09-27-2012, 09:41 PM | #353 | |
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There are still relatively low cost tweaks they have been able to do to provide more power, more specific power (power per displacement) and better fuel efficiency, all the while while also raising redlines. One big step was direct injection. Also Ferrari care much more about heritage, soul, feel and sound, etc. than BMW (even than BMW M). Lastly, they care much less about penalties for not meeting CAFE standards, they are mostly inconsequential to Ferrari and they are probably passed along 100% to the consumer. They do still want to be greener just because it is a good image and "the right thing to do". Thus we will see some cool FI tech from Ferrari relatively soon, perhaps including a road version of the KERS system used in their race cars.
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09-27-2012, 11:29 PM | #354 | |
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It is not difficult to deduce, then, contrary to your claim, money is clearly not the primary motivator for M engine choices - at least not for the M3/M4 (it may very well have been for the 1M - in fact I'd guess that it was). |
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09-28-2012, 02:44 AM | #355 | ||
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Sorry, at BMW these days money is king. I know it is hard to admit, especially for our precious M division, but they are getting greedier and greedier over time. Perhaps too big for their own good. I certainly am not "preaching" against capitalism, but it does have its consequences. What part of this very good prior post did you miss, Quote:
An I6 will be so much less expensive than any kind of modified N63. It will be less expensive at the same volume and much less expensive at the very high volume given the plethora of vehicles it will be used in. Volume is the key to controlling cost, materials, suppliers, automation, etc. Certainly part of the reason for the very existence of the N63 is prestige - to have a "big" and "powerful" V8 for the 5ers and 7ers that sport the engine. Last but not least although development costs are important and large, they pale in comparison to production costs. OK the images are really the last points:
It can not be made much more clear than this.
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09-28-2012, 03:30 AM | #356 | |||
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From an R&D perspective, I am struggling to come up with a convincing argument that could demonstrate how taking an N55 and reworking the entire induction system, valvetrain, and heads to create an "S55" will somehow save money vs. just using the N63tu V8 that's already been developed for the 6 and 7 series range of products. I don't really want to get into a long winded debate or pissing match of any kind, but in my mind the truth in all this is pretty darn clear - BMW M is developing the "S55" not because it is the cheapest solution, but because it meets their needs best which include not just costs, and not even just efficiency or performance either, but also some degree of exclusivity and some degree of heritage too, and probably other intangibles that the marketing minds at BMW have ways of quantifying with respect to monetization. So then, I think even skullbusa has come up a bit short as far as all of the factors at play when it comes to making the business case. Going back to your original post, if an S65 with FI and/or DI would have met those needs best, then that is exactly what we'd have, even if it weren't necessarily the lowest cost to develop. And going back to my post, even if the N63tu is the least costly, if it doesn't meet all the needs of the product (read: exclusivity) then it is not going to make the cut. So what we end up with is something in the middle - not the cheapest engine to build, but no doubt cheaper than taking the current M3 engine and furthering its development. When you are trying to maintain your position in the marketplace as the enthusiast's #1 performance luxury sedan/coupe on the market, you have more to consider than just the number crunching from the bean counters and the engineers. You have to build the car that the ever-changing marketplace wants. |
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09-28-2012, 03:52 AM | #357 | |
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I will certainly agree that the V8 models are there partly for prestige, but lets not forget that they are also there because the competition offers similar vehicles at a given performance level so you have to do what you need to to keep up. But just as important here, lets not ignore the fact that a degree exclusivity for the M products effects their engineering just as prestige does for the higher end luxury products. Regarding production cost, we will soon see if you are correct, perhaps. If the new M I6 is going to save a heap of money on that front well then why shouldn't it propagate throughout the lineup, replacing the N63tu? Prestige? Let's look at the diesel engines for a moment. Notice that (after it went on hiatus for a time) BMW has effectively replaced the V8 diesel formerly in the 7 series with the new N57S tri-turbo I6 (incidentally, also an M-developed motor). Mercedes and Audi still use a V8 in this class. Who needs prestige when you can match the competitors' performance with a pumped of version of the same engine you use in the lowly 330i (with, you guessed it, a different induction system, of course)? |
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09-28-2012, 12:50 PM | #358 | |
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09-28-2012, 01:02 PM | #359 | |
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09-28-2012, 03:25 PM | #360 | |
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Again the I6 was chosen as the LEAST expensive solution that met the power and efficiency requirements, period. If somehow BMW could have the production volume of their turbo V8 and base V8 higher than the I6 and somehow they could make it less expensive it absolutely would be the engine going into the next M3&M4. No pissing match here just a discussion/debate! Cheers.
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09-28-2012, 06:00 PM | #362 |
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I love watching swamp2 and mkoesel go back and forth. They both up eachother repeatedly while keeping civil and adult like. It is so gosh darn entertaining. BTW mkoesel you should come to Justin J's huge drive from Ypsi to Royal Oak this Sunday.
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09-28-2012, 06:12 PM | #363 | |
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I'd say we very often agree as well!
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09-28-2012, 10:46 PM | #364 | |
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Due to shareholder relations and the new electronic world we live in, all publicly traded corporations must show the shareholder that his investment is being handled properly so that it will deliver a return in the future, it is the key to survival. The key to doing this successfully for M is finding a balance between responsible spending in R&D, and production & manufacturing, yet still delivering a product that delivers a driving experience that is fitting of an M Car. We will have to wait and see if BMW has been able to find this balance with the new F8X M3/M4....... I am not totally convinced yet, but I am crossing my fingers and hoping! |
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09-28-2012, 11:26 PM | #365 |
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The I6 is being used for a few apparent reasons.
1. It will have the lowest production costs. Less parts/materials than any V8 2. It will be the most efficient. Best gas mileage. 3. It makes no sense for BMW to invest even more heavily in any V8 architecture since it is going the way of the dinosaurs sooner rather than later. BMW knows the future of its premium level internal combustion engines is the I6 NOT the V8. By using a more advanced and developed version of their I6 in the M3/M4 they are investing in their future. It may cost a bit more in the short term assuming costs of just slapping the N63 in the car would be cheaper than the added I6 development costs + lower I6 production costs. The M3/M4 will be the testbed for future I6 development and thus the increased upfront investment makes obvious sense due to its technology being passed along to their mainstream I6 engines of the next 10+ years. Knowing their future is in the I6, BMW has wisely invested in it's further development by taking advantage of the once in 7 year opportunity a new M3 allows. The development of a new halo car allows for more experimental and cutting edge tech to be pushed past the bean counters, which they are willing to allow due to the good will it will generate with the enthusiasts and the later trickle down tech to mainstream products. It's comparable to the space program. All the massive $ expenditures by NASA over the years have amounted to little to no direct/immediate financial return. They did not result in the mining of unobtainium or bases on the Moon. However, they did result in numerous less exciting advancements across the spectrum. Tang anyone? Last edited by HBspeed; 09-29-2012 at 02:29 AM.. |
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09-29-2012, 12:19 AM | #366 | |
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Some of these other companies are making decisions less by the bean counter and more from a marketing/tradition/engineering/enthusiasts perspective. Sure they will be cutting costs as well, but they just are not as obsessed with cost as BMW. Also, even though I just said it a few posts ago, I'll say it again, I strongly believe that IF the cars has no noticeable turbo lag, it will be a hell of an engine, a hell of a car and almost for sure a class leader as it always had been. One beauty of engineering, a distinctly human endeavor, is that there is often so many alternate solutions for a problem which is not specified so strictly and precisely to only allow a single correct solution. Let's hope BMW M has a beautiful and elegant solution to the problem stated (mandated) by the bean counters!
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09-29-2012, 09:50 AM | #368 | |
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Sounds very logical to me. |
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09-29-2012, 09:58 AM | #369 | |
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And even if the engines might be somewhat comparable, their target audience isn't. Most M3 drivers use their car as daily driver. Most Ferrari drivers use their car as weekend/track fun toy. True. But the engine is one of many ingredients that make an M car. So the next M3 still has a chance to feel like an M. We'll have to wait and see... |
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09-29-2012, 10:11 AM | #370 | |
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Overall I'm sure the car will be a winner (and as I said many pages up the myriad chassis changes are most important to me), but i respect the fact that turbo lag can ruin an individual enthusiast's experience especially when used the immediacy of the S65. Here's hoping..... |
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09-29-2012, 12:26 PM | #371 | |
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You do know how many folks regularly track their BMWs? I'm sure you realize that there are many Ferraris that are daily drivers. Volume and cost and the biggest differences Yes, hopefully in additon to abandoning long held design principles BMW will stop it with the 50-50 weight distribution nonsense and move to a more effective rear weight bias, which will improve many aspects of handling
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09-29-2012, 12:42 PM | #372 | |
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Turbo lag is the delay in engine and vehicle response due to low engine torque. The engine is only making a fraction of its potential torque/power at a given rpm and throttle because the turbo takes some time to gain rpm to one where there is significant flow and pressure being produced. Thus the engine response and vehicle response lags the throttle response. This happens whenever the throttle is moved significantly and rapidly from low rpm. It affects raw vehicle performance and requires certain techniques to avoid or drive around its effects on the track. Perhaps equally important it negatively affects the feel of the vehicle; its immediacy and direct connection to the driver via his right foot. Traditionally, all M vehicles have enjoyed not only good throttle response but excellent throttle response. Some (more non-enthusiasts) in my opinion, claim that recent BMW efforts with their twin turbo in the 335i have eliminated turbo lag. Although they have done a good job it is still very present.
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09-29-2012, 01:43 PM | #373 |
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I disagree, to most enthusiasts Lag is the revs at which the Turbo is capable of producing boost. Technically known as Boost threshold.
Lag technically is the delay between throttle application and power delivery when the engine is in the boost threshold region. The fact that the new M3 has at least 2 turbo's sequentially set up, and a very short plumbing through an water/air intercooler, to me means that it will be significantly better than a 335i in both boost threshold and Lag terms. The major plus with a Turbo is you have a massive torque band. When you undertand the real term of LAG, an NA engine has LAG ALL THE WAY TO REDLINE, at it never has that boosted torque increase. Unfortunately you always seem to get NA or Turbo enthusiasts. It is usually one or the other as a preference. |
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09-29-2012, 06:29 PM | #374 | ||||
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Not quite. The S65 has one of the broadest and flattest torque bands around. With a good turbo you get more torque at low rpms, good from a dig or for pulling stumps but not what makes a car the most exciting nor the most potent at the track. Turbos then generally can not keep up their performance to a very high redline thus their band width suffers. Quote:
Agreed.
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