Apex EC-7 275/35/18 Fitment issues with KW H.A.S

[Russell263]

Update 1: Turns out these wheels have no chance of fitting with the KW HAS kit, they may fit with other kW coilovers with a 5mm spacer. Surprised to not see more about this, but if you are searching this set up and have KW H.A.S, the 18x10 et 25 with a 275/35/18 will NOT fit in the front.

Update 2: Changed to Swift Springs and everything fits

Update 3: Changed to JRZ RS2 Coilovers and back to square one. The tire hits the adjuster perch. Running 5mm spacers to get me through the weekend and will experiment with 3mm next week.


So I just received my set of EC7 18x11 et44 Rears with 305/35/18, no issues here.

For the fronts, I went with what I thought was the standard fitment 18x10 et25 with 275/35/18

After mounting I went for a test drive, left the driveway and thought something didn't feel right, but thought maybe it's just not being used to the new set up.

Didn't even get out of the neighborhood and noticed smoking. Stopped and jacked up the car (had car loaded up for the track tomorrow), took the front wheel off and notice that the front tire was rubbing the front spring perch drastically.

I am on KW HAS, but from what I understand, tons of people run the 18x10 et25 square set up on numerous suspension set ups without issues.

I have not read one thing about needing to run spacers in the front unless you are running et33. I see no way you would even be able to run a spacer with the et25 without the wheel poking way too much.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Tires are Toyo R888, brand new set down the drain...

[kitesurfer]

The good news is that it can be fixed with a spacer or smaller tire in the front. I would measure to see what the largest spacer you could fit up front and go from there my guess 10mm. your gonna need the suspension under load to see how the spacers fit...ie put the front wheels on rhino ramps and get under it. you also going to want 3-4mm of clearance. The other option is to go with a shorter front main spring to raise up the spring perch.

[Mandi90TT]

Interesting

[///Machiavelli]

That sucks, especially just before a track event. Hope you can get a replacement in time.

How low do you have the spring? I vaguely recall other people having similar issues with the perch set at its lowest position.

[Russell263]

Originally Posted by ///Machiavelli

That sucks, especially just before a track event. Hope you can get a replacement in time.

How low do you have the spring? I vaguely recall other people having similar issues with the perch set at its lowest position.

Tell me about it, you would not believe the hoops I had to jump through to even get these mounted today due to EAS completely jacking up the shipping and then finding a shop who would mount them in time...

Luckily I can run my RE71s but was hoping to save those for the street.

I am just mind blown that this did not fit after doing tons of research and seeing countless people run this set up without issues.

As for the height, I still have a little over 1/4" left before I am in the lowest position

[JTO24]

From what I remember, the KW HAS requires a 5mm+ spacer in front to clear the wider spring perch. So, I believe your set-up would fit no problems with stock suspension or regular lowering springs; but the HAS will require a small spacer up front to clear.

[x.shell]

Sorry to see a perfectly good set of R888s getting burned like that.

It's been a known issue that KW HAS needs more inner clearance due to the wider perch. In fact, it's not just the KW HAS; several "street" coilovers have this same issue due to the wider perch. In your case, the only way to resolve it is to... use a slimmer wheel/tire set up, raise up the perch to clear the tire, or use a spacer.

Here's a thread with someone with your exact same set up (size wise). He is using a 12mm spacer up front. He says he has no rubbing, but I don't see how that's possible. Essentially his set up is similar to putting a 30mm spacer on a stock wheel. I would imagine that it would rub on the outside.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1175373

[///Machiavelli]

Perhaps a small spacer in combination with camber plates would solve the issue

[larryn]

I use a 12mm spacer with the same Apex/NT01 setup, not because of rubbing (I do not rub without spacers), but because I want maximum width on the car.

[C-Mu]

Originally Posted by larryn

I use a 12mm spacer with the same Apex/NT01 setup, not because of rubbing (I do not rub without spacers), but because I want maximum width on the car.

Do you have the KW HAS setup? Wondering if there will be the same fitment issue with NT01s? If I remember correctly, the extensive test that Apex did on fitting the rears stated that the R888s were slightly wider than other tires of the same size.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by C-Mu

Do you have the KW HAS setup? Wondering if there will be the same fittest issue with NT01s? If I remember correctly, the extensive test that Apex did on fitting the rears stated that the R888s were slightly wider than other tired of the same size.

No, I have the Ground Control setup. The KW HAS kit is known to reduce space. I do not have that issue with the GC kit.

[C-Mu]

I posted this in the track forum but thought this forum was more appropriate.
This news is troubling. The Apex group buy ends in 6 days and I was ready to pull the trigger on a set of track wheels. I'm on a stock suspension for now but planning on going to go with the BMW HAS kit once it's released. I wonder if there will be the same rubbing issue with the BMW kit. OP, how low did you set the ride height? Would raising it up a bit help?

[Al Norton]

I was holding my breath after reading this thread yesterday. I had the Apex 18" 10's and 11's installed yesterday afternoon with NT01's in sizes 275 and 305. Everything went well and clearance is adequate. I have the Dinan spring kit and car is lowered about 1".

I do have a slight interference with full lock turning due to a DYI brake cooling system with 3" hose but I expected that. I had the rubbing problem even with the stock 19" wheels/tires. Strange that it didn't get worse with the new wheels which offset to the inside about 1/2" further than stock.

I have a track event this weekend so that will be the final clearance test as well as seeing how effective the cooling system will be.

[Russell263]

Originally Posted by C-Mu

I posted this in the track forum but thought this forum was more appropriate.
This news is troubling. The Apex group buy ends in 6 days and I was ready to pull the trigger on a set of track wheels. I'm on a stock suspension for now but planning on going to go with the BMW HAS kit once it's released. I wonder if there will be the same rubbing issue with the BMW kit. OP, how low did you set the ride height? Would raising it up a bit help?

Raising would not help, the amount you would have to raise it would negate the fact that you bought springs to lower the car in the first place.

[Expert@ApexWheels]

Russell, pleasure speaking with you on the phone this week, and I wish it was under better circumstances. To review our conversation, the KW line as a whole is known for causing inner clearance issues with aggressive / track oriented wheel & tire fitments, and this transgresses to many BMW models.

To be clear, KW manufactures a fantastic product, and these inner clearance issue's also exist with other manufactures like Bilstein (namely PSS9/10). There are a few reasons why a KW or Bilstein suspension would make contact with your wheels/tires. In both cases, 5mm spacers will alleviate your clearance issue.

KW Variant 1, 2 & 3 / Bilstein PSS9 & PSS10 - These utilize progressive or conical springs which are wide in diameter.

* The studio shot below helps illustrate the progressive spring in relation to a wheel/tire, but please note we have installed a 5mm spacer which creates the proper clearance. Without the spacer, it is clear that the tire would make contact with the spring. Furthermore, the photo does not show the spring compressed under-load.



KW Clubsport - These utilize linear or cylindrical springs, therefore the spring diameter is not the culprit. With that said, the Clubsports incorporate helper springs, which effectively drop the spring perch in a lower location. For maximum wheel/tire clearance, you want the spring perch above the tire. The Clubsport equipped with helper springs drops the spring perch location next to the tire, thus creating a fitment issue.

* I do not have an image within arms reach that illustrates the Clubsport spring perch issue, but I will hunt one down for you guys.

KW HAS kit - These are actually more problematic then the two mentioned above, and as other enthusiasts in this thread have mentioned, depending on the tire size an brand, 5mm spacers may not be sufficient. Utilizing thicker spacers would then result in outer front fender clearance issues, unless you had the ability to dial in an aggressive amount of negative camber. For enthusiasts running the KW HAS kit, our 18x9.5 et22 would be the better application up front, as that wheel will have 9mm of extra inner clearance in comparison to our 18x10 et25.

- Ryan

[Rx7andy]

Originally Posted by Expert@ApexRaceParts

Russell, pleasure speaking with you on the phone this week, and I wish it was under better circumstances. To review our conversation, the KW line as a whole is known for causing inner clearance issues with aggressive / track oriented wheel & tire fitments, and this transgresses to many BMW models.

To be clear, KW manufactures a fantastic product, and these inner clearance issue's also exist with other manufactures like Bilstein (namely PSS9/10). There are a few reasons why a KW or Bilstein suspension would make contact with your wheels/tires. In both cases, 5mm spacers will alleviate your clearance issue.

KW Variant 1, 2 & 3 / Bilstein PSS9 & PSS10 - These utilize progressive or conical springs which are wide in diameter.

* The studio shot below helps illustrate the progressive spring in relation to a wheel/tire, but please note we have installed a 5mm spacer which creates the proper clearance. Without the spacer, it is clear that the tire would make contact with the spring. Furthermore, the photo dos not show the spring compressed under-load.



KW Clubsport - These utilize linear or cylindrical springs, therefore the spring diameter is not the culprit. With that said, the Clubsports incorporate helper springs, which effectively drop the spring perch in a lower location. For maximum wheel/tire clearance, you want the spring perch above the tire. The Clubsport equipped with helper springs drops the spring perch location next to the tire, thus creating a fitment issue.

* I do not have an image within arms reach that illustrates the Clubsport spring perch issue, but I will hunt one down for you guys.

The KW HAS kit is actually more problematic then the two mentioned above, and as other enthusiasts in this thread have mentioned, 5mm spacers will not be sufficient.

- Ryan

So looking at the Damptronic picture at the bottom of this link http://www.bilstein.de/en-uk/news-ev...6-damptronicR/

The 18x10 ET25 front wheel should not rub correct?

[Expert@ApexWheels]

Originally Posted by Rx7andy

So looking at the Damptronic picture at the bottom of this link http://www.bilstein.de/en-uk/news-ev...6-damptronicR/

The 18x10 ET25 front wheel should not rub correct?

The Bilstein damptronic incorporates a helper spring much like the KW Clubsport, thus lowering the spring to an undesirable location next to the tire. We do not have any in-house testing under our belts with the Damptronic, but I would assume 5mm spacers would be needed here as well.

- Ryan

[larryn]

I would caution against 5mm spacers for motorsports activities. You lose a substantial portion of the engineered hubcentric design, meant to position the wheel in place and removing stress to the bolts/studs.

About 10 years ago, I was using 5mm spacers to eliminate rubbing on my car with R-compound tires at autocross, and on a high speed sweeper I sheared through all 5 bolts and threw the tire at speed. I was incredibly lucky that the only damage was a scraped rotor and a demolished wheel, from when the rotor contacted the barrel of the wheel (hard).

Moral of the story... use hubcentric spacers or don't use spacers, for motorsport activities.

[Russell263]

My solution to the problem is to switch to Swift Springs, anyone else running this wheel/tire set up on Swift Spec-R springs? I'm going to swap and test anyway, but curious if anyone else has this set up.
Should be here Thursday and hope to have them installed this week. KW H.A.S will be for sale on Friday.

[mcvaughan]

Originally Posted by Expert@ApexRaceParts

Russell, pleasure speaking with you on the phone this week, and I wish it was under better circumstances. To review our conversation, the KW line as a whole is known for causing inner clearance issues with aggressive / track oriented wheel & tire fitments, and this transgresses to many BMW models.

To be clear, KW manufactures a fantastic product, and these inner clearance issue's also exist with other manufactures like Bilstein (namely PSS9/10). There are a few reasons why a KW or Bilstein suspension would make contact with your wheels/tires. In both cases, 5mm spacers will alleviate your clearance issue.

KW Variant 1, 2 & 3 / Bilstein PSS9 & PSS10 - These utilize progressive or conical springs which are wide in diameter.

* The studio shot below helps illustrate the progressive spring in relation to a wheel/tire, but please note we have installed a 5mm spacer which creates the proper clearance. Without the spacer, it is clear that the tire would make contact with the spring. Furthermore, the photo does not show the spring compressed under-load.



KW Clubsport - These utilize linear or cylindrical springs, therefore the spring diameter is not the culprit. With that said, the Clubsports incorporate helper springs, which effectively drop the spring perch in a lower location. For maximum wheel/tire clearance, you want the spring perch above the tire. The Clubsport equipped with helper springs drops the spring perch location next to the tire, thus creating a fitment issue.

* I do not have an image within arms reach that illustrates the Clubsport spring perch issue, but I will hunt one down for you guys.

The KW HAS kit is actually more problematic then the two mentioned above, and as other enthusiasts in this thread have mentioned, depending on the tire size an brand, 5mm spacers may not be sufficient. Utilizing thicker spacers would then result in outer front fender clearance issues, unless you had the ability to dial in an aggressive amount of negative camber. For enthusiasts running the KW HAS kit, our 18x9.5 et22 would be the better application up front, as that wheel will have 9mm of extra inner clearance in comparison to our 18x10 et25.

- Ryan

I'd appreciate any info you have regarding KW Clubsports and the EC-7 wheel. I just signed up for the group buy, but I will probably back out of it if I have to use a spacer to clear up front.

[Expert@ApexWheels]

Originally Posted by mcvaughan

I'd appreciate any info you have regarding KW Clubsports and the EC-7 wheel. I just signed up for the group buy, but I will probably back out of it if I have to use a spacer to clear up front.

Enthusiasts running KW coilovers (Variant series and Clubsports) can either run 5mm with our EC-7 18x10 et25 wheel, or for a direct fitment you can run our EC-7 18x9.5 et22. The 18x9.5 et22 wheel provides you with 9mm of extra inner clearance over the 18x10 et25.

The 18x9.5 et22 is also a profile 3 concave wheel, and sits almost in the same position (3mm less aggresive) as the 18x10 et25, therefore it is a great option for the front of the F8X M3/M4. The 18x9.5 et22 can be paired with 255, 265 or 275 tires respectively.

- Ryan

[C-Mu]

Originally Posted by Expert@ApexRaceParts

Enthusiasts running KW coilovers (Variant series and Clubsports) can either run 5mm with our EC-7 18x10 et25 wheel, or for a direct fitment you can run our EC-7 18x9.5 et22. The 18x9.5 et22 wheel provides you with 9mm of extra inner clearance over the 18x10 et25.

The 18x9.5 et22 is also a profile 3 concave wheel, and sits almost in the same position (3mm less aggresive) as the 18x10 et25, therefore it is a great option for the front of the F8X M3/M4. The 18x9.5 et22 can be paired with 255, 265 or 275 tires respectively.

- Ryan

Interesting. I know it's only 1/2 inch smaller but will a 275 be happy on a 9.5" wheel? Wondering if it will make a difference in rolling diameter for MDM intervention purposes.