6MT or DCT?

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

As I have elaborated previously here, it is all about the point of view.

This is the key portion:

The point of view of the majority of 6MT advocates is focused on the driver's interface with the controls, meaning the H-pattern shifter and the clutch pedal. From that point of view, yes DCT more closely resembles an automatic. My point of view though is focused on the connection between driver and result; the link between the driver's desire and the vehicle's behavior. And from that point of view, DCT is much closer to a "manual" than it is to a traditional "automatic".

Yes. But we're comparing DCT to 6MT. We're not comparing "the driver's desire and the vehicle's behavior". We're comparing DCT to 6MT. Regardless of whether you think it's closer to a manual than a traditional automatic, it's not. It's closer to an automatic.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Yes. But we're comparing DCT to 6MT. We're not comparing "the driver's desire and the vehicle's behavior". We're comparing DCT to 6MT. Regardless of whether you think it's closer to a manual than a traditional automatic, it's not. It's closer to an automatic.

You are confirming my point: as most 6MT advocates, you are focused on the driver's interface with the controls. I am not; I am focused on how the car behaves and performs.

There is nothing wrong with either point of view. They are just different IMO.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You are confirming my point. As most 6MT advocate, you are focused on the driver's interface with the controls. I am not; I am focused on how the car behaves and performs.

There is nothing wrong with either point of view. They are just different IMO.

But is not the core definition of a "manual" is the interface with the controls? As enthusiasts see it the existence of a clutch and gear lever and all the goodness that follows? You're defining "manual" as being able to change gears - which automatics have been able to do for 30 years or more. Automatics have had a D mode, along with 3, 2 and 1 depending on the model for as long as I can remember.

As I said earlier, a vibrator will get your wife off too - and only requires the click of a button. If you want to argue that this is the same as having sex with her, go ahead.

But I think you are REALLY stretching the definition of manual to be how the car behaves and performs. You're now returning into the "It's just like a manual <- IDIOT" territory.

WHY?

Maybe we need a 3rd unrelated term. Don't muddy manual with your automated crap, but don't lump DCT into the "automatic" realm either. But please - do not claim your DCT is just like a manual.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

But is not the core definition of a "manual" is the interface with the controls? As enthusiasts see it the existence of a clutch and gear lever and all the goodness that follows? You're defining "manual" as being able to change gears - which automatics have been able to do for 30 years or more. Automatics have had a D mode, along with 3, 2 and 1 depending on the model for as long as I can remember.

As I said earlier, a vibrator will get your wife off too - and only requires the click of a button. If you want to argue that this is the same as having sex with her, go ahead.

But I think you are REALLY stretching the definition of manual to be how the car behaves and performs. You're now returning into the "It's just like a manual <- IDIOT" territory.

WHY?

Maybe we need a 3rd unrelated term. Don't muddy manual with your automated crap, but don't lump DCT into the "automatic" realm either. But please - do not claim your DCT is just like a manual.

Re-read all my posts. I never said DCT is a manual.

What I did say is that "manuals" are getting more and more automated while "automatics" are getting closer and closer to and sometimes even matching the behaviour of manuals. Read my long dissertation. I don't see "goodness" in having to press a pedal and row gears if does not provide a performance advantage.

Originally Posted by dinonz

But please - do not claim your DCT is just like a manual.

DCT does provide all the performance advantages of a manual. And more.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Re-read all my posts. I never said DCT is a manual.

What I did say is that "manuals" are getting more and more automated while "automatics" are getting closer and closer to and sometimes even matching the behaviour of manuals..

No - not interested in re-reading all your posts. Your definition of "manual" is focused around how the car behaves, and I 100% disagree with that. Manual refers to that gearbox in the middle of the car, nothing more, nothing less.

You are delusional if you think otherwise.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

DCT does provide all the performance advantages of a manual. And more.

Yes - yes it does. But it does not provide the same user experience of a manual, therefore it is not a manual. End of story.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

No - not interested in re-reading all your posts. Your definition of "manual" is focused around how the car behaves, and I 100% disagree with that. Manual refers to that gearbox in the middle of the car, nothing more, nothing less.

You are delusional if you think otherwise.

And you should be more open minded

...again, I never said "the definition of manual is how the car behaves"

Originally Posted by dinonz

...therefore it [DCT] is not a manual.

We agree on that, and was never the point I was debating.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

And you should be more open minded

...again, I never said "the definition of manual is how the car behaves"



We agree on that, and was never the point I was debating.

You are correct - you said "I am focused on how the car behaves and performs."

That's cute - but we're comparing 6MT to DCT... not talking about how it behaves.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

You are correct - you said "I am focused on how the car behaves and performs."

That's cute - but we're comparing 6MT to DCT... not talking about how it behaves.

In this thread, we are comparing/discussing 6MT and DCT as a whole. Not only the presence/absence of a clutch pedal and an H-pattern shifter (even if that is your sole focus ).

How the car behaves and performs with either is an integral part of that comparison/discussion IMO.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

In this thread, we are comparing/discussing 6MT and DCT as a whole. Not only the presence/absence of a clutch pedal and an H-pattern shifter (even if that is your soul focus ).

How the car behaves and performs with either is an integral part of that comparison/discussion IMO.

"you are focused on the driver's interface with the controls. I am not"

You're only focused on how it performs - you already stated that. We're not focused on what you're focused on - so perhaps you're missing the point of the thread?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

"you are focused on the driver's interface with the controls. I am not"

You're only focused on how it performs - you already stated that. We're not focused on what you're focused on

That red "WE" is not all inclusive, is it? It's for the 6MT advocate crowd

Originally Posted by dinonz

- so perhaps you're missing the point of the thread?

The thread title is "6MT or DCT?". My first post in it dates back to 2013. Please tell me what I missed ?

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That red "WE" is not all inclusive, it's the 6MT advocate crowd

The thread title is "6MT or DCT?". Please tell me what I missed ?

6MT = clutch and gear lever
DCT = PlayStation controls

What you missed is it's not about how it "feels to you and all the warm and fuzzies you want to imply from that". What it means is we're comparing REAL manual as in 6MT with clutch and gearbox to DCT. Clutch and gear lever to paddle - not "how it feels like it performs".

You extrapolated the latter to suit your argument, because ... well, I have no fucking idea why.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

6MT = clutch and gear lever
DCT = PlayStation controls

What you missed is it's not about how it "feels to you and all the warm and fuzzies you want to imply from that". What it means is we're comparing REAL manual as in 6MT with clutch and gearbox to DCT. Clutch and gear lever to paddle - not "how it feels like it performs".

You extrapolated the latter to suit your argument, because ... well, I have no fucking idea why.

Again, you are solely focused on the controls, which is your limited view of the difference/similarities between the two transmissions.

And the rabbit is out of that hat with this last post. Calling the DCT "Playstation controls" says a lot...

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Again, you are solely focused on the controls, which is your limited view of the difference between the two transmissions.

A the rabbit is out of that hat with this last post. Calling the DCT "Playstation controls" says a lot...

No - it's not my limited view.

It is the correct view of the difference between 6MT and DCT.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

No - it's not my limited view.

It is the correct view of the difference between 6MT and DCT.

Yes, it is a limited view. There are other reasons for choosing either 6MT or DCT (which IS the discussion point of this thread), not only the presence/absence of a clutch pedal and H-pattern shifter.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Yes, it is a limited view. There other reasons for choosing either 6MT or DCT, not only the presence/absence of a clutch pedal and H-pattern shifter.

No - it's a limited view in your limited opinion.

Thankfully, we're not trying to discuss your limited opinion, unlike you.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

No - it's a limited view in your limited opinion.

Thankfully, we're not trying to discuss your limited opinion, unlike you.

Please tell me where/how my view is "limited" ?

I acknowledge the difference with the controls. You refuse to consider all the other aspects. That is limited.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Please tell me where my opinion is "limited" ?

Right here:

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am not; I am focused on how the car behaves and performs.

Your opinion is limited to the "feeling". You have no concept of the true action of pressing the clutch, changing gears, and releasing the clutch. You have stated very categorically you are not interested in that:

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

as most 6MT advocates, you are focused on the driver's interface with the controls. I am not.

You have very very clearly stated your opinion is limited to how the car behaves and performs, and that is not what a 6MT is all about. You simply do not get it.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Right here:



Your opinion is limited to the "feeling". You have no concept of the true action of pressing the clutch, changing gears, and releasing the clutch. You have stated very categorically you are not interested in that:



You have very very clearly stated your opinion is limited to how the car behaves and performs, and that is not what a 6MT is all about. You simply do not get it.

Focused does not mean limited.

I have been and still am (our 2nd car is a 6MT V8 S4) driving MT vehicles for ~35 years (I learned to drive MT on the farm tractor before I was 10). I tracked MT cars for 15 years. I blip and heel-and-toe without even having to think about it. So I believe I have a very good "concept of pressing the clutch, changing gears, and releasing the clutch". But is it a "must" for me to enjoy a car? No. I rather have the performance instead.

But I can perfectly understand why some folks do want a 6MT to enjoy that aspect of driving. I am not sure why you want to put down DCT drivers though?

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by F83

Yeah but it doesn't look like you've driven an F8X 6MT so with all due respect you know nothing Jon Snow.



Yes of course I am having fun with you. Good manual chops for sure. I have also driven an old tractor in my youth. Good fun but not much that I would transfer from that to a car.

FYI, Sport+ mode on the 6MT (which most 6MT drivers I know drive in) turns off rev matching so it's heel/toe all day long. Or... Left side of foot, right side of foot to be exact but don't get me going on THAT debate!

Oh, but I have! I had the opportunity to drive two identically equipped M4 Coupes, back-to-back, one with a manual, and one with a DCT. My wife and I, and a good friend of ours, Dan T., whose credentials include being our chapter Chief Driving Instructor and who also taught the M Driving School at Nurburgring for 10 years, flogged both cars on the windy, twisty back roads of Rancho Santa Fe for the better part of two hours. I drove the manual first and loved it, felt very similar in operation to my wife's manual 335is Coupe, not quite like my 6MT Z4 M Roadster, which is not nearly as smooth. Then I drove the DCT, and fell in love with it and immediately decided that's what I was getting in my M4. This was the whole point of that test drive anyway, which one did I like better.

As a point of reference, Dan T. preferred the manual and ordered his Long Beach Blue M2 with a manual. He was one of the people in our #CentennialMTour group Euro Delivery (he actually organized most of it over the last two years). My wife said she could choose either one, but thoroughly enjoyed the DCT during our Euro Delivery, including on the track at Nurburgring Nordschleife, Circuit Park Zandvoort, and Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps. BTW, the other M4 in our delivery group had the Competition Package, and he ordered the DCT. Both M3 owners ordered the DCT as well, so there were no manual F8xs in our delivery group.

Also as a point of reference, had I ordered an M2 for our group Euro Delivery, and I was given the choice, I would have chosen a manual for that car. But I recall reading an interview with one of the M4 engineers in which he said that the M4 was designed for the DCT, and that test drive confirmed that for me.

But I'm done with this discussion now, as it has taken on the rabid zealotry of religious extremists, each side trying fanatically to convince the other that their way is "right" and the other way is just plain wrong and quibbling over semantics. Apparently, neither side is able to respect each other's opinions and just let the other side be happy with their choice. They're not going to be happy until they convince everyone on the other side that they must make the same choice. Just like religious fanatics. But hey, if you're all happy, I'm happy. And if you're not happy, don't try to convince me to be unhappy too.

BTW, captainaudio is, by far, the best voice of reason, as he most likely has the most experience with the most number of cars, and he's isn't driven by rabid fanaticism or zealotry. I've "known" him since 2011 on the 3-Series forum on Bimmerfest and I have great respect for his opinions.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Focused does not mean limited.

Oh?

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Again, you are solely focused on the controls, which is your limited view

Please - squirm your way out of that one?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Oh?



Please - squirm your way out of that one?

Well, "solely" does mean limited.

Nothing to squirm out of

[dinonz]

Just pointing out your hiprocacy...

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

each side trying fanatically to convince the other that their way is "right" and the other way is just plain wrong

And then...

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

BTW, captainaudio is, by far, the best voice of reason, as he most likely has the most experience with the most number of cars, and he's isn't driven by rabid fanaticism or zealotry. I've "known" him since 2011 on the 3-Series forum on Bimmerfest and I have great respect for his opinions.

So, you're sick of people trying to force their opinions on others, and then turn around and try to force your opinion that one member is "by far the best voice of reason" based on knowing him for 5 years? Thinking about the number of people on this forum, and the number of years people have been on here, that's arrogant to the extreme.

I'm not saying you're wrong - cap seems pretty knowledgeable - but your delivery is severely flawed.