BMW M3 Competition Pack Faster than M4 GTS on Anglesey Track

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

The GTS still needs a lot more tire IMO. More power isn't much good when you still can't put it to the ground, which is already a weak spot on the base car. It matters a lot less on a high-speed track like the 'Ring, but elsewhere it's a problem. BMW also needs to shift the weight to the rear, but I think it may be a design flaw with the platform.

I still think they should make an AWD M4.

And make it even more nose heavy ?

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

And make it even more nose heavy ?

I think in this case the added weight would be offset by massively increased traction.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

I think in this case the added weight would be offset by massively increased traction.

It would not make it turn any better though.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It would not make it turn any better though.

Define 'better.'

It would allow you to get on the throttle earlier coming out of turns without going sideways. I'd say that would likely be better for lap times.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

Define 'better.'

It would allow you to get on the throttle earlier coming out of turns without going sideways. I'd say that would likely be better for lap times.

With my 305 NT01, I do not really have a problem putting the power down coming out of corners at the track .

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by AustinTrkJunkie

http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/08/09/vi...nglesey-track/

Discuss!

I'm going to take this as absolute proof that the M3 is better than the M4. Thanks!

*puts on flameproof suit*

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

I'm going to take this as absolute proof that the M3 is better than the M4. Thanks!

*puts on flameproof suit*

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

With my 305 NT01, I do not really have a problem putting the power down coming out of corners at the track .

Are you driving an M4 GTS with water injection? That car uses 285 rears as you know, and I said it needed bigger tires...Or AWD.

[SD ///M4]

I've had rides in both an M4 CP and an M4 GTS at Laguna Seca, on the same weekend, during Oktoberfest 2016 in August last year. This was also the same weekend that I had two track days in my non-CP M4. The CP was driven by a BMW CCA and PCA instructor with years of experience instructing in both BMWs and Porsches. Laguna Seca is his home track. His car has camber plates, aftermarket springs (don't remember which ones), and track wheels and tires, and has been completely set up for the track, very similar to my car.

The GTS was driven by Tom Plucinsky, Department Head, BMW Group Product and Technology Communications at BMW of North America, who has years of competition experience. The M4 GTS was stock.

The M4 GTS was much faster and handled much better than the M4 CP. The difference was impressive. That's my actual experience.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

I've had rides in both an M4 CP and an M4 GTS at Laguna Seca, on the same weekend, during Oktoberfest 2016 in August last year. This was also the same weekend that I had two track days in my non-CP M4. The CP was driven by a BMW CCA and PCA instructor with years of experience instructing in both BMWs and Porsches. Laguna Seca is his home track. His car has camber plates, aftermarket springs (don't remember which ones), and track wheels and tires, and has been completely set up for the track, very similar to my car.

The GTS was driven by Tom Plucinsky, Department Head, BMW Group Product and Technology Communications at BMW of North America, who has years of competition experience. The M4 GTS was stock.

The M4 GTS was much faster and handled much better than the M4 CP. The difference was impressive. That's my actual experience.

No doubt. And this video proves that the M3 CP is way better than the M4 GTS.

M4 CP < M4 GTS < M3 CP

*runs like hell*

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by dinonz

No doubt. And this video proves that the M3 CP is way better than the M4 GTS.

M4 CP < M4 GTS < M3 CP

*runs like hell*

I'll know next year when my wife gets her M3 CP...

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

I'll know next year when my wife gets her M3 CP...

I hope she loves it - I know I love mine. But then my progression was 318i -> Z3 2.0 -> 328i -> 335i -> M3

I've not experienced anything better in my life, and I'm happy at that. No, I absolutely do not want to drive a Lotus or Aston Martin or Porsche, only to end up disappointed in my M3. I'm happy, and I don't give a shit if it's not the most amazing car in the world - it's the most amazing car I've ever driven, and that's all that counts.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Well Its not a flopp, M4 GTS Is ca. 140kg more pork than 991 GT3 RS, and yes Its slower as even sport auto point out.(991 RS 1.08.5 vs M4 GTS 1.09.6min at 2.6km hockenheim. )
Now out In real life Its the same. (Not always, as driver related) Mind you this 991 GT3 RS Is not stock as Its on pirelli trofeo R tire and big camber(far from stock)

So here Its 3.1km track and my stock M4 GTS 100% stock post ap. 1 sec slower time. I have yet see any faster 991 GT3 RS here. So out In the real world M4 GTS do well. What happen If I put big camber on M4 GTS car and go pirelli trofeo R compound and also put It lower down to the ground. Well I post faster times or simular.

As a reference M4 GTS Is also much more demanding from the driver to set fast laps, as Its more porkey one need to know what you are doing not to overheat tires. Porsche GT3 RS Is way more easy and less of a challenge on the limit. The superior 991 RS got 90 % of the downforce the 991 cup car got.(Hence easy to go fast) And rear wheel steering and 140kg less, Its no challenge to go fast. Thats the biggest downfall on these new Porsche cars. In the rain 991 RS is like a train and for sure you get more of a challenge In the M4 GTS, wet or dry.

This 991 RS was also om a short 2.3km mickey mouse track wich I also was same day.

Same thing, Its faster. Like 1+ second. It must be, Its ca. 140kg lighter and pirelli trofeo R tires and big negative camber(no stock car)
This RS drive timeattack here on these tracks, Hence Its on agressive camber/tires. Here at this track the pork get to my tires even more and Its my first time on these track In GTS. Still GTS Is no flopp, It just behind like It should be. Like sport auto show, and real would show. A 991 GT3 also timeattack agressive tire and camber (no stock car) did 1.10.9 best lap here. Mind you these guys are here for 3 days, driven here alot.

I just pop by one afternoon with 100% stock M4 bad front tires first time here in car and do 1.11.6. If I put my KW 3 ways suspension lower down and harder, and camber plates with pirelli trofeo R compound a GTS Is far from a flopp on tracks.

Oh, what ever car I drive I post It. No big deal. Its just fun and I always did. Whatever Its Porsche, Bmw Renault or whatever.





All people I know who know anything about trackdriving will agree that when a 1690kg M4 GTS stock (full fuel and driver) do 1.25 laps here It very solid.
Oh, What ever car I drive I post laps of It. But with M4 GTS Its more fun as not many belive a porkey stock Bmw hit 1.25min laps here.

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

GTS = flop no matter how many videos one posts. Wouldn't need to post any videos or defend anything if wasn't true.

[VCP]

Yes big - camber and Trofeo r is where I am heading

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

Well Its not a flopp, M4 GTS Is ca. 140kg more pork than 991 GT3 RS, and yes Its slower as even sport auto point out.(991 RS 1.08.5 vs M4 GTS 1.09.6min at 2.6km hockenheim. )
Now out In real life Its the same. (Not always, as driver related) Mind you this 991 GT3 RS Is not stock as Its on pirelli trofeo R tire and big camber(far from stock)

So here Its 3.1km track and my stock M4 GTS 100% stock post ap. 1 sec slower time. I have yet see any faster 991 GT3 RS here. So out In the real world M4 GTS do well. What happen If I put big camber on M4 GTS car and go pirelli trofeo R compound and also put It lower down to the ground. Well I post faster times or simular.

As a reference M4 GTS Is also much more demanding from the driver to set fast laps, as Its more porkey one need to know what you are doing not to overheat tires. Porsche GT3 RS Is way more easy and less of a challenge on the limit. The superior 991 RS got 90 % of the downforce the 991 cup car got.(Hence easy to go fast) And rear wheel steering and 140kg less, Its no challenge to go fast. Thats the biggest downfall on these new Porsche cars. In the rain 991 RS is like a train and for sure you get more of a challenge In the M4 GTS, wet or dry.

This 991 RS was also om a short 2.3km mickey mouse track wich I also was same day. Same thing, Its faster. Like 1+ second. Here at this track the pork get to my tires even more. Still GTS Is no flopp, It just behind like It should be. Like sport auto show, and real would show.

Oh, what ever car I drive I post It. No big deal. Its just fun and I always did. Whatever Its Porsche, Bmw Renault or whatever.





All people I know who know anything about trackdriving will agree that when a 1690kg M4 GTS stock (full fuel and driver) do 1.25 laps here It very solid.
Oh, What ever car I drive I post laps of It. But with M4 GTS Its more fun as not many belive a porkey stock Bmw hit 1.25min laps here.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

I might go there as well, now I got some stock reference laps to compare. I will easy cut 1++ seconds If on big camber and trofeo R like the Porsches here. But If my gen.2 GT3 show up I might drive that a while☺️

Originally Posted by VCP

Yes big - camber and Trofeo r is where I am heading

[Captain Unknown GT4]

The M4 GTS got no problems what so ever to put Its power down. Not at all, short or long track! Sure Its a bit more alive and more of a challenge on the gripp limit vs the monster downforce GT3 RS. But It gripp and deliver high G:s even If Its slightly on the move rear. Not sliding just slightly slip, Its fast hands on the limit with M4 GTS. It drive like that, fast and grippy and alive. It do not slow It down. Also It got no problems to put power down, you can go very agressive braking from Vmax In to apex and just rotate car and full power 2 gear out and It will not spinn Its tires. I do this again and again plenty short tracks. First lap It will slide on cold Cup tire. Then It instant gripp, but for sure the window is more narrow where full gripp Is at hand than say 991 RS. Hence M4 GTS is more of a challenge on the limit. Just the same way the M3 CSL was, but that maximum gripp level window was even more narrow. Even more of a challenge om Max attack than M4 GTS.

As I see It, the only downfall with M4 GTS Is not so much that It wear out cup 2 outer edge, due to less camber. But due to less camber and the pork, the biggest Issue with GTS Is It lose Its steering precision quit fast (lap times drop when car Is not so keen to turn In) as 5cm in from outer edge you rubb of so much tire pretty fast. This and that lack of camber Is puting tire to a bit of a stress. One need to know things to go fast and plenty laps and to not overheat tire!!

In a GT3 RS you can just go, Anybody go at It and they will due to 140kg less not overheat tire. Thing Is In M4 GTS It will happen If you just drive and do not got experience. This Could be seen as a downfall, to some. Others get It more right but car Is sensitive to tire pressure and Very much Inside tire temp In ways a 140kg less porkey 991 RS Is not this sensitive.


But still for a street car It almost -2 all tires and considering Its pork Its not that bad.

Its not so much a understeery car like the stock GT4, but rather Its pork get to tire and lack of camber It will wear off that section to fast. Still you can go fast but It lacks the precision It got Initaly on new cups. But there Is no problems rear gripp at all. Rather front steering precision grip, still weight transfer Is a way to drive around this. But I would say -3 to -3.2 front and -2.4 rear camber and trofeo tire and this steering Issue Is gone!

But It will Improve on big camber and maybee a harder frame tire?! The other Issu Is you must put In very much steering lock driving this car at track. See my video In slow corner Is alot of steering lock. Porsche GT cars you dont need that much lock. But you get used to It still. Brakes Is super. Even my pads are only slightly left the pedal travel Is high up and Instant brakes. It really handle this pork well. You can really brake late even porky car.

Here I out brake alot of Porsche GT3 cars,

Its on the limit late braking here and car do It all day long still no pads material left(only slightly left, Hence termal load Is big as heat get In to a very worn out pad, Hence all system gets hoter and must deal with It... and Its amazing It do It well considering pork)

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

The GTS still needs a lot more tire IMO. More power isn't much good when you still can't put it to the ground, which is already a weak spot on the base car. It matters a lot less on a high-speed track like the 'Ring, but elsewhere it's a problem. BMW also needs to shift the weight to the rear, but I think it may be a design flaw with the platform.

I still think they should make an AWD M4.

[Captain Unknown GT4]

And this video you can see how porkey GTS take 2 people on mickey mouse track, big instant grip and really short racing line, still with full gripp. You can not drive a M4 CP like this, It cant handle this instant short agressive racingline. Go this agressive hard braking in to a short agressive raceline, M4 CP etc. (M2 etc) will lose grip and can not handle this driving. Not only Is M4 CP way way Of In terms of laptimes. But It can never handle agressive driving like this and still keep Its calm, that M4 CP Would be all over sliding the track If I drive like this with a passanger (extra pork)

3.51min In to video Its more pressure driving vs Nissan GT-R. (He got 625hp tune, toyo R comp, straight pipe and 1 person In car)

M4 GTS 100% stock 2 persons In car

[VCP]

I love reading through the bit of language barrier with you You are absolutely correct with this. I just was at our longer track, 3.1miles, and I had my GC camber plates before but decided not to install them as I wanted to feel the GTS in stock form on this very technical long track. After that first day I was very happy with the car but then knew the only weak areas were camber and tire(possibly just camber would eliminate tire complaint). Although once the ride height and alignment and dampening settings are dialed more tire like Trofeo r will take it to a big level. Can you imagine the braking with Trofeos?!

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

The M4 GTS got no problems what so ever to put Its power down. Not at all, short or long track! Sure Its a bit more alive and more of a challenge on the gripp limit vs the monster downforce GT3 RS. But It gripp and deliver high G:s even If Its slightly on the move rear. Not sliding just slightly slip, Its fast hands on the limit with M4 GTS. It drive like that, fast and grippy and alive. It do not slow It down. Also It got no problems to put power down, you can go very agressive braking from Vmax In to apex and just rotate car and full power 2 gear out and It will not spinn Its tires. I do this again and again plenty short tracks. First lap It will slide on cold Cup tire. Then It instant gripp, but for sure the window is more narrow where full gripp Is at hand than say 991 RS. Hence M4 GTS is more of a challenge on the limit. Just the same way the M3 CSL was, but that maximum gripp level window was even more narrow. Even more of a challenge om Max attack than M4 GTS.

As I see It, the only downfall with M4 GTS Is not so much that It wear out cup 2 outer edge, due to less camber. But due to less camber and the pork, the biggest Issue with GTS Is It lose Its steering precision quit fast (lap times drop when car Is not so keen to turn In) as 5cm in from outer edge you rubb of so much tire pretty fast. This and that lack of camber Is puting tire to a bit of a stress. One need to know things to go fast and plenty laps and to not overheat tire!!

In a GT3 RS you can just go, Anybody go at It and they will due to 140kg less not overheat tire. Thing Is In M4 GTS It will happen If you just drive and do not got experience. This Could be seen as a downfall, to some. Others get It more right but car Is sensitive to tire pressure and Very much Inside tire temp In ways a 140kg less porkey 991 RS Is not this sensitive.


But still for a street car It almost -2 all tires and considering Its pork Its not that bad.

Its not so much a understeery car like the stock GT4, but rather Its pork get to tire and lack of camber It will wear off that section to fast. Still you can go fast but It lacks the precision It got Initaly on new cups. But there Is no problems rear gripp at all. Rather front steering precision grip, still weight transfer Is a way to drive around this. But I would say -3 to -3.2 front and -2.4 rear camber and trofeo tire and this steering Issue Is gone!

But It will Improve on big camber and maybee a harder frame tire?! The other Issu Is you must put In very much steering lock driving this car at track. See my video In slow corner Is alot of steering lock. Porsche GT cars you dont need that much look. But you get used to It still. Brakes Is super. Even my pads are only slightly left the pedal travel Is high up and Instant brakes. It really handle this pork well. You can really brake late even porky car.

Here I out brake alot of Porsche GT3 cars,

Its on the limit late braking here and car do It all day long still no pads material left(only slightly left, Hence termal load Is big as heat get In to a very worn out pad, Hence all system gets hoter and must deal with It... and Its amazing It do It well considering pork)

[Captain Unknown GT4]

Yes, sorry my english Is poor. But I can Image that braking power in trofeo R.

And the way I see It, a stock porkey M4 GTS could accually give many powerfull cars competition In timeattack series. Very competetive If big negative camber and trofeo R tire. If I drop my car maximum down to the ground and go at It with rebound / compression, well If I test It out a bit a GTS do very well vs competition.

In this Class Pro- Street where M4 GTS would be Its allowed 600hp PDK transmission and R comp tire, or 650hp stick shift. These cars are way more power and way lighter than M4 GTS. They are way more easy to drive to a fast lap as you could set the fastest lap at lap 11 or 12. In porkey stock M4 GTS Its only one outlap then must set fast lap. Much more challenge but If you get big camber and trofeo R like the rest It can keep up with many more powerfull car. It not win, but It could If you got the budget for tire and skill.

Other than that, It will get very very high up among them super fast and light cars mentioned.


If there was A 100% stock class to compete vs 991 RS, Mb AMG GT-R, MacLaren, etc etc. I would compete, and adjust and lower my chassie to get low rideheight and more camber, still It would be 100% stock. And It would not at all be bad result In my country vs them others.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

Yes, sorry my english Is poor. But I can Image that braking power in trofeo R.

And the way I see It, a stock porkey M4 GTS could accually give many powerfull cars competition In timeattack series. Very competetive If big negative camber and trofeo R tire. If I drop my car maximum down to the ground and go at It with rebound / compression, well If I test It out a bit a GTS do very well vs competition.

In this Class Pro- Street where M4 GTS would be Its allowed 600hp PDK transmission and R comp tire, or 650hp stick shift. These cars are way more power and way lighter than M4 GTS. They are way more easy to drive to a fast lap as you could set the fastest lap at lap 11 or 12. In porkey stock M4 GTS Its only one outlap then must set fast lap. Much more challenge but If you get big camber and trofeo R like the rest It can keep up with many more powerfull car. It not win, but It could If you got the budget for tire and skill.

Other than that, It will get very very high up among them super fast and light cars mentioned.


If there was A 100% stock class to compete vs 991 RS, Mb AMG GT-R, MacLaren, etc etc. I would compete, and adjust and lower my chassie to get low rideheight and more camber, still It would be 100% stock. And It would not at all be bad result In my country vs them others.

Didn't you say not so long ago that the M4 GTS was JUST PERFECT from the factory and that more tires or more camber would do nothing to improve its performance ?

[VCP]

Please man, just please... Do you not feel that more seat time and getting to know different track layouts may allow you to see where things can be improved? I mean really SMH

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Didn't you say not so long ago that the M4 GTS was JUST PERFECT from the factory and that more tires or more camber would do nothing to improve its performance ?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by VCP

Please man, just please... Do you not feel that more seat time and getting to know different track layouts may allow you to see where things can be improved? I mean really SMH

I am just having fun pulling his leg. Not so long ago he vehemently argued the opposite, even insulting the folks who argued differently to him. Maybe if he had a more open mind then, I would not be nagging him now.