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      05-23-2011, 07:26 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry sanghera View Post
Now you have confused me.
That's not factual information and certainly is not from an official source. It is just more speculation thrown on top of what we already have. And that's fine, that is what this thread is for - to speculate. But let's not get ahead of ourselves and make statements that suggest we already have confirmed information - because we do not.
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      05-23-2011, 08:29 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
That's not factual information and certainly is not from an official source. It is just more speculation thrown on top of what we already have. And that's fine, that is what this thread is for - to speculate. But let's not get ahead of ourselves and make statements that suggest we already have confirmed information - because we do not.
+1

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      05-23-2011, 02:06 PM   #201
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I still expect the next M3 will get a 6

-

If I had to bet I'd say some form of 6 + turbo(s). Why, the sea-change at BMW & M Div re

* emphasis on Efficient Dynamics
* ever more stringent regulation around fuel consumption in major markets
* the potential to address the weight issue by reducing engine block size
* the indicated willingness to use turbos on the new M car models

While the V6 may seem sacrilegious given the I6 lineage, my surmise is that the best engineering solution format given the design objective / cost will win out ni the end.
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      05-23-2011, 02:18 PM   #202
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Sorry to go off-topic, but it seems none of you understand:

If the M5 F10 is really 60 kg lighter than 550i it means BMW M was able to make the car alot lighter yet having added weight by suspenssion, engine and other upgrades, what is not the case of when comparing 335i E92 and M3 E92.

If the X3 F25 is 30 kg lighter than the X3 E83, it means the next 3 Series F30 will also be lighter than the 3 Series E90, as the X3 F25 is built on the new 3 Series F30 platform.

If the M3 EVO E90 and M3 CSL E92 are previews of lightweight technology for the next M3 F32, than the M3 F32 will really be very light using the lastest "lightweight strategy" that starts by BMW i and will go over to BMW M before beign used for all BMW cars as much as possible.

That the next M3 F32 will be lighter than the M3 E92 is certain, I heard it will even be lighter than the M3 E46.
I say the M3 F32 will weigh between 1500 kg and 1550 kg (DIN). And if you do not believe here is how to calculate it:
Let us say 340i F30 will be about 40 kg lighter than 335i E90, it would give 1560 kg (DIN). Now the 3 Series Coupé F32 loses 10 kg, that gives 1550 kg (DIN). Then the M3 F32 gets 30 kg of performance upgrades, but loses another 60 kg thanks to CF roof, hood, doors and trunk (just as the M3 EVO E90) and other lightweight technologies, and here you get a 1520 kg (DIN) M3 F32.

All these speculations will be revealed in the next month by the 1 Series F20, than is built on the same platform as the 3 Series F30, and on the weight saving of the M5 F10 and M3 EVO.
For the 1 Series F20 it should be so: take the 128i with the TT 2.0l I4 and add ~100 kg to get the weight of a 3 Series F30, and another ~100 kg to get the weight of 340i with the TT 3.0l I6. Then take away ~50 kg for the M3 and there you get the weight.
Try: 1400 kg + 100 kg + 100 kg - 50 kg = 1550 kg

The next M3 F32 weighs 1550 kg (DIN), if not better !!!
Same for the next M2 F22, it will weigh 1450 kg (DIN) if not better.
I expect the M3 CSL F32 to weigh 1400 kg (DIN).

Last edited by Levi; 05-23-2011 at 02:23 PM.
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      05-23-2011, 02:26 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
That the next M3 F32 will be lighter than the M3 E92 is certain...
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      05-23-2011, 02:34 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Sorry to go off-topic, but it seems none of you understand:

If the M5 F10 is really 60 kg lighter than 550i it means BMW M was able to make the car alot lighter yet having added weight by suspenssion, engine and other upgrades, what is not the case of when comparing 335i E92 and M3 E92.

If the X3 F25 is 30 kg lighter than the X3 E83, it means the next 3 Series F30 will also be lighter than the 3 Series E90, as the X3 F25 is built on the new 3 Series F30 platform.

If the M3 EVO E90 and M3 CSL E92 are previews of lightweight technology for the next M3 F32, than the M3 F32 will really be very light using the lastest "lightweight strategy" that starts by BMW i and will go over to BMW M before beign used for all BMW cars as much as possible.

That the next M3 F32 will be lighter than the M3 E92 is certain, I heard it will even be lighter than the M3 E46.
I say the M3 F32 will weigh between 1500 kg and 1550 kg (DIN). And if you do not believe here is how to calculate it:
Let us say 340i F30 will be about 40 kg lighter than 335i E90, it would give 1560 kg (DIN). Now the 3 Series Coupé F32 loses 10 kg, that gives 1550 kg (DIN). Then the M3 F32 gets 30 kg of performance upgrades, but loses another 60 kg thanks to CF roof, hood, doors and trunk (just as the M3 EVO E90) and other lightweight technologies, and here you get a 1520 kg (DIN) M3 F32.

All these speculations will be revealed in the next month by the 1 Series F20, than is built on the same platform as the 3 Series F30, and on the weight saving of the M5 F10 and M3 EVO.
For the 1 Series F20 it should be so: take the 128i with the TT 2.0l I4 and add ~100 kg to get the weight of a 3 Series F30, and another ~100 kg to get the weight of 340i with the TT 3.0l I6. Then take away ~50 kg for the M3 and there you get the weight.
Try: 1400 kg + 100 kg + 100 kg - 50 kg = 1550 kg

The next M3 F32 weighs 1550 kg (DIN), if not better !!!
Same for the next M2 F22, it will weigh 1450 kg (DIN) if not better.
I expect the M3 CSL F32 to weigh 1400 kg (DIN).
+1

The F3X M3 will certainly be lighter than the E9X M3. Everything is pointing in that direction:

1.BMW's push towards commercializing carbon fiber construction across all models and bringing down costs.

2. The development of the BMW City (i3) car that is constructed of mostly carbon.

3. Their 20%+ purchase of SGL Group to fend off VW.

4. Announcement of M3 EVO.

5. Announcement of future light weight components (Brakes, Springs, etc...).

-SZ
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      05-23-2011, 03:26 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO View Post
Everything is pointing in that direction:
All evidence suggests BMW is working heavily on weight management and lightweight materials. Absolutely no doubt about that. So, clearly the car will weigh less than it otherwise would have if not for these initiatives. But how much the final product weighs relative to other BMW products - past or present - is unknown. Certainly they are not going to decontent the car to meet some arbitrary weight cutoff point, they are not going to produce a near-exotic $100k+ M3 just to avoid crossing some line in the sand, and most importantly, they certainly are not going to compromise on engineering, longevity, safety, and reliability.
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      05-23-2011, 03:34 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
All evidence suggests BMW is working heavily on weight management and lightweight materials. Absolutely no doubt about that. So, clearly the car will weigh less than it otherwise would have if not for these initiatives. But how much the final product weighs relative to other BMW products - past or present - is unknown. Certainly they are not going to decontent the car to meet some arbitrary weight cutoff point, they are not going to produce a near-exotic $100k+ M3 just to avoid crossing some line in the sand, and most importantly, they certainly are not going to compromise on engineering, longevity, safety, and reliability.
I don't understand why this is so hard to see. F3x m3 weighing less than E46 m3?
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      05-23-2011, 03:37 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
If the M5 F10 is really 60 kg lighter than 550i it means BMW M was able to make the car alot lighter yet having added weight by suspenssion, engine and other upgrades, what is not the case of when comparing 335i E92 and M3 E92.
I'm not following you here. Is there any information about 335 vs M3 suspension etc weight differences? As far as I understand, some parts are heavier in the M3 (even though they're made of lighter materials) since they're significantly stronger.
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      05-23-2011, 03:41 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
That the next M3 F32 will be lighter than the M3 E92 is certain

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
That.




Levi: Look I am not debating that BMW is getting better and perhaps will finally recognize some of their promises of "Efficient Dynamics". Your "evidence" though is a tremendous amount of ifs. Similarly there are contrary trends as well such as the huge weight gain from the E60 to F10 550i.
  1. I now see your intended relevance of the F20. I did not know that about the F20 (I just don't follow BMW closely enough outside of the M cars). However, I'm still not too sure that the F20 weight will really tell us much about the M3. Too many other differences to make a comparison. The data point is relvant just not highly relevant in my opinion.
  2. Similarly, special editions like the EVO and CSL don't mean much of anything. They are super low volume specials with parts that can not be afforded to put on production volume cars.
  3. You can't deny the weight gains at many component levels required to go from a normal series to an M series car. Parts need to be more durable to put up with more stress and abuse and typically the only way to do so (cost effectively) is to add weight.
  4. Carbon fiber based composites used in the body of the M3 compared to existing existing SMC (also a composite just not CF) would probably lead to weight gain not weight loss. Also the use of CF for STRUCTURAL parts of the main body is probably something very far out in the future.

Either way we should probably start a new or revise prior threads on weight estimates for the new M3 . My weight estimate of ~3600 lb (closer to 1650 kg) was given in my thread on performance modeling of the new M3 here.
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      05-23-2011, 03:54 PM   #209
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I don't think F3x M3 will be lighter than E9x M3.
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      05-23-2011, 04:00 PM   #210
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All of this weight talk has me wondering something. How many of you think that the next M3 is going to be smaller than the E92? If you need a definition of smaller...length is shorter, width is narrower.

Also, is it unreasonable to conclude that without an aggressive approach to curtailing weight gains that the next M3 would balloon in weight by 100kg whereas with an aggressive effort via various means the weight increase can be held to perhaps 30-50kg? For the life of me, I cannot conceive the next M3 weighing anything but more so long as the dimensions of the vehicle increase, and with the inclusion of more lightweight parts constructed from the likes of carbon fiber, is that not a guarantee of additional production costs that translate into higher sticker prices?
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      05-23-2011, 08:32 PM   #211
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OK, ignoring my own advise to change threads...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eau Rouge View Post
All of this weight talk has me wondering something. How many of you think that the next M3 is going to be smaller than the E92? If you need a definition of smaller...length is shorter, width is narrower.
The info have have seen is:

Item, E92, F32 (all in inch)
Length: 178.2, 180.3
Width: 71.5, 70.2
Height: 55.9, 54.1
Wheelbase: 108.7, 108.7

Note: The source for the above dimensions is the only dimensional information I have found for the F32 which is this. It does not appear to be a particularly reliable source. I have no idea why they seem to have the information but no one else does. This source even quotes a curb weight of 3417, just a hair lower than the 3428 figure quoted for the US E92 328i.

This is some fairly positive news that the new M3 may in fact be lighter than the current one. It also indicates a trend halt or maybe even reversal since we know each successive 3 series has grown substantially in overall dimensions and weight.
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      05-24-2011, 08:42 AM   #212
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A V6 based on the S63 engine wouldn't be so bad, especially if it's turbocharged. Think of the E46 naturally aspired I-6, that 3.2L was a beast, and BMW has already proved with the N54/N55 engines that they are capable of creating a lot of power with turbos. I think a turbo V6 would cease to impress all and match up nicely, if not better than the current S65.
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      05-24-2011, 08:44 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
1. Do it

2. Don't even think about it. N54 is old news, and don't talk to me about the "potential of it"

3. Do it

4. Don't even think about it. I don't care how many turbos or its output torque.
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      05-24-2011, 05:20 PM   #214
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As long as BMW/M is going FI on the next M3, why not just go with a 4-banger with both SC & TC (I think there was a rally car like that once). Talk about Efficient Dynamics.
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      05-24-2011, 05:23 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
As long as BMW/M is going FI on the next M3, why not just go with a 4-banger with both SC & TC (I think there was a rally car like that once). Talk about Efficient Dynamics.
I believe it was a VW car... something like Golf. Jeremy Clarkson said it was as smooth as falling down some stairs.. Not sure if he was entertaining or giving real info..
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      05-24-2011, 05:46 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
I believe it was a VW car... something like Golf. Jeremy Clarkson said it was as smooth as falling down some stairs.. Not sure if he was entertaining or giving real info..
lulz (smooth as ... stairs).

I think it was a Lancia in World Rally Championship series? (around the time when Audi came out w/ the Quattro)
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      05-24-2011, 06:39 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
lulz (smooth as ... stairs).

I think it was a Lancia in World Rally Championship series? (around the time when Audi came out w/ the Quattro)
Ok, here it is:

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/08/23/v...-turbo-engine/

Quote:
Originally Posted by autoblog
Call it a double-whammy, but VW calls it a SuperTurbo. Actually it is 'SuperTurbo Compounding' by Eaton, the likely supplier of the system. Essentially, you have a turbocharged engine that is also fitted with a supercharger. The complexities of handling this type of forced induction have limited its automotive application. The supercharger provides instantaneous power. Once the turbo is providing boost, the supercharger's clutch is disengaged and it is closed off from the induction system, allowing the turbo to take over completely. The result is a power plant that has none of the usual performance compromises found in typical forced-induction scenarios. The numbers are quite impressive. VW will initially offer the system in its European line up. The first engine will be a 1.4-liter four cylinder that will produce 140 hp and 184 lb-ft of torque, with a performance version producing 170 hp and 199 lb-ft. That is crazy power out of such a small displacement engine. Fuel economy is another benefit to this approach. VW plans to offer this power plant up against turbodiesel engines, which could also benefit from this system. VW is also working on 1.6 and 2.0-liter versions of the SuperTurbo, which would produce 195 hp and 240 hp respectively. While all this power sounds great, we wonder how reliable the entire system will be. VW four-cylinders are normally very robust. We worry about the electro-mechanical reliability of the system. What happens when the supercharger's clutch fails to disengage or engage? Obviously there are a lot of interdependencies involved. We're hoping that Eaton and VW have developed enough 'interlocks' to prevent one failure from jeopardizing the entire system.
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      05-24-2011, 07:04 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
Nice. That a FWD or AWD?

Anyhow, here's a link for rally Lancia Delta S4. 1.8L engine producing 480 HP with combined supercharging and turbocharging.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Delta_S4
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      05-26-2011, 08:30 AM   #219
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And now for something completely different:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/25/n...ment-turbo-v8/

Wild 'Vette rumors come up all the time and most never end up panning out. Still, this one is intriguing because this type of setup would retain the V8 engine while lowering displacement closer to a 6 cylinder. I've brought this up in the past as something that I think would be cool for an M3 too. Best of both worlds - you get your small displacement turbo, but you still get the V8 engine note. It's a bit like what McLaren did, but taken down a notch or two to keep costs realistic.
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      05-26-2011, 08:47 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
And now for something completely different:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/25/n...ment-turbo-v8/

Wild 'Vette rumors come up all the time and most never end up panning out. Still, this one is intriguing because this type of setup would retain the V8 engine while lowering displacement closer to a 6 cylinder. I've brought this up in the past as something that I think would be cool for an M3 too. Best of both worlds - you get your small displacement turbo, but you still get the V8 engine note. It's a bit like what McLaren did, but taken down a notch or two to keep costs realistic.
That would be pretty sweet!
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