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      09-02-2013, 11:23 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by BNR32 View Post
I don't understand why we're all bickering here , We should be all enthusiastic bmw brought back the real heritage of the straight-six . Don't be disappointed in the future M3 division cars to have hybrid 4 banger with electric motors. This is just a slow gradual progression to the future of the industry which we can clearly see in the new i3 and i8.
Bingo!!

It's just a matter of when - not if....That big, new Ibranch BMW just sprung is going to make its way into M form somehow, someway and probably sooner than many would like..

The banter of 6 vs 8, rasp vs fart, Mt vs DCT???

Peanuts vs the big step-change heading our way like a locomotive
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      09-02-2013, 12:16 PM   #112
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Not sure what folks are referring to as the fart sound. I personally like the subtle off-throttle backfires. BMW must be sacrificing just a little fuel economy to treat us to those.
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      09-02-2013, 01:17 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by tylerwillingham View Post
...The engine alone will carry a significant weight reduction over the outgoing S65...
How do you know this?
The NA V8 was lighter than the NA I6.
Adding turbos, intercoolers and plumbing does not reduce the weight...
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      09-02-2013, 02:20 PM   #114
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Some people have mentioned that the F82 exhaust, etc sounds like a 335is, but a little different. I listened to some clips of a 335is exhaust and it sounded really nice. If it sounds like this I would be fine with the exhaust sound of the new M4.
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      09-02-2013, 03:56 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
We had a 3.2L Inline-6 engine that screamed like a family of chainsaws caught in a fire all the way to 8000RPM.

If everyone "reserved judgement" until they saw, felt, drove, heard, listened, licked, the car in person, we would have nothing to talk about here.

I loved my high-revving I6s with the power curve it brought with it. I love my high-revving V8 with an even higher redline even though it's more exotic and less of a screamer. These are the things I love about all the M3's I've owned.

The new M3 will be different, thats for sure. I, along with many, might like it, love, it or hate it, or might feel that while it's still a good car, the values of the natural M car are no longer there. I really hope not but it's possible.

Either way, the M division is phenomenal. I'm sure the car will be nothing short of amazing, even if it caters to a new crowd and not the high revving, all the power up top junkies like myself.

Here's to hoping the redline hits at least 8k and the power is put down very linear and predictable like past M3s and NOT like 335s.
+1, well said.
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      09-02-2013, 07:13 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackLight View Post
How do you know this?
The NA V8 was lighter than the NA I6.
Adding turbos, intercoolers and plumbing does not reduce the weight...
The S54 was an iron block.
The S65 is an aluminum block which makes it substantially lighter.

If I recall correctly the S65 is roughly 33lbs lighter than the S54 but a lot changed over those years like the decision to use alluminum over a cast block.

Compare the S65 to the N54 in which the N54 is lighter than the S65

N54 Short block weight: 293.215 lbs
(see: http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9.../short_engine/)

S65 Short block weight (the non-discontinued, lighter version): 306.443 lbs
(see: http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9.../short_engine/)

Based on those numbers, the S65 is ~13.29lbs heavier than the N54 and the S65 and N54 are relatively old now. Just think what could be done to shave some extra weight now that 6 years have passed.

I may have over-reached by saying it would be a significant weight difference but at a certain point ever little bit of weight helps.
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      09-02-2013, 08:08 PM   #117
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Sounds very nice!!!
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      09-02-2013, 08:27 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufgtrs2007 View Post
I don't get it. What did we do before we had the S65?! I think it sounds good and I can't wait to see the final performance numbers. I'm waiting to see, hear, and drive it before passing judgement.
QFT
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      09-03-2013, 12:14 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
A 335 is not louder than an the S65 at WOT or idle. How you choose to deal with this truth is completely up to you. The 370z at wot is louder than a 335. Turbocharged cars will always be quieter than an NA counterpart. This isn't rocket science as to why.
I really don't think you understand how loud a 335is is, as I said twice already I had my 335is parked right next to our E90 M3 in the garage and had both cars at the same time. It wasn't even close except for WOT, but I was only responding to a guy who asked about volume and this is such a minor point anyways.
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      09-03-2013, 04:41 PM   #120
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400 lbs of tq, 450 hp, and 3200 lbs weight!! Helloooooo!! Anybody home !!!???

Take all the useless junk out and we may have a 3000 lbs monster.

Make no mistake - EVs are coming, very fast! All these automakers are not prepared to handle Tesla. They are scrambling to catch up. Ferrari's new cars will be hybrids. Porsche the same. NA engines are history.

Enjoy the sounds of petrol engines while you can, whatever they are.
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      09-04-2013, 09:49 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KKM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
Heres the problem i think people do not understand.

Its not that a inline 6 engine sounds bad, its the fact that they put this amazing V8 into the E92. now they are going back to inline 6 engines. Its like they gave us a little taste of a more exotic style of engines (s65, S85).

Sorry i do not want my car to sound like a E46 M3! its not 2002 anymore!

BMW should have did a reworked S65, like how GM did a rework on the LS3 the new LS3 now its called LT1.

AMG talks about doing a 4.0L turbo V8 for next engines.

They are ways to make a V8 still have good MPG!
If there was a way to make a high revving naturally aspirated v8 get good mpg it would have already been done.
Look at the RS4's high revving N/A V8, much better mileage than the S65...direct injection goes a long way...
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      09-04-2013, 10:04 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerwillingham
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
I am not asking for a high revving NA engine. I am saying a nice small turbo V8 would have been a better engine if you ask me.
But if the M3/4 is keeping the weight below that of the e92 and making roughly the same power as the s65 as rumors have indicated then I would have to say that we're getting a better engine with the I6 turbo setup.

The engine alone will carry a significant weight reduction over the outgoing S65. Lower weight + a smaller engine + turbochargers obviously means a quicker and more efficient car.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion on a turbo V8 being a better option based on efficiency alone but what really makes me excited about the possibility of a multi-turbo M3/4 is the aftermarket tuning. It's relatively inexpensive to get an N54 to 400rwhp and if the M division goes all out on this engine as they usually do, I can't see any reason why a 500rwhp+ M3/4 would be all that hard to obtain.

But, I digress. I acknowledge that you are completely entitled to your opinion, I just wanted to throw my opinions into the ring too
I doubt that the S55 will be lighter or even as close to as balanced as the S65 (S65 is shorter with more mass/weight inside of the front wheels).

And.. comparing block weights of an N/A car and turbo car is silly.

It's the peripherals that do the damage; turbos (2+?), a heavy as heck air-to-water intercooler, plumbing, etc... That's where the real damage is done. A 'wet' N54 is much heavier than an S65.

Further, given that this thing will be running a fair amount of boost, I wouldn't be surprised to see an iron block.

Anyway - I'm pumped for this car. It's a fantastic compromise at the hand of very promising technology and cost/volume considerations. It'll be different, after all the S65 and S54 we're extravagant, uncompromising and raw.

Also, to the guy with the 335is that 'screams'... congrats, it's a fantastic BMW...but do yourself a favor and never drive an E46 or E9x M3, you'll wish you spent the extra $5k.

And ignore my sig- my M3 is gone... Shopping for a P-car
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      09-04-2013, 10:17 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riM3 View Post
Look at the RS4's high revving N/A V8, much better mileage than the S65...direct injection goes a long way...
I'll take the decrease in mileage rather than having to get the carbon buildup cleaned out of the intake and tops of valves every 20K miles.
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      09-04-2013, 10:27 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerwillingham View Post
The S54 was an iron block.
The S65 is an aluminum block which makes it substantially lighter.

If I recall correctly the S65 is roughly 33lbs lighter than the S54 but a lot changed over those years like the decision to use alluminum over a cast block.

Compare the S65 to the N54 in which the N54 is lighter than the S65

N54 Short block weight: 293.215 lbs
(see: http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9.../short_engine/)

S65 Short block weight (the non-discontinued, lighter version): 306.443 lbs
(see: http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9.../short_engine/)

Based on those numbers, the S65 is ~13.29lbs heavier than the N54 and the S65 and N54 are relatively old now. Just think what could be done to shave some extra weight now that 6 years have passed.

I may have over-reached by saying it would be a significant weight difference but at a certain point ever little bit of weight helps.
those are short blocks. look at the long blocks, which would include the turbos and all the related plumbing. I would bet moneys that the N54 is heavier.
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      09-06-2013, 10:55 AM   #125
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I am a bit confused as well as to why BMW did not just throw a turbo on a v8 and call it a day. The motors would probably be around the same weight it seems

Ultimately what I am hoping is that BMW did not max this motor out, I would love to be able to throw on some catless down pipes and a chip (or actual dyno tune) and have the car put down an extra 50hp/50tq to the wheels. It would be a huge disappointment to gain only minimal power because the motor is already significantly maxed out stock by BMW.
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      09-06-2013, 01:19 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Race 1 View Post
I am a bit confused as well as to why BMW did not just throw a turbo on a v8 and call it a day. The motors would probably be around the same weight it seems

Ultimately what I am hoping is that BMW did not max this motor out, I would love to be able to throw on some catless down pipes and a chip (or actual dyno tune) and have the car put down an extra 50hp/50tq to the wheels. It would be a huge disappointment to gain only minimal power because the motor is already significantly maxed out stock by BMW.
here's two big reasons (among others):

1. $$$
2. would have been too much power, and would have cannibalized the M5/6's sales and market positions. the lineup wouldn't make sense. same reason as why Porsche holds back on the Cayman
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      09-06-2013, 01:24 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
here's two big reasons (among others):

1. $$$
2. would have been too much power, and would have cannibalized the M5/6's sales and market positions. the lineup wouldn't make sense. same reason as why Porsche holds back on the Cayman
3. It would have been thirstier and politics demands ever higher mpg.
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      09-06-2013, 01:37 PM   #128
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Well, that being said, I hope this motor/tran can handle power and mods nicely! There is nothing better than throwing on a few mods that create significant power but still give off a completely stock appearance and or sound (if you'd like it to be quiet)

My heart still longs for details on the M2. I personally liked the 1M and if the M2 looks nice, and is more powerful, I think it will fit the bill nicely for what I am looking for. Love the e90 sedan M3 but could never justify 60k for one. I love that the new M3's will ONLY come in sedans (I dont consider a M3 vert to be a real sports car :-x) anyway, I really hope the M2 is price accordingly and they make enough of them. Again the M3 just doesn't seem to be worth 60k to me, but I am hoping to hop into a new car (M2!?) if not I will have to settle for a <2011 e90 M3 which is disappointing because they do not make significant power being all motor (i'd just leave the damn thing stock like I did my E46) But maybe the introduction of an only sedan M3 will make the E90's drop a lot in price?
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      09-06-2013, 02:12 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Race 1 View Post
My heart still longs for details on the M2. I personally liked the 1M and if the M2 looks nice, and is more powerful, I think it will fit the bill nicely for what I am looking for. Love the e90 sedan M3 but could never justify 60k for one. I love that the new M3's will ONLY come in sedans (I dont consider a M3 vert to be a real sports car :-x) anyway, I really hope the M2 is price accordingly and they make enough of them. Again the M3 just doesn't seem to be worth 60k to me, but I am hoping to hop into a new car (M2!?) if not I will have to settle for a <2011 e90 M3 which is disappointing because they do not make significant power being all motor (i'd just leave the damn thing stock like I did my E46) But maybe the introduction of an only sedan M3 will make the E90's drop a lot in price?
M2 will be $60k...
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      09-06-2013, 03:43 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minman26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Race 1 View Post
My heart still longs for details on the M2. I personally liked the 1M and if the M2 looks nice, and is more powerful, I think it will fit the bill nicely for what I am looking for. Love the e90 sedan M3 but could never justify 60k for one. I love that the new M3's will ONLY come in sedans (I dont consider a M3 vert to be a real sports car :-x) anyway, I really hope the M2 is price accordingly and they make enough of them. Again the M3 just doesn't seem to be worth 60k to me, but I am hoping to hop into a new car (M2!?) if not I will have to settle for a &lt;2011 e90 M3 which is disappointing because they do not make significant power being all motor (i'd just leave the damn thing stock like I did my E46) But maybe the introduction of an only sedan M3 will make the E90's drop a lot in price?
M2 will be $60k...
This
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      09-14-2013, 12:53 PM   #131
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How can the M2 be 60k? Thats M3 pricing. What will compete with the MB, AUDI, ETC? If the 1M was 47k why wouldn't the M2 be similar in pricing.
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      09-16-2013, 03:20 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Race 1
How can the M2 be 60k? Thats M3 pricing. What will compete with the MB, AUDI, ETC? If the 1M was 47k why wouldn't the M2 be similar in pricing.
A well equipped 1M was in the high to mid 50s... And on a relative basis... From R&T:

CLA45 AMG breaking new ground in small performance sedans, it will likely be the benchmark for the next generation. I say "almost" because with a base price of $48,350 and an expected transaction price closer to $55,000, other manufacturers might not see AMG's latest and greatest as direct competition.

That's for a turbo-4 with a front-drive bias and an interior that got hit by the ugly, plastic stick...

Like 3/4 basis, the 2 series will come at a premium to the 1. The name change was designed to help margins...not make selection easier.

Also, proper 6cyl M-car is worth 60k. Another way to think of it, you're paying E46 money for the modern, better performing equivalent with much better standard equipment.
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