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      06-28-2012, 03:33 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I am sorry if I seemed imprecise, it was my best effort to vulgarize.

All I can say is that throughout my engineering education and career, I have been taught and trained with the notion that energy is an indirectly observed quantity, a mathematical concept. Albeit a very powerful concept, one that allows the simplification of very complex physical models. Energy itself remains elusive, you cannot isolate energy in the real world. As you say, speed, temperature, distance, gravitation, electric charge, force, radiation, pressure, chemical links can all be correlated to energy levels. But what is energy? A very clever man went as far as deducing that even mass itself can be correlated to energy… but this could lead to metaphysical discussions not appropriate for a car forum .

Hence, the same can be said of power, as it is the rate of change of energy.

Torque can be seen as the force component of the Newtonian equations in the angular referential, very real and measurable. And since we are on the topic of semantics and precision of language, I need to point out that torque is NOT "a force acting at a distance". Torque is fundamentally a twisting force, better represented as a pair of equal opposing linear forces acting at a perpendicular distance from each other .

I guess there are many different schools of thought and it’s a free world, so everyone is entitled to believe what they want .
Missed your reply... Because you can't not see or touch something does not really make it less real. Perhaps less tactile but not less real. Calling things like energy or power "mathematical" it a bit belittling to the entire field of physics. I buy "indirectly observable" though.

I do appreciate your point about that "clever man" and yes we are headed there...

You need to replace "component" above with "analogue"! Otherwise that is not correct.

Lastly, I will also staunchly defend my prior definition of torque. It most basic definition is T = r x F, where the letters are vectors and x is the vector cross product. Two forces are very common but are absolutely not required. Even in the cases of rotating machinery such as ICEs, electric motors, turbines, etc. There are always actual linear forces involved which act at a distance to yield a torque. Sometimes there are a few linear forces, sometimes they have couples, sometimes not.

Cheers.
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      07-02-2012, 10:17 AM   #90
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Funny I'm cross shopping the 2013 gt500 and the M3 (if info ever comes out)

I current own a 2004 Cobra and a 2010 335. I am also a member on the SVT forums. Here are my thoughts:

1: While an M3 probably cannot keep up in a straight line with the gt500 I am pretty sure it will take it around the track. The zl1 killed it on the track, with 100 less hp.

2: I was surprised at some of the versus races people have posted the gt500 is not doing as amazing as everyone thought it would do (2nd gear is grinding ALOT on these cars). Launch control is a HUGE factor in its performance. With that said, minimal mods (under $1000 to make 700rwhp) on the gt500 will wake it the F*** up. But if the new m3 is as easily tunable as the 335's I think the M3 could be a threat as well

3: Daily driving. I LOVE driving my 335 daily. I HATE driving my cobra anywhere other than to race it. In stock form the mustangs are tolerable as a DD, but modded...ugh no thank you. However, I have heard the gt500 is much more refined...the interior still looks like it came from the 1980s though.

I am currently looking to replace both my 335 and Cobra with an M3 when it comes out. Love my mustang but need something more refined, while still giving me that acceleration feeling and I think the m3 is the best of both worlds in that aspect.

Just my 2 cents if anyone cares
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      07-04-2012, 04:43 AM   #91
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^ Great to hear from folks who spend more time on other forums. Welcome on board. The forum gets by far the most exciting from the time of the official auto show launch of an M up through the time when the car is on the road a lot but still novel. That period lasted quite a while with the current E90/E92 M3. Stick around!
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      07-04-2012, 09:35 AM   #92
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If they are putting an inline 6 vs an 8 cylinder, the weight will drop automatically.

The deal with the new m3 will be same 0-60 & 1/4 mile time, more hp and way better fuel Economy.

I bet the new m3 gets at least 26 hwy if not 28.
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      07-04-2012, 09:48 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mweisdorfer View Post
If they are putting an inline 6 vs an 8 cylinder, the weight will drop automatically.
Not really ... the S65 V8 is an relativ light engine ... it weights 202kg. Don´t know what the N55 weights (think ~190kg) but with more turbos (3?) and the needed re-inforcement parts it would probably weight not less than the N54 with 195kg ... eventually even more ... so engine weight is no solution.
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      07-04-2012, 11:08 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Not really ... the S65 V8 is an relativ light engine ... it weights 202kg. Don´t know what the N55 weights (think ~190kg) but with more turbos (3?) and the needed re-inforcement parts it would probably weight not less than the N54 with 195kg ... eventually even more ... so engine weight is no solution.
Also the I6 is longer than V8 so it will worsen the weight distribution. A 3.3l V6 would, exceptionally, be the best choice.
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      07-04-2012, 12:06 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Missed your reply... Because you can't not see or touch something does not really make it less real. Perhaps less tactile but not less real. Calling things like energy or power "mathematical" it a bit belittling to the entire field of physics. I buy "indirectly observable" though.

I do appreciate your point about that "clever man" and yes we are headed there...

You need to replace "component" above with "analogue"! Otherwise that is not correct.

Lastly, I will also staunchly defend my prior definition of torque. It most basic definition is T = r x F, where the letters are vectors and x is the vector cross product. Two forces are very common but are absolutely not required. Even in the cases of rotating machinery such as ICEs, electric motors, turbines, etc. There are always actual linear forces involved which act at a distance to yield a torque. Sometimes there are a few linear forces, sometimes they have couples, sometimes not.

Cheers.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the concept of energy. It is only a question of point of view I suppose .

While I agree that a single force acting at distance will generate a torque, it is not a "pure" torque per se. A force acting at a distancecwill also generate a translation force, so you will need more than one reaction force to keep that system in balance. For example, if you apply a force at the free end of an embedded cantilevered beam, two reaction forces are required at the embedded end to keep the system in balance, a torque and a linear force. However, if you apply a torque at one end of a shaft, all you need is an opposing torque applied at the other end to keep the system in balance.

I do see your point of view though, as the foundation of Newtonian physics is based on only three basic "units" (mass, length and time). In the end, everything else could be considered "derived" in some sort of way from these basic units.

Cheers to you too .

Last edited by CanAutM3; 07-16-2012 at 11:42 AM.
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      07-04-2012, 04:48 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mweisdorfer View Post
If they are putting an inline 6 vs an 8 cylinder, the weight will drop automatically.

The deal with the new m3 will be same 0-60 & 1/4 mile time, more hp and way better fuel Economy.

I bet the new m3 gets at least 26 hwy if not 28.
No, no and no.

Sorry but you almost for sure have all three of these incorrect.
  • The engine is by no means a guaranteed weight drop as noted above.
  • The new car will substantially outperform the existing one in pretty much all (if not all) performance metrics, period. It will almost by definition. OK that is a bit too strong of a statement but it will...
  • The fuel economy will improve by about 25% but it will not get to 26-28 highyway. It is still going to be a (relatively) high revving engine with more hp than torque (US units), will not be a featherweight and will have high torque multiplication through gearing. All will keep its efficiency from the best it could be.
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      07-04-2012, 05:16 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
  • The new car will substantially outperform the existing one, period.
"Outperforming" is not everything. The MP4-12C, on paper and in this case also by measurements, "substantially outperforms" the 458 Italia. However the MP4-12C did not win any single comparsion test against the 458 Italia. The same can be said about the C 63 AMG (487 PS) vs. M3 (420 PS). And for my part, this is already the case of M3 E46 vs. M3 E92. The E92 substantially outperforms the E46, but when I have both cars parked side by side this is what happens : My head says M3 E92, my heart says M3 E46. Thought I like to drive the latest cars and the latest versions, my heart lies in the ones of the past. With the M3/M4 F8X I think it will be no different. Just like every iPhone gets better and better so will the M3.
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      07-05-2012, 02:37 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
"Outperforming" is not everything.
...
Completely agree and the 458 vs. MP4-12C is a perfect example. Not that I've got to drive either but I think I can imagine it from what I have read. The 458 just has the feel, sound, looks and perhaps even soul that are missing in the MP4-12C.
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      07-06-2012, 11:24 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04cobra View Post
Funny I'm cross shopping the 2013 gt500 and the M3 (if info ever comes out)

I current own a 2004 Cobra and a 2010 335. I am also a member on the SVT forums. Here are my thoughts:

1: While an M3 probably cannot keep up in a straight line with the gt500 I am pretty sure it will take it around the track. The zl1 killed it on the track, with 100 less hp.

2: I was surprised at some of the versus races people have posted the gt500 is not doing as amazing as everyone thought it would do (2nd gear is grinding ALOT on these cars). Launch control is a HUGE factor in its performance. With that said, minimal mods (under $1000 to make 700rwhp) on the gt500 will wake it the F*** up. But if the new m3 is as easily tunable as the 335's I think the M3 could be a threat as well

3: Daily driving. I LOVE driving my 335 daily. I HATE driving my cobra anywhere other than to race it. In stock form the mustangs are tolerable as a DD, but modded...ugh no thank you. However, I have heard the gt500 is much more refined...the interior still looks like it came from the 1980s though.

I am currently looking to replace both my 335 and Cobra with an M3 when it comes out. Love my mustang but need something more refined, while still giving me that acceleration feeling and I think the m3 is the best of both worlds in that aspect.

Just my 2 cents if anyone cares

Thats some off the wall info there.

The 1st to 2nd grind has on only be documented so far on one car that has 600 miles on it. Others have 2000-4000 miles with no issues and actually tracked them.

The mustang also did not get killed around the track by the ZL1. The mustang beat it on almost every track but one. We are talking about a car with a solid rear axle doing work against a car that has similar suspension to a Ferrari on IRS.

The BMW interior is "nicer" in some models. The M3 is nice, but I will take the GT500 with the suede steering wheel and seats over the 335 or lower model.

I own a 3 series, and I have about 3 others in the family. I also have a 13 GT500 that is being built as the 7/9/12 and you can probably see I am maybe defending it a little bit, but coming from 2004 you can probably see your issue.

Things have changed from 2004 to 2013.
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      07-07-2012, 09:28 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peteypab2133 View Post
Thats some off the wall info there.

The 1st to 2nd grind has on only be documented so far on one car that has 600 miles on it. Others have 2000-4000 miles with no issues and actually tracked them.Many have noticed it, and the issue was around in the 2012s as well

The mustang also did not get killed around the track by the ZL1. The mustang beat it on almost every track but one. We are talking about a car with a solid rear axle doing work against a car that has similar suspension to a Ferrari on IRS. have you read all the gt500 vs zl1 comparisons? Every mag and review says zl1 superior on the track

The BMW interior is "nicer" in some models. The M3 is nice, but I will take the GT500 with the suede steering wheel and seats over the 335 or lower model. I agree with the suede but the rest of the interior sucks..

I own a 3 series, and I have about 3 others in the family. I also have a 13 GT500 that is being built as the 7/9/12 and you can probably see I am maybe defending it a little bit, but coming from 2004 you can probably see your issue.

Things have changed from 2004 to 2013.
See bolded above for my thoughts
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      07-07-2012, 11:39 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04cobra View Post
See bolded above for my thoughts
How the car feels is an opinion. Times are facts. Just because a few editors cannot drive a more powerful car doesn't make the ZL1 superior, it makes it EASIER to drive. The fact is the GT500 is faster around almost every track it was tested against it on. I don't want to go to every site and pull the times, but here is the summary below.


Two of my thoughts.

BTW, the gingerman is one of the tightest tracks and the MRC takes the win..




Here are a link of all the reviews too.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...0-reviews.html

Ohh and just for fun...

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      07-07-2012, 02:43 PM   #102
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^where do you see gingerman? Grattan and Gingerman are two totally different tracks here in michigan. The third being the shitty with no run off waterford hills
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      07-07-2012, 02:59 PM   #103
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^where do you see gingerman? Grattan and Gingerman are two totally different tracks here in michigan. The third being the shitty with no run off waterford hills
Automobile did it, towards the bottom.
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      08-19-2012, 08:51 AM   #104
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Pony Car debate in full swing on the ///M forums... lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by IFX View Post
If they lower weight as thought to be, and have turbos.. The new M "should" be awesome.

That said, i'll have a c63, i won't be worrying about turbo issues with BMW.
Thats my concern... I'm wondering what they'll do to set the new twin turbo ///M apart from the bad reputation the current twin scroll has. They're smart, so I suppose they'll pull it off.

BUT... if they don't... bad things man, bad things.
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      08-19-2012, 11:59 AM   #105
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People seem to be forgetting that modding this upcoming M3 will be easier with the FI, and thus - pushing out bigger numbers shouldn't be an issue.

That being said, and as multiple people have stated before me, the M3 isn't just about numbers and statistics. It's about an overall package with an unrivaled feel of the car. BMW captured the essence of driving pleasure in all their M3's; as long as this feeling is present in the upcoming one, I think they'll be amazing regardless of HP and torque figures, which aren't bad at all mind you (assuming 450 HP with at least 400 lb ft of torque)
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      08-19-2012, 06:04 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullbussa View Post
The 2014+ Mustang is going to be shocking to the world of sports car enthusiasts. With its IRS and (finally) moving away from the very tired retro look, BMW and other companies should be very, very worried.
That's a bold statement of epic proportions and would not only require Ford to pull off a miracle to make a car as refined and balanced as BMW or MB, but would also require a paradigm shift for people to view Ford and MB/BMW in the same light. It would require more than a miracle for Ford to do this in Europe and Asia. I'm looking that the renderings of the '14 Mustang and, if it's any indication, it still screams muscle car, not BMW or MB sales killer.

Very, very worried? I just dont' see it. Not in this or the next generation of buyers.
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      08-20-2012, 06:59 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullbussa View Post
The 2014+ Mustang is going to be shocking to the world of sports car enthusiasts. With its IRS and (finally) moving away from the very tired retro look, BMW and other companies should be very, very worried.

Ford is now a world-class automaker, IMHO.
Ford Mustang isn't even being sold in Europe and in many other parts of the world... It is an American muscle car, and stays in America.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
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      09-02-2012, 10:43 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
I never thought I would say this but I'm not convinced that a 500+ hp car would be more fun to me. I enjoyed the hell out of the '09 C63 I had but that car could light up the back tires so easily. So, the computer has to retard that power so you don't put yourself into a ditch. The higher horsepower is great for better 0-150 mph times but most of us don't do that.
Totally agree, I'd much prefer a 991 CS2 w/ 'only' 400 hp - but so very usable - than a GT500.
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      09-13-2012, 08:57 AM   #109
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LOL

This sounds like the C7 forum. They won't be happy unless the C7 outperforms the C6 Z06 and GT-R out of the gate. Absolutely ridiculous.

I wouldn't worry about the M3. It will be more than competitive in its class.
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      09-17-2012, 07:13 AM   #110
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Personally hoping it has at least 500 but the odds are stacked against it
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