – Click above for high-res image gallery

If you're an unapologetic BMW fanboy, the next few words might sting. BMW may be considering a V6 for the next generation BMW M3. No, we didn't mean to type I6 – we're talking about three on one side and three on the other.

According to M3post.com, BMW is likely to go in one of four directions. First up is the suggestion that BMW will take the M3's current S65 V8 and add a pair of turbochargers to it. Now, we're all in favor of adding forced-induction to this engine but this would have the M3 treading heavily on F10 M5 ground.

Another rumor pegs BMW as stuffing either a modified (read: boosted) version of the N54 turbocharged inline-six or a tweaked (read: detuned) version of the F10 M5's twin-turbo V8 S63 motor. The most interesting rumor, however, is that BMW may look into a turbocharged V6 engine. Is BMW HQ ready to hurt the fanboy feelings of folks in love with straight-six engines? If it means a better M3, then anything is possible.


Come on? Yay! it's a party
What new info does this provide? It is only a copy of the original post. There is no guarantee, just reiteration.

Even if it is from a reputable BMW source, there are only suggestions of possibility, words like "may be considering", "may look into"....

There is no "Confirmation"
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      05-21-2011, 03:54 PM   #178
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BMW M3 F32 coming with a Turbo 3.3l V6

I do not say this as a fact, but I am very sure of this.

Before starting, leave the 1M aside. It came very late, that is why it can be said to be better than an M3, but remember two other M3 are coming: the M3 EVO E90 and the M3 CSL E92. These will be alot faster and lighter also. We can talk about this again when and if there comes a 1M CSL.
To finish about this 1M vs. M3, they are very close because one has a NA 4.0l V8 and the other has a FI 3.0l I6, this is called downsizing. The next M2 F22 vs. M3 F32 fight will be very different, one will have two cylinders less and will be lighter and thus more fun, but the other will be faster in all cases: just look at 911 vs Cayman: The Cayman is fun, but the 911 is just unbeatable. And to put a 911 engine into a Cayman, or an M3 engine into an M2 will just never be done. By the way the next Cayman get a FI Flat4 just as the M2 F22 get a FI Inline4. And yes the M2 F22 will be very light.

All this to say that the M3 was the benchmark, and maybe still is, of the most affordable true sportscar, or least the closest thing to a sportscar yet being practical and drivable on daily use. However the demand for more comfort increased its wieght, even the M3 E46 was not that light (1570 kg [DIN]), and thus worsend its performance.
But remember on thing: the M3 has alot of rivals now, as all other brands try to dethrone it, and maybe without your know the M3 is dethroned by the GT-R. Probably it is less fun to drive, but wheather you want is or not, is is alot faster, even a supercharged M3 E9X does not reach it.
That is why BMW M will focus on the thing with two different cars: the M2 F22 for "fun", and the M3 F32 for high performance.

And this is why the M3 F32 will get a 90 3.3l Twin- or Tripple Turbo V6. Just remember the last Nissan Skyline R34 had an I6, and now it went over to V6. Remember the M3 E46 was a car of a perfect middle, not to small, not to big, no I4, but also no V8, not to heavy (compared to RS4 and C AMG), but enough comfortable. With the groth of cars in general, this is now divided into to extremeties and will continue so with the 2 Series/M2 F22 and 3 Series/M3 F32.

Now the question is how to make the M3 F32 better than ever? And there is only one onswer: LIGHTER. The M3 has everything: power, balance, comfort, beauty, style, identity and also wieght, that would be nice to get reed off.
That is why a V6 is the best solution. Do you remember the first rumours of M3 V6 one year ago or more? This was for nothing, it was to prepare you, because BMW knew, they would not have any choice, and this is what they when build the N63: the knew it would take place in a 5 Series and they knew the would come an M5, and they also knew after that would come an M3.
An I6 is better than a V6, but not in the case of the M3 F32. The V6 will be the lightest engine choice and also the most compact. This will allow to move the engine even more back and have an even better balance. The V6 base is a better engine than the I6 base to keep the high revs, and due to shorter stroke. BMW M does have alot of experience in building turbo engines here one example:




Exhibit: BMW Formula 1 racing engine M12/13
Production dates: 1981 - 1985
Engine: inline, turbocharged
Cylinders: 4
Displacement: 1,499 cc
Bore x stroke: 89.2 x 60 mm
Torque: 450 Nm at 8,500 rpm
Power output: 463 - 581 kW at 11,000 rpm (depending on boost pressure)




I believe and have confidence they will put all this into practise. The M3's enemy number one is the GT-R.

These are the approximate (very positive) figures:

M2 F22
2.0l Twin-Turbo I4
340 PS
450 Nm
7.600 RPM Redline
1300 kg [DIN]

M3 F32
3.3l Tripple-Turbo V6 90
480 PS
550 Nm
8.000 RPM Redline
1500 kg [DIN]



Now wait and see!
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      05-21-2011, 04:17 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
I do not say this as a fact, but I am very sure of this.

Before starting, leave the 1M aside. It came very late, that is why it can be said to be better than an M3, but remember two other M3 are coming: the M3 EVO E90 and the M3 CSL E92. These will be alot faster and lighter also. We can talk about this again when and if there comes a 1M CSL.
To finish about this 1M vs. M3, they are very close because one has a NA 4.0l V8 and the other has a FI 3.0l I6, this is called downsizing. The next M2 F22 vs. M3 F32 fight will be very different, one will have two cylinders less and will be lighter and thus more fun, but the other will be faster in all cases: just look at 911 vs Cayman: The Cayman is fun, but the 911 is just unbeatable. And to put a 911 engine into a Cayman, or an M3 engine into an M2 will just never be done. By the way the next Cayman get a FI Flat4 just as the M2 F22 get a FI Inline4. And yes the M2 F22 will be very light.

All this to say that the M3 was the benchmark, and maybe still is, of the most affordable true sportscar, or least the closest thing to a sportscar yet being practical and drivable on daily use. However the demand for more comfort increased its wieght, even the M3 E46 was not that light (1570 kg [DIN]), and thus worsend its performance.
But remember on thing: the M3 has alot of rivals now, as all other brands try to dethrone it, and maybe without your know the M3 is dethroned by the GT-R. Probably it is less fun to drive, but wheather you want is or not, is is alot faster, even a supercharged M3 E9X does not reach it.
That is why BMW M will focus on the thing with two different cars: the M2 F22 for "fun", and the M3 F32 for high performance.

And this is why the M3 F32 will get a 90 3.3l Twin- or Tripple Turbo V6. Just remember the last Nissan Skyline R34 had an I6, and now it went over to V6. Remember the M3 E46 was a car of a perfect middle, not to small, not to big, no I4, but also no V8, not to heavy (compared to RS4 and C AMG), but enough comfortable. With the groth of cars in general, this is now divided into to extremeties and will continue so with the 2 Series/M2 F22 and 3 Series/M3 F32.

Now the question is how to make the M3 F32 better than ever? And there is only one onswer: LIGHTER. The M3 has everything: power, balance, comfort, beauty, style, identity and also wieght, that would be nice to get reed off.
That is why a V6 is the best solution. Do you remember the first rumours of M3 V6 one year ago or more? This was for nothing, it was to prepare you, because BMW knew, they would not have any choice, and this is what they when build the N63: the knew it would take place in a 5 Series and they knew the would come an M5, and they also knew after that would come an M3.
An I6 is better than a V6, but not in the case of the M3 F32. The V6 will be the lightest engine choice and also the most compact. This will allow to move the engine even more back and have an even better balance. The V6 base is a better engine than the I6 base to keep the high revs, and due to shorter stroke. BMW M does have alot of experience in building turbo engines here one example:




Exhibit: BMW Formula 1 racing engine M12/13
Production dates: 1981 - 1985
Engine: inline, turbocharged
Cylinders: 4
Displacement: 1,499 cc
Bore x stroke: 89.2 x 60 mm
Torque: 450 Nm at 8,500 rpm
Power output: 463 - 581 kW at 11,000 rpm (depending on boost pressure)




I believe and have confidence they will put all this into practise. The M3's enemy number one is the GT-R.

These are the approximate (very positive) figures:

M2 F22
2.0l Twin-Turbo I4
340 PS
450 Nm
7.600 RPM Redline
1300 kg [DIN]

M3 F32
3.3l Tripple-Turbo V6 90
480 PS
550 Nm
8.000 RPM Redline
1500 kg [DIN]



Now wait and see!
I disagree that GTR and M3 compete, hell the GTR starts at 90K!

I would agree that BMW would love to out perform the GTR with the M3 and the V6 is a way to do that if coupled with a lightweight body, but GTR and M3 are in totally different buyers leagues.

I would add that I think a V6 TT is highly likely the next M3 engine, but the next 1M (or M2) will not be just a for fun car...
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      05-21-2011, 04:42 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
What new info does this provide? It is only a copy of the original post. There is no guarantee, just reiteration.

Even if it is from a reputable BMW source, there are only suggestions of possibility, words like "may be considering", "may look into"....

There is no "Confirmation"
Antzcrashing is so confused he thinks he's a suitable moderator
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      05-21-2011, 05:14 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
I do not say this as a fact, but I am very sure of this.

Before starting, leave the 1M aside. It came very late, that is why it can be said to be better than an M3, but remember two other M3 are coming: the M3 EVO E90 and the M3 CSL E92. These will be alot faster and lighter also. We can talk about this again when and if there comes a 1M CSL.
To finish about this 1M vs. M3, they are very close because one has a NA 4.0l V8 and the other has a FI 3.0l I6, this is called downsizing. The next M2 F22 vs. M3 F32 fight will be very different, one will have two cylinders less and will be lighter and thus more fun, but the other will be faster in all cases: just look at 911 vs Cayman: The Cayman is fun, but the 911 is just unbeatable. And to put a 911 engine into a Cayman, or an M3 engine into an M2 will just never be done. By the way the next Cayman get a FI Flat4 just as the M2 F22 get a FI Inline4. And yes the M2 F22 will be very light.

All this to say that the M3 was the benchmark, and maybe still is, of the most affordable true sportscar, or least the closest thing to a sportscar yet being practical and drivable on daily use. However the demand for more comfort increased its wieght, even the M3 E46 was not that light (1570 kg [DIN]), and thus worsend its performance.
But remember on thing: the M3 has alot of rivals now, as all other brands try to dethrone it, and maybe without your know the M3 is dethroned by the GT-R. Probably it is less fun to drive, but wheather you want is or not, is is alot faster, even a supercharged M3 E9X does not reach it.
That is why BMW M will focus on the thing with two different cars: the M2 F22 for "fun", and the M3 F32 for high performance.

And this is why the M3 F32 will get a 90 3.3l Twin- or Tripple Turbo V6. Just remember the last Nissan Skyline R34 had an I6, and now it went over to V6. Remember the M3 E46 was a car of a perfect middle, not to small, not to big, no I4, but also no V8, not to heavy (compared to RS4 and C AMG), but enough comfortable. With the groth of cars in general, this is now divided into to extremeties and will continue so with the 2 Series/M2 F22 and 3 Series/M3 F32.

Now the question is how to make the M3 F32 better than ever? And there is only one onswer: LIGHTER. The M3 has everything: power, balance, comfort, beauty, style, identity and also wieght, that would be nice to get reed off.
That is why a V6 is the best solution. Do you remember the first rumours of M3 V6 one year ago or more? This was for nothing, it was to prepare you, because BMW knew, they would not have any choice, and this is what they when build the N63: the knew it would take place in a 5 Series and they knew the would come an M5, and they also knew after that would come an M3.
An I6 is better than a V6, but not in the case of the M3 F32. The V6 will be the lightest engine choice and also the most compact. This will allow to move the engine even more back and have an even better balance. The V6 base is a better engine than the I6 base to keep the high revs, and due to shorter stroke. BMW M does have alot of experience in building turbo engines here one example:




Exhibit: BMW Formula 1 racing engine M12/13
Production dates: 1981 - 1985
Engine: inline, turbocharged
Cylinders: 4
Displacement: 1,499 cc
Bore x stroke: 89.2 x 60 mm
Torque: 450 Nm at 8,500 rpm
Power output: 463 - 581 kW at 11,000 rpm (depending on boost pressure)




I believe and have confidence they will put all this into practise. The M3's enemy number one is the GT-R.

These are the approximate (very positive) figures:

M2 F22
2.0l Twin-Turbo I4
340 PS
450 Nm
7.600 RPM Redline
1300 kg [DIN]

M3 F32
3.3l Tripple-Turbo V6 90
480 PS
550 Nm
8.000 RPM Redline
1500 kg [DIN]



Now wait and see!
wow, I love all this BS floating around, and I'll leave it just at that. No one knows yet. Lets just wait and see what the M division comes up with instead up talking out of our ass.
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      05-21-2011, 05:22 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyrat View Post
I disagree that GTR and M3 compete, hell the GTR starts at 90K!

I would agree that BMW would love to out perform the GTR with the M3 and the V6 is a way to do that if coupled with a lightweight body, but GTR and M3 are in totally different buyers leagues.
Agree here. Some cross shop the GT-R and the M3 but the GT-Rs number one and two competitors (number one by Nissans own claims - "WE WILL BEAT PORSCHE") are the 911 TT and Z06. All essentially 2 seaters, and all in a entire bracket about the M3 in terms of outright performance.

Also: Levi: Good post ^ but I think you, just like the rest of us have nothing but speculation to support your guess. As far as performance goes there is nothing inherently better about a V6. Again the new 3er which will be the basis for the M3, has plenty of room for any engine BMW will use, turbo I4 in the regular 3er, I6 or V6.

I don't see the relevance of all of the discussion about Skylines, E46 M3 and M2...

I strongly believe that the factors BMW are trying to balance are simply cost vs. perceived innovation. Ultimately the cheaper engine will most likely be the one that goes in. I know this does not sit well with us M enthusiasts, but I'm pretty sure this will be the most important factor.

Also do you have any empirical evidence that for a given displacement a V6 is lighter than an I6? I have some evidence. The BMW 3.0l N54 I6 TT (aluminum block of course) weighs in at 429 lb. The 3.5l V6 Ford Ecoboost (also aluminum block/heads, TT) weighs in at 417 lb. I know not entirely apples to apples but the Ecoboost is a pretty nice engine, DI, TT, etc. Maybe if it was only a 3.0l it would weigh in the 400lb range. Do you think BMW will choose a V configuration over an I configuration just to save 10-30 lb? Maybe they will, maybe they can make a sub 400 lb 3.3l V6. Either way the weight of the new M3, will be more dependent on base 3er weight than whatever engine they choose and we already know the new car is about the same size as the existing car but wider and with a longer wheelbase. This is why I am watching the rumor mill on the new 3er so heavily!
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      05-21-2011, 05:28 PM   #183
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I think Levi will turn out to be right along with the others who have suggested the V6. I'm okay with that solution if it turns out to be fun to drive and if the redline is 8000+.

Let's face it. If this car get previewed by the car mags to wide acclaim we are all going to want to test drive it. And all of us will give it strong consideration in the end.

Ultimately it is all about the pleasure of driving. If BMW delivers then I'm good.
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      05-21-2011, 05:46 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yes indeed they may have cleverly thought out the "trimming" operation and what balancing requirements might be required for a V6 derived from this V8. Although you can get by with no balancing on a 60 V6 you can't really on a 90 V6 (at least in a road car). And of course by "balancing" I mean dedicated balancing, not that on the crankshaft itself which every car has. Also a 60 V6 would require either massive modifications or an entirely different production line compared to the one making a 90 V8. Thus I highly doubt a 60 V6.
There is no need for dedicated balancing on a 90 degree V6. You can do that with standard counterweights.

What you lose is even firing intervals. Instead of a "standard" 120 degree firing interval, you get 90 - 150, 90 -150, 90 - 150. This makes for a buzzy and somewhat rough-running engine, which BMW simply wouldn't put up with.

The solution is to split the crank throws, which is what GM pioneered in 1977 (I think), resulting in an even-firing design of their 3.8 liter 90 degree V6. They sold this even-fire engine in various states of tune for at least a couple of decades, including those legendary Buick Grand National engines which ruled drag strips from the mid eighties through (roughly) the mid nineties.

One implication of splitting the crank throws was that the throws themselves would lose some strength because you'd end up with an effectively reduced diameter "at the split". A friend of mine ran his GN for years at the drag strip however, eventually running low 11s, with a best of 11.17 at around 120 mph. One thing he liked to brag about was that he had never even removed the valve covers to get those kinds of times and speeds.

He finally gave in and had the heads done, resulting in an instant 10.56 @ 124 mph, with the engine shutting down just before the traps. Turned out his chip tuner had forgotten to remove the from-the-factory 124 mph speed limiter. With that taken care of, the car would trap in the 125-126 mph range.

He sold the car with over 100K on the clock and hundreds and hundreds of drag strip passes, and never had a problem with that engine. His experience was more or less duplicated by hundreds of other GN owners, demonstrating just how bulletproof that engine was, in spite of the split crank throws.

So BMW could easily build a reliable split-crank 90 degree V6.

Would they, though? Don't think so. I'd be betting on a straight six with something innovative in turbocharging.

Bruce
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      05-21-2011, 10:02 PM   #185
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I am liking the S65 more fuel efficient twin turbo option.
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      05-21-2011, 10:20 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
There is no need for dedicated balancing on a 90 degree V6. You can do that with standard counterweights.

...

So BMW could easily build a reliable split-crank 90 degree V6.

Would they, though? Don't think so. I'd be betting on a straight six with something innovative in turbocharging.
Perhaps better stated I would virtually guarantee BMW won't/wouldn't make a 90 V6 without dedicated balancing. Sure they could, but they wouldn't. They value smoothness and balance in their engines way too much to do so as evidenced by their obsession with the I6.

Either way I am leaning in the I6 direction for the new M3 as well. Definitely with DI and some innovation in the turbo charging. Would be great to see a new from the ground up engine but doubt that as well.
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      05-22-2011, 04:48 AM   #187
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Hood vent intake is not available on the passenger side of the E92 in NA

Looks like the F3X M3 is going to party

May have two functional hood vents if BMW used 3D computer modelling manipulating Direct Injection and an Integrated exhaust


The V6 below has DI.

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      05-22-2011, 02:13 PM   #188
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I kinda agree with @wallstreet... We know BMW is pushing for lowering costs, and I'd assume chopping the V8 to V6 is very tempting (for them). S65 is made to be high revving engine, so I don't think it will be all that great for turbo application. Also, M5 has TT V8, M3 cannot have V8. Either I6, or V6. If they choose to go I6, then I'd assume they'll use their standard 3 liter I6, and go from there.

Same for weight. F3x will no be light. It will be lighter than competition. Just like E9x.
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      05-22-2011, 02:24 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
I find this thread really interesting in many respects

1.I find it amusing how everyone disgusted by the sounds of TT M3 is all about an S65TT. If you are going to go TT, the s65 loses its benefits as a great engine. Nothing other than a good memory attached to to turbos would this thing offer. I would rather see them build an engine dedicated and formulated for turbos from the beginning. You guys are really getting caught up in nostalgia by wishing a S65TT-which by the way has no chance of happening anyway. One main reason is bmw is going to be unable to reverse flow turbo in the middle of the V and that is the major way they have addressed lag. It just cant happen in this engine.

2.The car will NOT be lighter. No bmw EVER has ever gone lighter in the subsequent generation. It just does not happen unfortunately.

3.Counter to knowing what is going to happen, I do wonder why ferrari can build a more efficient, higher revving 9k rpms V8 and sell it when their entire fleet is a bunch of inefficient engined cars, and bmw cannot do this for just one of their minority sales cars-the m3. They profit much more than ferrari as they sell 100 times more m3's than the ferrari 458 so money is plentiful.

4.You guys have to realize you cannot have anything longer than a 3.2l I6 (and that is pushing it.) The flex in a camshaft (until they make camless engines) is way to great in a engine, let alone a high performance aluminum engine to deal with this. You would have to spin it under 6500 to go any larger than 3.2. The R and D into making this also would be too much for too little utility

5.I am actually thrilled to say I am 99 percent sure its going to be a brand new TT (not tri turbo) V6 derived from the M5/6 engine. That would allow them to obtain exactly the right power at about 475hp (which is where the m3 will be), allow them to use reverse intake turbo design to address the lag/throttle response which m3 owners really look for, and allow the engine to fit into other smaller cars like the x/z cars. It also has room to be tweaked for their race cars in various series as plenty of room for tweaking with a OEM TTv6. Probably easily tweaked to 550hp in a heartbeat.

So in the end the m3 will be 3900 pounds, 475hp, TTV6 with 0-60 in 4s, quarter in 12 flat. 285's rear 265 front 19's.

And there it is folks
so your prediction is that M3 will forever increase weight and HP, purely because this is the history of 3 sequels? I surely hope not, because as nice as 475 HP sounds, 3900 lbs sounds awful. An M3 should be lighter.
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      05-22-2011, 02:36 PM   #190
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About the GT-R, you must know it is the fastest 4-seater car. It means it does beat the M3. Look to M3 vs. forum and what you see is always M3 vs. C AMG, RS4, RS5, R8 V8, IS-F, CTS-V, 911, GT-R.

I like I6 over V6, but in the case of the next M3 for me it doesn't look right. I think a higher redline is an imprtant thing in an M3, more than in an M5 or X6 M for instance. BMW M can not spend everything on building a new engine from scratch, so it will have to be based on something existant. Either N55 or S63. IMO the S63 is a better base if to consider a higher reving engine as it has shorter stroke than the N55.

As about weight we shall see, and I am very eager:
-the X3 F25 is 30kg than the X3 E83
-the M3 EVO Limited Edition E90 is said to weigh 1550 kg (DIN)
-the M3 CSL Concept E92 is said to be a preview of the next M3 F32
-the M5 F10 is said to be 60 kg lighter than the 550i F10!!!!!!

The answers will come very soon, also when the new 1 Series F20 will be revealed.

Last edited by Levi; 05-22-2011 at 02:45 PM.
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      05-22-2011, 04:04 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
About the GT-R, you must know it is the fastest 4-seater car. It means it does beat the M3. Look to M3 vs. forum and what you see is always M3 vs. C AMG, RS4, RS5, R8 V8, IS-F, CTS-V, 911, GT-R.
It is completely irrelevant what cars people compare on forums! What matters is what people cross-shop and actually seriously consider buying.

Of course the GTR beats the 4D M3, because it is in a totally different league and price bracket.
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      05-22-2011, 04:50 PM   #192
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Good post. Some comments

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Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
1.I find it amusing how everyone disgusted by the sounds of TT M3 is all about an S65TT. If you are going to go TT, the s65 loses its benefits as a great engine. Nothing other than a good memory attached to to turbos would this thing offer. I would rather see them build an engine dedicated and formulated for turbos from the beginning. You guys are really getting caught up in nostalgia by wishing a S65TT-which by the way has no chance of happening anyway. One main reason is bmw is going to be unable to reverse flow turbo in the middle of the V and that is the major way they have addressed lag. It just cant happen in this engine.
There are other ways to address lag such as variable vanes geometry. Not that I think that means a S65 TT is at all a possibility. It is not.

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Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
2.The car will NOT be lighter. No bmw EVER has ever gone lighter in the subsequent generation. It just does not happen unfortunately.
Although history is on your side here BMW is getting more serious as most manufacturers are about weight. I believe at some point the trend may be reversed. If not reversed then at least eventually the M2 will exceed the power to weight ratio of the current M3. I'm pretty sure there are new Audi models lighter than the prior equivalent models. It can be done. BMW just is not quite getting there.

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Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
3.Counter to knowing what is going to happen, I do wonder why ferrari can build a more efficient, higher revving 9k rpms V8 and sell it when their entire fleet is a bunch of inefficient engined cars, and bmw cannot do this for just one of their minority sales cars-the m3. They profit much more than ferrari as they sell 100 times more m3's than the ferrari 458 so money is plentiful.
I have posted extensively on this topic. There are two reasons and the debate really is which is more important.

1. Manufacturing costs. BMW is pushing hard to bring them down. Common engines and other component is a very good way to do this.
2. Promotion of their green image and working toward the day when fines will be much more significant.

In short there is no intrinsic reason BMW can't build an NA high revving engine just as good as the F430 and stuff it in the next M3. But as we all know they won't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
4.You guys have to realize you cannot have anything longer than a 3.2l I6 (and that is pushing it.) The flex in a camshaft (until they make camless engines) is way to great in a engine, let alone a high performance aluminum engine to deal with this. You would have to spin it under 6500 to go any larger than 3.2. The R and D into making this also would be too much for too little utility
The stroke can be used to increase displacement. You can also make a longer engine without stroke, just not using exsting bore spacing and block length.

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Originally Posted by Wall$treet View Post
So in the end the m3 will be 3900 pounds, 475hp, TTV6 with 0-60 in 4s, quarter in 12 flat. 285's rear 265 front 19's.

And there it is folks
I'd guess lower, in weight, probably significantly. The 550i does not bode well for the M5s weight but there is rumors of a massive weight savings effort. The M5 and the new base 3er are going to be the most important bellweathers for the new M3s weight. I also think your numbers a bit too conservative. Perhaps mine are too generous. I have, however, done some significant work in coming up with them.

Cheers again, good post.
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      05-22-2011, 04:59 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
About the GT-R, you must know it is the fastest 4-seater car.
Just like a 911 it does not have real useable back seats in any defintion of the word "seat". It is a 2+2. Both the GT-R and 911 rears are good for a trip to the grocery store for a 10 year old kid, nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
As about weight we shall see, and I am very eager:
-the X3 F25 is 30kg than the X3 E83
-the M3 EVO Limited Edition E90 is said to weigh 1550 kg (DIN)
-the M3 CSL Concept E92 is said to be a preview of the next M3 F32
-the M5 F10 is said to be 60 kg lighter than the 550i F10!!!!!!

The answers will come very soon, also when the new 1 Series F20 will be revealed.
I am not so sure that the F20 weight matters that much. As I said above the 550i weight is extremely bad news for the M5 weight. It is something like 350 lb heaver than the outgoing 550i. Can you tell us more about the rumors of a serious weight reduction for the F10 M5? Also, as mentioned above the F30/F32 base weight is another key factor in predicting the F30/F32 M3s weight.
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      05-22-2011, 05:55 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
It is completely irrelevant what cars people compare on forums! What matters is what people cross-shop and actually seriously consider buying.

Of course the GTR beats the 4D M3, because it is in a totally different league and price bracket.
Hey Antzcrashing? Must feel pretty good being hypercritical! Levi is right in what he said about M3 vs... Post "evidence" that it is completely irrelevant what cars people compare on forums...if not, why don't you make a spec of the F3X against this below. Your opinion is worthless. Why even post in a rumors thread.



First Drive: 2012 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Coupe



Timing is key. Mercedes-Benz's new C-Class Coupe will arrive in the U.S. this fall, half a year before archrival BMW replaces its 3 Series, including the coupe, the most consistently successful such two-door in this class. While BMW typically needs a full year between a new 3 Series introduction and a new M3 hot rod, AMG already has the proper engine, the 6.2-liter "63," plus all the other mods, including chassis and bodywork, from the well-established C63 sedan and not-for-U.S. wagon, so its hot rod will launch concurrently with the new C-Coupe bodystyle.


Both the new C-Class Coupe and its AMG variant fill many gaps beyond the one BMW is about to create. They take the place of the moderately successful CLK-Class, which Mercedes replaced with the larger, costlier E-Class coupe. The C-Coupe fills in the size category between the 1 Series/1M and the 3 Series/M3, the latter of which was stretched to a larger size than the 3 sedan because BMW nearly called it the 4 Series. Mercedes still has the Audi A5/S5 to contend with, though they aren't nearly as iconic or powerful as the Bavarian brand's coupe.


With BMW prepared to downsize the M3's engine back to six cylinders, this time with twin turbos, and enthusiasts worried the 3's chassis and steering will get the same treatment as Series 5 and 7, the timing couldn't be better for a 451-horsepower V-8 under the hood of a tight new C-Class coupe. Those of you yearning for even more power can choose a version of the C63 coupe with what AMG calls a "development package" that adds the SLS AMG's lighter pistons, rod, and crankshaft, subtracting weight and adding engine speed and 30 more peak horsepower for a higher top speed. AMG estimates a 0-62 mph acceleration time of 4.4 seconds for the 451-horse version and 4.3 seconds for the 481-horsepower version. Top speed is electronically limited to 155 mph, though if you add the optional Driver's Package, the limiter cuts off at 174 mph and the giddy new owner gets free driver training thrown in to keep him or her off the curbs

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      05-22-2011, 08:33 PM   #195
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Not saying it should be this way, but it is this way
It might be for the next generation just around the corner (like the M5), due to the fact their 'donor' models are bigger and heavier, but as swamp said, that trend has to stop at some time. And with the tough new CAFE standards, I bet it starts with the next iteration. And you already saw the beginning of that, with smaller/lighter engines. I predict the weight increase will be minimum, then reversed on the next model.
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      05-23-2011, 03:16 AM   #196
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Okay ... to see in what direction BMW M goes in weight issues, we have to wait only one month till June, 23th, when BMW M presents on the M Night the lightweight M3 EVO und give us all informations about the car ... if not something leakes earlier.

Greets Uli_HH
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      05-23-2011, 04:29 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
It might be for the next generation just around the corner (like the M5), due to the fact their 'donor' models are bigger and heavier, but as swamp said, that trend has to stop at some time. And with the tough new CAFE standards, I bet it starts with the next iteration. And you already saw the beginning of that, with smaller/lighter engines. I predict the weight increase will be minimum, then reversed on the next model.
I think this is spot on. The F10 is much larger and heavier than the E60. Even if BMW M did a great job with the M5 and made it a couple hundred pounds lighter than the 550i you are still looking at almost same weight as the E60. If the F30 continues this trend and is 200-300lbs heavier, the next M3 will be in the same ball park as the current m3 for weight.

I don't think we will see any considerable drop in weight until the base models start losing weight. So far we only have the F10 to go off of, but its not looking very good.
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      05-23-2011, 07:22 AM   #198
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I didn't take it as a fact..
I did, because that is exactly how he stated it, and exactly how he meant it.

Quote:
and it was nothing more than just another opinion.
No, no, and also... no. You are pretty naive, but that is to be expected for someone who is not familiar with forums like this one where rumor quickly spirals into fact, and real facts often get lost in the shuffle.

Quote:
People are not that stupid about what's speculation and what's factual about the next M3 engine these early days.
Wrongo. Stick around you will see just how stupid people can be. "Stupid" - if you want to call it that - I personally just consider it ignorance, and I am happy to help contribute to the collective education of the BMW community.

I'd actually love to get back to doing that, so, cheers.
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