6MT or DCT?

[AIRPOWER]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Ah, damn, I'm sorry! I didn't mean to be indirect at all.

What a knee slapper!!!!!! Go put your car in park........

[Jim B]

Originally Posted by JamesGames

Agree with you.. having a 6MT myself that lives on the public roads, the manual transmission was more enjoyable to me - a trip to the grocery store and rowing gears throughout some 90 degree turns on the streets with speed limits is more fun to me than on a DCT car.

If my car saw a lot of track time, I'd probably go DCT.. but to live with a car that I have to row my own gears to get to Vons is more fun than DCT. That's how I ultimately made my choice.. and yes I'll sit in LA traffic rowing gears and it's more fun to me than the DCT still. (But to each their own right?)

If I had a E92 M3, I'd probably favor the DCT more due to those ridiculous sounding downshifts and the multiple quick blips, but the buttery smooth F8X manual transmission is a huge improvement IMO and is a joy in itself.

+1

[m4recruiter]

I drive manual, but wanted DCT for ease of switching drivers in the family (nobody else drives stick).

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I too enjoy those debates (when done respectfully and intelligently)

It is also funny to see how threads like this one pick-up when it gets quiet with "new news" about the M3/4 .



First off, I think it is great that BMW is still offering us consumers the choice of a 6MT for the M3/4; and I can perfectly understand why some folks prefer the "manual" option.

Second, I could not really care less that people call the DCT an "automatic". However, considering the DCT just as any other "automatic" is really missing the point of what a DCT is all about. I have already posted something to that effect earlier, but I will elaborate a little more.

The point of view of the majority of 6MT advocates is focused on the driver's interface with the controls, meaning the H-pattern shifter and the clutch pedal. From that point of view, yes DCT more closely resembles an automatic. My point of view though is focused on the connection between driver and result; the link between the driver's desire and the vehicle's behavior. And from that point of view, DCT is much closer to a "manual" than it is to an "automatic".

The reason I picked manual transmissions on all my previous cars before my first DCT is quite simple: it was the better performance option. Period.

Torque converter automatics were slower. Not only acceleration wise, but mostly response wise. There was that inherent disconnection between your right foot and the power delivered to the drive wheels due to the torque converter. There was also that inherent delay when requesting a gear change. For those reasons, automatic gearboxes were a real drag (no pun intended) to drive spiritedly on the street or at the limit on track. The unpredictable power delivery made it nearly impossible to throttle steer the car and made them quite jerky.

With a manual transmission, the driver could control exactly how the power was delivered to the drive wheels and it offered better acceleration to boot. When a gear is engaged, there is a hard mechanical connection from the engine to the drive wheels. The driver would precisely command when a given gear would engage. I did not buy 6MT to press a pedal and row gears, I bought 6MT for the increased performance and control over the car. That is what made them "more engaging" to me. They provided the best relationship between the driver's input and vehicle behavior.

The DCT offer exactly that, and more. I see the DCT as the next evolution of the manual transmission and not as an evolution of "automatics". It is not because DCT can be made to manage the gear selection process that it means it is its primary function. DCT were designed to bring the gear change process to the next level of performance while leaving the gear selection to the driver. That is why they are progressively replacing manuals on high performance cars.

Traditional torque converter/planetary-gear automatics will continue to exist. They have their own raison-d'etre and will not be replaced with DCT. They also evolved quite a bit in terms of responsiveness and performance. Quite a few traditional automatics have become faster that their manual counterparts and electronics have dramatically improved their responsiveness. However, they still cannot match the direct mechanical connection offered by MT or DCT.

Manual transmissions have evolved a fair bit too, with more and more automated features added to them to simplify their operation (synchromesh, clutch dampers, dual mass flywheels, auto-rev-match to name a few). But their interface with the driver has remained fairly constant (H-pattern shifter and a clutch). And it is that interface that most 6MT advocates are attached to IMO. And this is why they resent DCT, because it changes how they communicate with the car, even if the car's response itself is not altered or even improved with DCT. For my part, I have done so many MT gear changes, blips and heel-and-toes, that it has become a second nature; I don't even need to "think" about it when I do it anymore, so I don't find rowing my own gears to be that much more "engaging".

I have to admit, when ordering my M4, I pondered a very long time between the DCT and 6MT. Not because I wanted to row my own gears, but because I was not sure which offered the best total performance package (I have a long thread on this). And even to this day, I am pretty convinced that on the F8X, the DCT does not offer as much of an advantage as it did on the E9X.

And I take all those comments about "not caring for those few tenths of second" from most of the MT crowd with tongue in cheek. Why do they add JB4 and downpipes and intakes just to gain those few tenths back .

All that being said, there are many who pick the DCT because it manages the whole gear change/selection process for them. In their case, they do pick DCT because it is an automatic.

Sorry for the long dissertation, hopefully some will find it entertaining in that quiet "no new news" period .

The BMW Steptronic 8 Speed (which is sourced from ZF) does have a direct mechanical connection. Once the car is underway the torque converter is locked out by a clutch that directly connects the engine to the transmission.
A friend of mine tested a Porsche Cayman with a DCT and a Jaguar F-Type with a ZF Automatic for Road and Track. He told me he did not find much of a difference between the PDK (DCT) in the Cayman and the ZF planetary gear automatic in the Jag. I have driven a Jaguar XF with the ZF AT back to back with my DCT M4 and to be honest I did not find much of a difference either.

And I agree with you that shifting an MT, double clutching, rev matching down shifts, etc. became second nature. I enjoy driving MTs but I do not feel board when I am driving a DCT.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by goneloco

I saw another post about left foot braking. But imo the pedals are too close to get both feet in there.

I installed an AT size brake pedal in my DCT M4.

It makes left foot braking easier.

[Frank_NJ]

I went manual transmission after having the DCT. Just didn't feel connected with the car with the dct. In my case family members and my fiance can drive a manual so no issue if they need to use the car.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The BMW Steptronic 8 Speed (which is sourced from ZF) does have a direct mechanical connection. Once the car is underway the torque converter is locked out by a clutch that directly connects the engine to the transmission.
A friend of mine tested a Porsche Cayman with a DCT and a Jaguar F-Type with a ZF Automatic for Road and Track. He told me he did not find much of a difference between the PDK (DCT) in the Cayman and the ZF planetary gear automatic in the Jag. I have driven a Jaguar XF with the ZF AT back to back with my DCT M4 and to be honest I did not find much of a difference either.

And I agree with you that shifting an MT, double clutching, rev matching down shifts, etc. became second nature. I enjoy driving MTs but I do not feel board when I am driving a DCT.

While I agree that traditional automatics are bridging the gap, they still don't match the 6MT and DCT in terms of responsiveness. It is quite possible that with further progress, they will be able to render the DCT obsolete. But they are not there yet IMO.

I have recently driven a ZF 8AT in a 340i loaner, and found that disconnected feel still very present. Yes, there is a torque converter lock-up when driving at constant speeds, but in varying throttle conditions that direct connection is lost. Further, there is still a quite significant delay when requesting a gear and the actual shift. I have also test driven a C63 (with the 6.2l V8, I have not tried the new C63 yet) and also found the AMG MCT to be lacking in responsiveness, even if it skips the torque converter altogether. So I have to disagree with you and your friend. Just my humble opinion though .

[Sassicaia]

au·to·mat·ic
ˌôdəˈmadik/
adjective
(of a device or process) working by itself with little or no direct human control.



man·u·al
ˈmanyə(wə)l/
adjective
a thing operated or done by hand rather than automatically or electronically, in particular.

**runs and hides behind couch

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

the AMG MCT to be lacking in responsiveness, even if it skips the torque converter altogether.

I'd love to get your (test drive) thoughts on the new MCT, it's supposed to have mostly closed the DCT gap with Benz insisting that for efficiency and comfort it's a better choice for a daily driver with few sport compromises (while their GT gets the DCT).

Also the new E63 is supposed to be getting a sport version of their new 9-speed MCT, which is then supposed to be put in the C63S ... so clearly Benz is committed to the MCT technology for their 4 seaters and luxe cars.

[AIRPOWER]

Another reason why MT is better

Would-be carjacker foiled by stick shift http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/08...ick-shift.html

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

au·to·mat·ic
ˌôdəˈmadik/
adjective
(of a device or process) working by itself with little or no direct human control.

man·u·al
ˈmanyə(wə)l/
adjective
a thing operated or done by hand rather than automatically or electronically, in particular.

DCT (Double Clutch Transmission)
dee cee tee/
noun
the latest (some say superior) transmission technology that offers the user the advantages of both manual and automatic transmissions without the disadvantages of either.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

DCT (Double Clutch Transmission)
dee cee tee/
noun
the latest (some say superior) transmission technology that offers the user the advantages of both manual and automatic transmissions without the disadvantages of either.

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the car is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats what you are saying I disagree because science.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the care is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats what you are saying I disagree because science.

I think it's called grasping at straws.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the car is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats [sic] what you are saying I disagree because science.

Interpret it any way you want, I'm saying that I can change gears with my DCT and be just involved as I am when I drive my Z4 M Roadster and I learned that by driving 3,000 miles in two weeks during my Euro Delivery trip on just about any kind of road you can, including the Autobahn; windy, twisty mountain roads; city streets; and three different tracks. I drove it like a manual, and it responded like a manual. When I was driving through coastal towns during a holiday with stop-and-go traffic, I just put it in D.

Why don't you just stop putting down those that prefer the DCT as if your ability to shift a manual is somehow a superior skill set? The DCT in my M4 offers me the best of both worlds.

How much time do you actually have with a DCT? Any? Minutes? Hours? Days? If you don't have any real seat time with a DCT how can you possibly determine it's inferior to a manual transmission? Because you only need to use finger to shift? (You seem really hung up on that.)

I've probably been driving a manual since way before you were born and I probably have way more experience than you with a DCT, and probably way more experience on a track, and the DCT is my choice. Drive what you like and stop railing against the DCT like some born again christian spouting dogma. Why do you feel the need to prove your decision? I tried them both and I made my decision, and my decision is the only one that matters to me. You must think that I actually gave a crap what anyone else thought when I ordered my car.

[F83]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Just so I understand what you mean. You are saying tapping a paddle with your finger is the equivalent as shifting a manual transition modulating a clutch, gas and shifter?

You don't be believe that by taping a paddle the car is not "working by itself with little to no direct human control?"

If thats what you are saying I disagree because science.

+1. Look, I have no complaint with those that choose the DCT vs 6MT. Not for me but lots of reasons to do it. If you want pure performance it is - unambiguously - the better choice. These are all great cars.

But this argument that "Hey the DCT is really a MANUAL transmission not an automatic"....

Yes I understand the "within the transmission" reason why that has "technical" validity, but it doesn't have real world validity. It is not a manual transmission in the cultural sense of the word with heel/toe shifting, clutch/throttle modulation, and just a feeling that all four limbs are actively engaged at all times.

Again, not knocking the DCT - at all. Just making the point that it is NOT a manual.

[landshark99]

For me the funny thing about the idea that the MT is somehow a purer connection to the car is not true anymore. Every manual today has some form of hill control, rev matching and clutch boost, the only direct connection to the car is the shift lever itself and even that many times is done with cables.
I drove manuals for years even with my trucks, I just now prefer the more advanced connection of the DCT, but feel free to enjoy your MTs

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

Interpret it any way you want, I'm saying that I can change gears with my DCT and be just involved as I am when I drive my Z4 M Roadster and I learned that by driving 3,000 miles in two weeks during my Euro Delivery trip on just about any kind of road you can, including the Autobahn; windy, twisty mountain roads; city streets; and three different tracks. I drove it like a manual, and it responded like a manual. When I was driving through coastal towns during a holiday with stop-and-go traffic, I just put it in D.

Why don't you just stop putting down those that prefer the DCT as if your ability to shift a manual is somehow a superior skill set? The DCT in my M4 offers me the best of both worlds.

How much time do you actually have with a DCT? Any? Minutes? Hours? Days? If you don't have any real seat time with a DCT how can you possibly determine it's inferior to a manual transmission? Because you only need to use finger to shift? (You seem really hung up on that.)

I've probably been driving a manual since way before you were born and I probably have way more experience than you with a DCT, and probably way more experience on a track, and the DCT is my choice. Drive what you like and stop railing against the DCT like some born again christian spouting dogma. Why do you feel the need to prove your decision? I tried them both and I made my decision, and my decision is the only one that matters to me. You must think that I actually gave a crap what anyone else thought when I ordered my car.

Who's putting anyone down? Can you quote any specific thing from any post I made that puts someone down?

Certainly I'm debating the merits of the argument that DCT is in effect automatic by sheer definition whether in "manual" mode or automatic.

The argument of "I've been driving manual since before you were born" doesn't work here. I bought my first manual car in 1994, so even if you drove manual before that the argument is moot give the years of experience.

Saying your experience driving "manual" with a DCT responded like a manual is factually untrue. While the car might go from one gear to the next with DCT the similarity between manual and DCT ends there. A manual requires manual input with clutch, gas and shifter a DCT only requires taping a paddle. You don't need to change anything on the throttle, engage and dissangage a clutch, or shift a manual gear box.

You ask if I have driven DCT (I have), but I think what a lot of people here who this thread are wondering is if you have ever actually driven a manual?

There reason I'm enjoying debating this topic in this thread is because this thread is the place to due so (hence the tittle DCT vs Manual).

The real question is why are you taking this personal, and asking someone in a thread dedicated to debating the differences to stop doing so?

Happy with your purchase? Great! This thread isn't about if you are happy, this thread is discussing/debating DCT vs Manual. As long as anyone tries to say they are the same I'm happy to debate that. I find it easy because science and engineering is on my side. Seems like hope, wishing only opinions are on the other.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by landshark99

For me the funny thing about the idea that the MT is somehow a purer connection to the car is not true anymore. Every manual today has some form of hill control, rev matching and clutch boost, the only direct connection to the car is the shift lever itself and even that many times is done with cables.
I drove manuals for years even with my trucks, I just now prefer the more advanced connection of the DCT, but feel free to enjoy your MTs

No question many things about manual transmissions today are more automatic then those from decades ago. That said the automatic aspects only make up 5-10% of the manual control needed and are mostly based on comfort.

If yesterday manuals are a mile away from today's, then DCT manuals are 100s of miles away.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

You ask if I have driven DCT (I have), but I think what a lot of people here who this thread are wondering is if you have ever actually driven a manual

This sentence doesn't even make sense grammatically.

But I think what you're saying is that a "lot of people here are are wondering if I've ever actually driven a manual." I actually doubt whether anyone else here besides you is wondering whether I have ever actually driven a manual. Oh, and nice deflection there, asking me if I've ever driven a manual, while not answering how much you've drive a DCT for comparison.

But just for the record, I learned how to drive a manual on a tractor when I was 13. No syncros. Ever done that? I bought my first car when I was 15 and it was a manual. I've driven manuals for over 50 years now, every car that I've owned since I was 21 has been a manual. My wife has a 335is Coupe with a manual, and every car that she's owned has been a manual, she's never owned an automatic. I've driven every car that she's owned. You may have missed the fact that I also have a Z4 M Roadster which only came with a manual, as did the S2000 that I bought new before that and had for 13 years. Every single car that I've owned in the last 44 years has been a manual. And every single car I've driven on the track for the last 20 years has been a manual. Yeah, I think I've driven a few manuals. But I love my DCT! And I've driven a few M3s, M4s, and M5s with DCT on a few tracks as well.

P.S. Can you rev-match downshift? (And not in your M, that does that, wait for it, automatically!) How about heel/toe downshift? If you can't do that consistently, on a track, at every corner, then your manual skills ain't crap. And yeah, I've done that. A lot.

[landshark99]

Originally Posted by Sassicaia

Who's putting anyone down? Can you quote any specific thing from any post I made that puts someone down?

Certainly I'm debating the merits of the argument that DCT is in effect automatic by sheer definition whether in "manual" mode or automatic.

The argument of "I've been driving manual since before you were born" doesn't work here. I bought my first manual car in 1994, so even if you drove manual before that the argument is moot give the years of experience.

Saying your experience driving "manual" with a DCT responded like a manual is factually untrue. While the car might go from one gear to the next with DCT the similarity between manual and DCT ends there. A manual requires manual input with clutch, gas and shifter a DCT only requires taping a paddle. You don't need to change anything on the throttle, engage and dissangage a clutch, or shift a manual gear box.

You ask if I have driven DCT (I have), but I think what a lot of people here who this thread are wondering is if you have ever actually driven a manual?

There reason I'm enjoying debating this topic in this thread is because this thread is the place to due so (hence the tittle DCT vs Manual).

The real question is why are you taking this personal, and asking someone in a thread dedicated to debating the differences to stop doing so?

Happy with your purchase? Great! This thread isn't about if you are happy, this thread is discussing/debating DCT vs Manual. As long as anyone tries to say they are the same I'm happy to debate that. I find it easy because science and engineering is on my side. Seems like hope, wishing only opinions are on the other.

The only real difference is the use your foot instead of the computer to activate the clutch. Shifting paddles and deciding the gear selection is very similar to shifting the manual shift lever, modulating the gas pedal is almost exactly the same, the difference is how the clutches work and the gear set up. The reason the DCT is faster is that no matter what gear you are in, the transmission has the next upper and lower gears ready to go instantly. In fact it is basically two transmissions in one with 1,3,5,7 in one and the other with 2,4,6. Depending on the design of the DCT you have a more or less manual feel. In my GTR in R mode the car will not shift unless you do, even when hitting the rev limiter.
Every one has their own preference pick the one you enjoy more.

[Sassicaia]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

This sentence doesn't even make sense grammatically


But I think what you're saying is that a "lot of people here are are wondering if I've ever actually driven a manual." .

yup thats what I meant. Typing in hurry.

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

acutaly doubt whether anyone else here besides you is wondering whether I have ever actually driven a manual.

You said DCT responded the same as manual, so yes I think a lot of people would wonder if you have ever driven a manual with a statement like this. If there were the same why would BMW offer the different options?

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

and nice deflection there, asking me if I've ever driven a manual, while not answering how much you've drive a DCT for comparison.

no deflection. I have driven DCT enough to know. Maybe 2 hours worth? Dont need more then that. Id say you wouldnt need more then a few hours driving manual either to know that DCT is essentially automatic in "manual" mode compared to a true manual transition.

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

just for the record, I learned how to drive a manual on a tractor when I was 13. No syncros. Ever done that?

Nope, never. Relevance?

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

I bought my first car when I was 15 and it was a manual. I've driven manuals for over 50 years now, every car that I've owned since I was 21 has been a manual. My wife has a 335is Coupe with a manual, and every car that she's owned has been a manual, she's never owned an automatic. I've driven every car that she's owned. You may have missed the fact that I also have a Z4 M Roadster which only came with a manual, as did the S2000 that I bought new before that and had for 13 years. Every single car that I've owned in the last 44 years has been a manual. And every single car I've driven on the track for the last 20 years has been a manual. Yeah, I think I've driven a few manuals. But I love my DCT! And I've driven a few M3s, M4s, and M5s with DCT on a few tracks as well.

All that is great, and only makes me wonder even more just how its possible for you to come to the conclusion that DCT manual is essentially like a manual transition. I think the exact word you used is "responds" like a manual? Im even more amazed at that assessment based on your experience with manual cars.

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

P.S. Can you rev-match downshift? (And not in your M, that does that, wait for it, automatically!) How about heel/toe downshift? If you can't do that consistently, on a track, at every corner, then your manual skills ain't crap. And yeah, I've done that. A lot.

My rev matching is sloppy at best. Id rate it a 2 out of 10. I might be the only person on bimmerpost who isnt a master at rev matching. Again, i have to wonder what the relevance of my ability to rev match is to this debate? Doesnt matter if you can heel toe with your toung and ear...that doesnt make DCT in manual mode even remotely similar to a manual transmission.

[F83]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

This sentence doesn't even make sense grammatically.

But I think what you're saying is that a "lot of people here are are wondering if I've ever actually driven a manual." I actually doubt whether anyone else here besides you is wondering whether I have ever actually driven a manual. Oh, and nice deflection there, asking me if I've ever driven a manual, while not answering how much you've drive a DCT for comparison.

But just for the record, I learned how to drive a manual on a tractor when I was 13. No syncros. Ever done that? I bought my first car when I was 15 and it was a manual. I've driven manuals for over 50 years now, every car that I've owned since I was 21 has been a manual. My wife has a 335is Coupe with a manual, and every car that she's owned has been a manual, she's never owned an automatic. I've driven every car that she's owned. You may have missed the fact that I also have a Z4 M Roadster which only came with a manual, as did the S2000 that I bought new before that and had for 13 years.

P.S. Can you rev-match downshift? (And not in your M, that does that, wait for it, automatically!) How about heel/toe downshift? If you can't do that consistently, on a track, at every corner, then your manual skills ain't crap. And yeah, I've done that. A lot.

Yeah but it doesn't look like you've driven an F8X 6MT so with all due respect you know nothing Jon Snow.



Yes of course I am having fun with you. Good manual chops for sure. I have also driven an old tractor in my youth. Good fun but not much that I would transfer from that to a car.

FYI, Sport+ mode on the 6MT (which most 6MT drivers I know drive in) turns off rev matching so it's heel/toe all day long. Or... Left side of foot, right side of foot to be exact but don't get me going on THAT debate!