Vs. 911 GT3

[gonoyaro11]

Of course Gt3

[IEDEI]

Nurburgring lap times are idiotic....

but it's funny how BMW are bragging about this lap time------however the new 911 Carrera S does it in 7:30....pretty much the same as the M4 GTS. What's the point of this GTS again? aside from appealing to delusional BMW fanboys? basically his car has no purpose....it still sounds like a fart....it's really no faster than a low end 911, and costs as much as a high end 911. Oh and it looks terrible....well played BMW!

[dgp]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

Nurburgring lap times are idiotic....

but it's funny how BMW are bragging about this lap time------however the new 911 Carrera S does it in 7:30....pretty much the same as the M4 GTS. What's the point of this GTS again? aside from appealing to delusional BMW fanboys? basically his car has no purpose....it still sounds like a fart....it's really no faster than a low end 911, and costs as much as a high end 911. Oh and it looks terrible....well played BMW!

Funny how Porsche fanboys think 7:30 and 7:28 is almost the same but 7:27 time the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 did and 7:25 991 GT3 is not even close in the same ballpark...

[3er]

M4 GTS = LOL
GT3 = Take my money

[AM4ZING]

Was in Vegas last week for SEMA and had passes to go drive the Ferrari 458 and 991 GT3 around a track... Event was at this place called "Exotics Racing" where you pay to drive exotics around the track

In little to no words, i can describe the GT3 as a TRACK BEAST! For the price nearly in the M4 GTS ballpark, i think you must be the son of BMW if you choose the gts...

Dont even let me get started on the 458... EFING ANIMAL!!

[Bimmer6]

I find these comparisons almost pointless due to most of us on this board will never drive a M car, or Pcar to it's full potential on the track. I use my M4 for a DD, and my GT3 on the track, and kickass mountain runs with the boys while graduating from a Porsche 991S. If I could get an allocation from a GT3 RS at MSRP hands down I would spend 200k because they are selling for 328k now, and thats the reason you don'tt buy a Viper because in 5 years it will be around 30k. You can build a honda to beat some of these super cars on the track, but as you know ownership is worth it if you're a car guy. I could care less what my GT3 or M4 does on the track .......I just drive the crap out of them for my enjoyment. Forgive my rant why what a car cost is really pointless, it's all about the choices we make for our fun. Quote from my grandfather back in 1991 he called me a big fool for buying a Ford mustang for 20,500. Rest his soul if he knew I paid 156k for a GT3 he would shoot me. My point it's all relative buy what you like, and enjoy it. If you can find a 2011 GT3 4.0 it may fetch 400k, and when new it was 185k .....Vipers will not have that return.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by dgp

Funny how Porsche fanboys think 7:30 and 7:28 is almost the same but 7:27 time the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 did and 7:25 991 GT3 is not even close in the same ballpark...

find me ANY GT3 or GT3 RS 4.0 or 991 GT3 owner who gives even a remote crap about the M4 GTS? none.

i'm not a fanboy of any brand......brand loyalty is for the weak!

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

I find these comparisons almost pointless due to most of us on this board will never drive a M car, or Pcar to it's full potential on the track. I use my M4 for a DD, and my GT3 on the track, and kickass mountain runs with the boys while graduating from a Porsche 991S. If I could get an allocation from a GT3 RS at MSRP hands down I would spend 200k because they are selling for 328k now, and thats the reason you don'tt buy a Viper because in 5 years it will be around 30k. You can build a honda to beat some of these super cars on the track, but as you know ownership is worth it if you're a car guy. I could care less what my GT3 or M4 does on the track .......I just drive the crap out of them for my enjoyment. Forgive my rant why what a car cost is really pointless, it's all about the choices we make for our fun. Quote from my grandfather back in 1991 he called me a big fool for buying a Ford mustang for 20,500. Rest his soul if he knew I paid 156k for a GT3 he would shoot me. My point it's all relative buy what you like, and enjoy it. If you can find a 2011 GT3 4.0 it may fetch 400k, and when new it was 185k .....Vipers will not have that return.

Well said!

[dgp]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

find me ANY GT3 or GT3 RS 4.0 or 991 GT3 owner who gives even a remote crap about the M4 GTS? none.

i'm not a fanboy of any brand......brand loyalty is for the weak!

Your post above says how much Porsche guys value brand loyalty Porsche guys used to be guys who loved the GT cars because of the way they performed at the track. Nowadays people will pay over 300K (GT3 RS) for a car just because of its potential investment, not track prowess. A Viper ACR will smoke any GT for a fraction of the price. Arguably the GT3 is a nicer car to live with on an everyday basis than a Viper ACR, but the composition of new GT Porsche buyers has changed from enthusiasts/track people to investment people.

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by dgp

Your post above says how much Porsche guys value brand loyalty Porsche guys used to be guys who loved the GT cars because of the way they performed at the track. Nowadays people will pay over 300K (GT3 RS) for a car just because of its potential investment, not track prowess. A Viper ACR will smoke any GT for a fraction of the price. Arguably the GT3 is a nicer car to live with on an everyday basis than a Viper ACR, but the composition of new GT Porsche buyers has changed from enthusiasts/track people to investment people.

I like all brands and BMW for years, but your not correct on the GT owners 80% of GT cars are tracked. Porsche has the data because of the service that is required on track cars, and they fully support it it breaks unlike BMW. I track my GT3, and not my M cars because BMW will say you launched it too many times are something crazy. I would say your position is true with Ferrari owners. I'm looking for a 458, and it will be a garage queen for sure. A GT3 with battle scars from the track is like a badge of honor. Remeber the guy that pays 328k for a RS may be at the peak, and many owners that I know got theirs at MSRP. The guy that pays 328k could care less about the price he just wants the car, and die hard Porsche guys will wait for the hype to die down or buy used when the guy that paid 328k gets bored. Dealers were selling regular GT3's for 20k to 50k, and I got mine at MSRP. Porsche guys are pretty cheap

[dgp]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

I like all brands and BMW for years, but your not correct on the GT owners 80% of GT cars are tracked. Porsche has the data because of the service that is required on track cars, and they fully support it it breaks unlike BMW. I track my GT3, and not my M cars because BMW will say you launched it too many times are something crazy. I would say your position is true with Ferrari owners. I'm looking for a 458, and it will be a garage queen for sure. A GT3 with battle scars from the track is like a badge of honor. Remeber the guy that pays 328k for a RS may be at the peak, and many owners that I know got theirs at MSRP. The guy that pays 328k could care less about the price he just wants the car, and die hard Porsche guys will wait for the hype to die down or buy used when the guy that paid 328k gets bored. Dealers were selling regular GT3's for 20k to 50k, and I got mine at MSRP. Porsche guys are pretty cheap

I agree on prev gen gt cars(including rs) and current gen gt3 being tracked but lately people are buying the current gen rs for investment purposes and not to track it anymore due to upside potential. Who in their right mind would pay over 300k for a current RS when there are much cheaper and faster cars for track use. Imo, people buying these cars over 300k are buying it and hoping it goes to 400-500k-essentially changing the composition of buyers from prev gen rs cars

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by dgp

I agree on prev gen gt cars(including rs) and current gen gt3 being tracked but lately people are buying the current gen rs for investment purposes and not to track it anymore due to upside potential. Who in their right mind would pay over 300k for a current RS when there are much cheaper and faster cars for track use. Imo, people buying these cars over 300k are buying it and hoping it goes to 400-500k-essentially changing the composition of buyers from prev gen rs cars

Yep, I hear you remember there is low inventory and the owners I know are tracking their cars fully. Many RS owners paid close to 1M for a 918, and they have first rights to purchase any Porsche for MSRP not sure they care about profit when you spend 1M on the car. Possible faster cars, not sure if you have drives a GT3 on a track it's insane. The car has so much grip, and down force it's on a rail with a bullet proof motor on the track. The RS 4.0 600 were made, and many of them were and are tracked. It's not faster than the current GT3 but the car is sick. I'm not a internet car guy(:

[BoosTonian]

One thing we are forgetting is yes the m4 gts can lap the Nurburgring in almost the same time as the gt3-rs..but...can it do it over and over and over?

Remember the 911 turbo s that did launch control 60 times in a row and it did it in the same time every time? Not a single hiccup. Try getting an f8x to do the same...won't happen lol

Although I applaud BMW for creating a fantastic machine in the f8x and an even more fantastic gts, I would spend my money on the gt3 because I know that it will perform every single time.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Yep, I hear you remember there is low inventory and the owners I know are tracking their cars fully. Many RS owners paid close to 1M for a 918, and they have first rights to purchase any Porsche for MSRP not sure they care about profit when you spend 1M on the car. Possible faster cars, not sure if you have drives a GT3 on a track it's insane. The car has so much grip, and down force it's on a rail with a bullet proof motor on the track. The RS 4.0 600 were made, and many of them were and are tracked. It's not faster than the current GT3 but the car is sick. I'm not a internet car guy(:

Porsche gT3' bulletproof?I know of a friend with a 4.0 who is on his 3rd engine and know of at least 2 engine changes on 991 GT3's and this is well after the early recall for replacements.Bullitproof NOT!

[Bimmer6]

Yup .......your right Look at long history acorss the engines which they are raced hard. The recall was because of a bad bolt that failed from a vendor two engines failed, and they replaced all the 2014 vs. doing a cheap fix and changing the bolt. All delayed car owners were put up at the 4 Seasons in ATL, and first to race on the new Porsche test track in ATL. Class act, and well compensated because of the delay. Not sure how many track days your friend has, but I never saw a race car not change an engine. Normal track days one a month you will get 150k out of the motor. I'm going to stop here because my comments are not to debate brands because I drive them all im not a brand whore I drive what I like, and I had 10 BMW since 1999 so I do like the brand. I can launch my GT3 over and over and it done not heat up nor say stop. My M5 two times max, and long term the tranny has to get replaced read the manual same for my M4. I should have clarifed bullet proof ....my bad!!

[///Mpossible]

For me, GT3 hands down! The car just look better, much better in fact, and I have a feeling the GT3 is a much easier car to drive fast with the added grip of the huge rear tires, engine at the back and N/A engine power delivery. Let's not even talk about the sound of the flat 6 at 9000rpm compared to the S55. I personnaly don't see any reason to get the M over the Porsche.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Yup .......your right Look at long history acorss the engines which they are raced hard. The recall was because of a bad bolt that failed from a vendor two engines failed, and they replaced all the 2014 vs. doing a cheap fix and changing the bolt. All delayed car owners were put up at the 4 Seasons in ATL, and first to race on the new Porsche test track in ATL. Class act, and well compensated because of the delay. Not sure how many track days your friend has, but I never saw a race car not change an engine. Normal track days one a month you will get 150k out of the motor. I'm going to stop here because my comments are not to debate brands because I drive them all im not a brand whore I drive what I like, and I had 10 BMW since 1999 so I do like the brand. I can launch my GT3 over and over and it done not heat up nor say stop. My M5 two times max, and long term the tranny has to get replaced read the manual same for my M4. I should have clarifed bullet proof ....my bad!!

The 4.0 L failure is crazy for such a special car.The 1st failure was something coming apart in the intake track & swallowing it.2nd failure was a piston issue which they changed the engine again and so far all is well which the 3rd.The 2 911 GT3 failures were not explained which showed as engine misfires while at the track and were thought to be valvetrain issues.Porsches are not as infallible as the fanboys would make you believe!

[Powerslide]

I've driven the 991 chassis GT3 on the track - totally amazing the way it drove and sounded. But I have to say - I'd go with the M4 GTS because it is way more unique and offers the same performance. Plus the novelty of owning the fastest ever street legal BMW would be totally cool in and of itself, not to mention being produced in far less numbers.

As far as the durability? People have driven the crap out of the S55 on the track - and I've driven it very hard for 22k miles - it pulls just as strong as immediately post-break in - and I've driven it on the track too. That engine is a monster and keeps coming back for more!!

You guys can all have your GT3's - like I said - awesome car - but I'd definitely pick the more unique GTS (and I'd actually drive it too - unless I was a multi-millionare like Jay Leno or Jerry Seinfeld, would never buy a car just to keep it parked)!!!

[Needsdecaf]

Here's my take on all this, for what it's worth.

I'm a Porsche owner, and Rennlist poster. Don't own a 911 or even a GT3, but I have been following the saga of many of the GT3 and GT3 RS owners and potential owners, as well as a few people I know TRYING to get a GT4. Here's the truth:

Porsche is playing games with GT car allocation, and getting away with it. It's very hard to actually be able to get a car, much less spec one. And if you want to see frustration, ask a potential GT car buyer about Paint To Suit (PTS), Porsche's version of Individual paint. It's a total mess right now.

On resale, GT cars are now getting MSRP with up to 10k miles. New cars are going for $10k to $50k over MSRP for the 3's, and $50k to $100k for the RS's, unless you were able to get an allocation a long, long time ago. It's a mess. And it's frustrating a lot of owners and buyers, and more than one are defecting to Ferrari or McLaren. Porsche doesn't get the $$ for the markups, but I guess it helps them with prestige, etc. People WANT these cars.

So having said that, I'm not going to say that a GTS is GT3 money, because a GT3 for $134k does not exist. Most are optioned up to $150k and then there's the premium. Also, I'm not going to say that it's twice a normal M4. Because when you add in all the options, you're comparing it to a $90k M4, not a $64k one.

For me, and I think many people are thinking this but maybe not verbalizing it or maybe even realizing it, is that the M4 GTS simply isn't special enough to be considered worth the money even over a loaded M4. Consider that a base 991.1 Carrera starts in the high 90's, and the afore mentioned GT3 starts in the $130k range. What do you get for that money? You get a different body. Not just a fascia or a wing, but the wide shell Carrera 4 body. You get increased tracks front and rear. You get a completely different suspension derived from the Cup car. You get a completely different engine with a 9,000 RPM redline, and of course more power. You get rear wheel steering. You get bespoke PASM tuning. You get bespoke PDK tuning. You get different steering tuning. You get a lot of stuff.

For the GTS, what do you get? Water injection & some boost tweaks? Some aero bits? And what else? Yes, you get coilovers...but the remainder of the suspension bits are the same. In the GT3, the entire suspension is different, control arms, uprights, etc. A fancier interior minus the rear seats? Doesn't seem like it's nearly as special as to command the price premium.

To me, that's the heart of the problem. It's simply not different enough from the stock M4 to justify the premium. If it had a different suspension, maybe different turbos, lightened conrods, an elevated redline, etc, etc. then yes, I'd say it's worth paying up to $150k for. But you can't simply restrict supply and call it limited edition and expect people to pay just because you are only selling 700 of them. Make no mistake, people will buy them, but to me, It'll never be a special car.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Here's my take on all this, for what it's worth.

I'm a Porsche owner, and Rennlist poster. Don't own a 911 or even a GT3, but I have been following the saga of many of the GT3 and GT3 RS owners and potential owners, as well as a few people I know TRYING to get a GT4. Here's the truth:

Porsche is playing games with GT car allocation, and getting away with it. It's very hard to actually be able to get a car, much less spec one. And if you want to see frustration, ask a potential GT car buyer about Paint To Suit (PTS), Porsche's version of Individual paint. It's a total mess right now.

On resale, GT cars are now getting MSRP with up to 10k miles. New cars are going for $10k to $50k over MSRP for the 3's, and $50k to $100k for the RS's, unless you were able to get an allocation a long, long time ago. It's a mess. And it's frustrating a lot of owners and buyers, and more than one are defecting to Ferrari or McLaren. Porsche doesn't get the $$ for the markups, but I guess it helps them with prestige, etc. People WANT these cars.

So having said that, I'm not going to say that a GTS is GT3 money, because a GT3 for $134k does not exist. Most are optioned up to $150k and then there's the premium. Also, I'm not going to say that it's twice a normal M4. Because when you add in all the options, you're comparing it to a $90k M4, not a $64k one.

For me, and I think many people are thinking this but maybe not verbalizing it or maybe even realizing it, is that the M4 GTS simply isn't special enough to be considered worth the money even over a loaded M4. Consider that a base 991.1 Carrera starts in the high 90's, and the afore mentioned GT3 starts in the $130k range. What do you get for that money? You get a different body. Not just a fascia or a wing, but the wide shell Carrera 4 body. You get increased tracks front and rear. You get a completely different suspension derived from the Cup car. You get a completely different engine with a 9,000 RPM redline, and of course more power. You get rear wheel steering. You get bespoke PASM tuning. You get bespoke PDK tuning. You get different steering tuning. You get a lot of stuff.

For the GTS, what do you get? Water injection & some boost tweaks? Some aero bits? And what else? Yes, you get coilovers...but the remainder of the suspension bits are the same. In the GT3, the entire suspension is different, control arms, uprights, etc. A fancier interior minus the rear seats? Doesn't seem like it's nearly as special as to command the price premium.

To me, that's the heart of the problem. It's simply not different enough from the stock M4 to justify the premium. If it had a different suspension, maybe different turbos, lightened conrods, an elevated redline, etc, etc. then yes, I'd say it's worth paying up to $150k for. But you can't simply restrict supply and call it limited edition and expect people to pay just because you are only selling 700 of them. Make no mistake, people will buy them, but to me, It'll never be a special car.

I understand your points and your perspective (which I think is valid).

However...

As a counterpoint (and which I think is equally as valid) - if a 991 chassis GT3 is that much more "bespoke" over a "base" 991 Carrera (versus an M4 GTS being less "bespoke over a base M4) - take into account that a base 991 should easily outperform a base M4 - given that the 991 is designed ground up as a sport car vs. the M4 - which is based upon a "family" 2-door 4 series.

Now - given that Porsche even further differentiated the GT3 from the "base" 991 than BMW differentiated the M4 GTS from the "base" M4 - the 991 GT3 should have murdered the M4 GTS on the Nordschleife - but instead - it only barely beat it (7:25 vs. 7:28).

I think these factors make the M4 GTS that much more impressive - the M4 starts out from much more "pedestrian" roots than the 991 Carerra - the GT3 then adds even more bespoke components vs. the M4 GTS - and yet it still barely edged out the M4 GTS on the Nordschleife??

All the more reason I'd pick the M4 GTS...

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

I understand your points and your perspective (which I think is valid).

However...

As a counterpoint (and which I think is equally as valid) - if a 991 chassis GT3 is that much more "bespoke" over a "base" 991 Carrera (versus an M4 GTS being less "bespoke over a base M4) - take into account that a base 991 should easily outperform a base M4 - given that the 991 is designed ground up as a sport car vs. the M4 - which is based upon a "family" 2-door 4 series.

Now - given that Porsche even further differentiated the GT3 from the "base" 991 than BMW differentiated the M4 GTS from the "base" M4 - the 991 GT3 should have murdered the M4 GTS on the Nordschleife - but instead - it only barely beat it (7:25 vs. 7:28).

I think these factors make the M4 GTS that much more impressive - the M4 starts out from much more "pedestrian" roots than the 991 Carerra - the GT3 then adds even more bespoke components vs. the M4 GTS - and yet it still barely edged out the M4 GTS on the Nordschleife??

All the more reason I'd pick the M4 GTS...

Lets also not forget that 3 seconds on the ring is still plenty of time.
On top of that the GT3 has been around for several years now, the GTS is brand new. Even going further the GTS is likely making close to 600 hp (assuming ~500 wheel hp) due to how underrated it and the regular m4 is whereas the GT3 is likely making not even 500 crank. So even with at least around 100 hp less and a lot more torque the GT3 is easily faster. Take the GT3 RS which is more comparable due to aero etc and that gap increases to lifetime 8 seconds.
Just for comparison sake, the 991.2S on street tires is only 2 seconds slower than the m4 GTS on cup tires. It also has barely over 400 hp and no aero. Add cup tires and surely it would be able to put up a time sub 7:28 and all for about 100k.

[dgp]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

Lets also not forget that 3 seconds on the ring is still plenty of time.
On top of that the GT3 has been around for several years now, the GTS is brand new. Even going further the GTS is likely making close to 600 hp (assuming ~500 wheel hp) due to how underrated it and the regular m4 is whereas the GT3 is likely making not even 500 crank. So even with at least around 100 hp less and a lot more torque the GT3 is easily faster. Take the GT3 RS which is more comparable due to aero etc and that gap increases to lifetime 8 seconds.
Just for comparison sake, the 991.2S on street tires is only 2 seconds slower than the m4 GTS on cup tires. It also has barely over 400 hp and no aero. Add cup tires and surely it would be able to put up a time sub 7:28 and all for about 100k.

Oh yeah...3 seconds is a huge time when the Porsche is ahead of the BMW, but when you are comparing the Carrera S being 2 seconds slower- it is almost the same time.. or only 2 seconds