991.2 GT3 - 6MT vs. M3/4

[48Laws]

But Mclaren does have 50 years of racing.

[S65V8]

Originally Posted by Fahrvergnügen

Agree and would add that for it's price point, the GT3 is in a sweet spot for the 'feel' it gives, performance, brand/status, design, motorsports heritage, and specialness. It's f***ing goldilocks!

Many cars (and this is all just my opinion), at any price point, only give you some of the attributes listed above. The Z06 may not have the 'feel', brand, specialness (since I see a couple everyday almost).

Huracan has performance, design, specialness, ... not sure if it's the same type of 'feel' - but lacks in other areas.

M4 GTS, well it's lacking in many places.

Mclaren is probably the closest to the GT3 if someone didn't want the RS version. Mclaren, however, doesn't have the heritage the 911 has and is forced induction. If you don't care about those then i hear its awesome - especially with the carbon tub and all.

Money aside, I'd go McLaren any day of the week (720S!). I like the 570S, but for $180k++, rather go with GT3 with change in my pocket, and shifting my own gears, which none of the cars that come close to the GT3 are offering unfortunately.

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by Fahrvergnügen

Agree and would add that for it's price point, the GT3 is in a sweet spot for the 'feel' it gives, performance, brand/status, design, motorsports heritage, and specialness. It's f***ing goldilocks!

Many cars (and this is all just my opinion), at any price point, only give you some of the attributes listed above. The Z06 may not have the 'feel', brand, specialness (since I see a couple everyday almost).

Huracan has performance, design, specialness, ... not sure if it's the same type of 'feel' - but lacks in other areas.

M4 GTS, well it's lacking in many places.

Mclaren is probably the closest to the GT3 if someone didn't want the RS version. Mclaren, however, doesn't have the heritage the 911 has and is forced induction. If you don't care about those then i hear its awesome - especially with the carbon tub and all.

Absolutely agreed.

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by SROC5

I optioned it out for things I'd want, it's $153k. With the right negotiation, you can get this at MSRP after the initial launch period.

Not to sound like a dick, but good luck with that. Unless you have an "in" with a dealer (e.g. your family has purchased over 30 cars from them, you're friends with their owner, have a 918, etc.), you're going to be waiting a lot longer for MSRP. Go look on Rennlist right now about the threads about lotteries at some dealers.

No matter what, the car is a MY2018 and initial deliveries of PDK won't start until the fall. I'm sure you're aware, that 6-speed is delayed for some time.

In any event, the GTS will be aging (I have no doubt you'll be able to find a new GTS still on a lot, look at the M6 Competitions), but the GTS will be 2 years old by the time the initial people get their GT3's. For someone that doesn't have a dealer connection and this is their first GT car and they are unwilling to pay a markup, the GTS will be well over 3 threes old...

[S65V8]

Originally Posted by nlpamg

Not to sound like a dick, but good luck with that. Unless you have an "in" with a dealer (e.g. your family has purchased over 30 cars from them, you're friends with their owner, have a 918, etc.), you're going to be waiting a lot longer for MSRP. Go look on Rennlist right now about the threads about lotteries at some dealers.

No matter what, the car is a MY2018 and initial deliveries of PDK won't start until the fall. I'm sure you're aware, that 6-speed is delayed for some time.

In any event, the GTS will be aging (I have no doubt you'll be able to find a new GTS still on a lot, look at the M6 Competitions), but the GTS will be 2 years old by the time the initial people get their GT3's. For someone that doesn't have a dealer connection and this is their first GT car and they are unwilling to pay a markup, the GTS will be well over 3 threes old...

Ha, you do sound like one, but it's the forums, pare for the course as usual...dealership GM is a friend, so there's a connection to get a price that isn't insanely marked up.

[See5]

Originally Posted by SROC5

It's the overall package agreed, you cannot get this kind of motorsports inspired car, level of refinement, and that high-rev NA engine for less really. Performance I would also put in there because unlike Z06 that will overheat on the track under duress, the GT3 will keep on smiling (can't finish a race if you don't got the endurance!).

Straight-line, I'm pretty sure this car will be a smidge behind the Z06, on paper already seems like this car is close. I remember the GT3 991.1 being a 11.3 1/4 mile car. It's then feasible that the 997.2 GT3 is sub 11, and close to what the Z06 hits??

FYI GM installed a second radiator(manual only) and revised the supercharger package on the 2017 Z06's. Incidences of overheating on 2017 manual models are very small.

Hopefully the 991.2 GT3 engine stays together longer than the 991.1 GT3 engines. They are still having big problems with premature valvetrain wear taking out engines. The new engine has solid lifters similar to the RSR engine which should allow it handle the 8000+rpm blasts better.

[S65V8]

Originally Posted by See5

FYI GM installed a second radiator(manual only) and revised the supercharger package on the 2017 Z06's. Incidences of overheating on 2017 manual models are very small.

Hopefully the 991.2 GT3 engine stays together longer than the 991.1 GT3 engines. They are still having big problems with premature valvetrain wear taking out engines. The new engine has solid lifters similar to the RSR engine which should allow it handle the 8000+rpm blasts better.

9000 blast! woohoo!

If you go Z06, you got to go ZR1 that's coming out 750hp!

[KevinM]

While I may never buy a GT3, I'm very happy that a MT is at least an option on the new model. Well, I may by a GT3 when I'm older and have time (and money) to track cars. That is where this car belongs.

As an aside, I never thought I'd see "time attack" wheels as OE on a Porsche, much less a GT3...

[Brindle101]

Originally Posted by Fahrvergnügen

Better comparison would be the GTS and the 991.2 GTS

The new GT3 will obliterate the BMW GTS in every aspect.

The 991.1 gt3 obliterates it (I own both so trust me). It's not as close as the ring times suggest. The 991.2 will be even better. I love the GTS but it is not a gt3. The lighter weight, and rear wheel steer make it untouchable at the limit compared to a heavier car with 2 wheel steer.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by Brindle101

The 991.1 gt3 obliterates it (I own both so trust me). It's not as close as the ring times suggest. The 991.2 will be even better. I love the GTS but it is not a gt3. The lighter weight, and rear wheel steer make it untouchable at the limit compared to a heavier car with 2 wheel steer.

You don't even need to go to that length, a 991.2 Carrera S flat out obliterates one with pure ease. And more telling is the fact that the M4 GTS has 80 more hp, 80 lb-ft torque more and runs on a much stickier Michelin Cup 2s vs the summer tires of the 911. Imagine how much faster the 911 would be on those same cup tires? And the kicker is the 911 is cheaper.
The GT3 was 3 years old when the M4 GTS was released and the GTS still couldn't even match a standard GT3 let alone beat one. And the GT3 RS totally was several notches above (VIR Lightning Lap it was almost 6 seconds a lap faster and the GT3 2.5 seconds).

Originally Posted by Fahrvergnügen

Better comparison would be the GTS and the 991.2 GTS

The new GT3 will obliterate the BMW GTS in every aspect.

Given the above; M4 GTS still way off the pace of a 991.2S despite those advantages a 991.2 GTS (from the times we have seen/heard) is still ahead even further.
I really think in the current 911 line up (meaning 2017 models), the best comparison to an M4 GTS is/would be a base 991 on cup tires. That would be incredibly close in lap times.
The new GT3 is going to be a fast or faster than the .1 GT3RS so yes, there will be an ever bigger gap than already exists. I honestly think that once the GT3 goes to turbo motors, it will take another leap in performance even over what it has currently.

[alexey21]

Originally Posted by SROC5

No contest really, but thought I'd post this sweet video here about it. Curious to see how the balloon prices for used 991.1 and 997s will drop in light of this development. For $143k base, I can't think of a car that can touch this for the level of refinement, NA engine, and ability to use it everyday if you so wished (especially with that front axle lift system option).

Discuss!

Hi,

My 2cents... The 997 generation GT3s will not dip in price. They are a different driving experience and different car to the 991 GT cars. Similarly, the 996 prices wont dip either, as they are the only GT car to give the raw feeling of a racecar, and possibly the most mod friendly cars. Each generation of GT3 has something special about it. I wonder how the improved 4.0 engine will do in the reliability department.

[adc]

Obliterates this, obliterates that. You guys are hilarious, as if you could get within 5 or 10 seconds of those lap times.

Anyway, I'd love one of these because it addresses all my complaints about the predecessor: stronger engine like the RS, stick shift, and front axle lift. Meaning I could park this in my carport, have the cake and eat it too.

Even knowing I wouldn't lose much from MSRP over a few years, I still cannot reconcile the financial aspect. The one I very conservatively built was $157k, which is quite a bit more than double of my M3. And if I crash/dent it on track, the value goes down significantly. At this rate, I'm better off sticking with BMW, stock or even heavily modified.

I guess I'm just not in the right wealth bracket for the car, unfortunately.

It will be an amazing car no doubt.

[A418t81]

The standard 140-145k used 991.1 GT3 isn't going to be feeling any pricing pressure from the 991.2 for quite a while. As already stated, the average price tag is going to be somewhere around 160 MSRP, and with the way people are freaking out already, there's likely to be an ADM for quite some time to come. That keeps people looking for the experience without all the freakin' drama, and a better price in the 991.1 range. The 991.2's engine is not "vastly" superior to the 991.1, but it is improved as you would expect.

I'm number two for delivery of the 991.2 GT3 at my dealership which will be early 2018. That puts me in range to drop right into an MT car, as they are nothing but PDK production until at least September of this year. I'm not even thinking about PTS, so I may just have to do Miami blue on this one.

[evanescent03]

I'm pumped about this car. The M3 is a really sweet all-rounder but the GT3 is just a work of art enjoyed by all the senses. If they are just too hard to come by for a newer Porsche guy, I'll probably try to get the .2 GTS. I am also interested to see what they offer for the Cayman GT4 but I was told that the GT4 was even harder to get than a GT3 this past cycle. hopefully that means I can get my hands on a GT3...

I'd probably spec the car with the fixed bucket seats and maybe the front axle lift. PCCB would be a maybe. I don't think PCCB are needed, but I kinda want to experience them on a car at some point.

can't wait to see how these stack up and sure hope it's part of the next best drivers car .. should be a good year for MT.

[Fahrvergnügen]

Originally Posted by adc

Obliterates this, obliterates that. You guys are hilarious, as if you could get within 5 or 10 seconds of those lap times..

Performance is only one area that the GT3 will obliterate the GTS, lol. What about design, sound, depreciation (lack of), motorsport-derived engine, uniqueness, feel/intangibles. Remember, GT3s are not numbers-cars, they are driver's cars that also put up great numbers.

And all the complaining about it being much more expensive when specced out and ADMs... First, I think it's awesome that Porsche allows you to spec the GT3 with so many options to your liking and many happily pay for that uniqueness. The GTS had like 2 options.

Second, just because you are paying more for the GT3 doesn't mean you're losing all that money, it depreciates very slowly and may even appreciate in the very short and long term.

Third, many many people are not paying market price for the GT3, rather MSRP. I'm #1 on the list at my dealer for PDK and paying MSRP. Certain parts of California, seem to be bad about ADMs but that is only California. Dealers are trying to limit selling to flippers because they want their customer to sell the GT3 back to them when upgrading. Quit playing the ADM card to justify anything.

I've had an M4 and the GT3 is more than worth the 2X price.

[Brindle101]

Originally Posted by adc

Obliterates this, obliterates that. You guys are hilarious, as if you could get within 5 or 10 seconds of those lap times.

Anyway, I'd love one of these because it addresses all my complaints about the predecessor: stronger engine like the RS, stick shift, and front axle lift. Meaning I could park this in my carport, have the cake and eat it too.

Even knowing I wouldn't lose much from MSRP over a few years, I still cannot reconcile the financial aspect. The one I very conservatively built was $157k, which is quite a bit more than double of my M3. And if I crash/dent it on track, the value goes down significantly. At this rate, I'm better off sticking with BMW, stock or even heavily modified.

I guess I'm just not in the right wealth bracket for the car, unfortunately.

It will be an amazing car no doubt.

Hey man, I'm not talking "obliterates" based on magazine and reviewers, I'm talking my experience with seat time and owning both cars. If you have driven both and pushed them both a little bit you will see what I mean. Like I said, 4 wheel steer and lighter weight frickin' "obliterates" the heavier 2 wheel steer, matter of fact.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Fahrvergnügen

Performance is only one area that the GT3 will obliterate the GTS, lol. What about design, sound, depreciation (lack of), motorsport-derived engine, uniqueness, feel/intangibles. Remember, GT3s are not numbers-cars, they are driver's cars that also put up great numbers.

And all the complaining about it being much more expensive when specced out and ADMs... First, I think it's awesome that Porsche allows you to spec the GT3 with so many options to your liking and many happily pay for that uniqueness. The GTS had like 2 options.

Second, just because you are paying more for the GT3 doesn't mean you're losing all that money, it depreciates very slowly and may even appreciate in the very short and long term.

Third, many many people are not paying market price for the GT3, rather MSRP. I'm #1 on the list at my dealer for PDK and paying MSRP. Certain parts of California, seem to be bad about ADMs but that is only California. Dealers are trying to limit selling to flippers because they want their customer to sell the GT3 back to them when upgrading. Quit playing the ADM card to justify anything.

I've had an M4 and the GT3 is more than worth the 2X price.

It's only worth it if you can afford it, which it seems I can't. In subjective terms yes, in objective terms no.

Nonetheless, enjoy!

Originally Posted by Brindle101

Hey man, I'm not talking "obliterates" based on magazine and reviewers, I'm talking my experience with seat time and owning both cars. If you have driven both and pushed them both a little bit you will see what I mean. Like I said, 4 wheel steer and lighter weight frickin' "obliterates" the heavier 2 wheel steer, matter of fact.

Well you'd be in the top 0.5% of the population or something who can push a GT3 or an M4 to its limits. I see very few people like that at the track days, and kudos to them.

If you only push a little, you'll be target practice for the Miata and E36 guys.

[Fahrvergnügen]

Originally Posted by adc

Well you'd be in the top 0.5% of the population or something who can push a GT3 or an M4 to its limits. I see very few people like that at the track days, and kudos to them.

If you only push a little, you'll be target practice for the Miata and E36 guys.

I think what he means is that the GT3 is better set up to go fast and let you explore your limits. It gives you more confidence going in and out of turns, it's planted, braking is better, more agile.

It's not always about what the limits of the cars are, but rather which car allows you to extend your limits. And for him and many, many others the GT3 does such a better job at that, period.

[A418t81]

Fahr has a point, no matter how fast the F8x is, or how loud the exhaust or stiff the suspension is, it'll never have the same experience as a GT3. This is very true. I love both of them, but a GTS even if it is faster than a GT3 on some tracks, just lacks everything else about the GT3 that makes it such a sensational machine. There is actual theatre driving one around. The noises are just unbelievable. The car thrums in your hands and feet. The M3 feels like you are using arcade controls in comparison, though the GT3 makes most other cars feel that way as well. This experience is difficult to communicate to others over the internet who haven't owned both, so I get the skepticism, but it is true.

Oh, and Fahr, there are tons of people who will pay ADMs outside of California. I paid a small ADM on my GT3 over a year after they were introduced which was still common-place on popular color and optioned cars, and the .1 didn't seem to be nearly as sought after as the .2 model is looking like so far. I'm also down for one at MSRP. What color are you thinking on yours?

[adc]

Originally Posted by Fahrvergnügen

I think what he means is that the GT3 is better set up to go fast and let you explore your limits. It gives you more confidence going in and out of turns, it's planted, braking is better, more agile.

It's not always about what the limits of the cars are, but rather which car allows you to extend your limits. And for him and many, many others the GT3 does such a better job at that, period.

Somehow I was always under the impression that the GT3 is actually more difficult to extract max performance from, given the limits are so high. By comparison, any BMW is more benign.

The F80 on track tires is a very friendly device, and IMO easier to master the balance. But I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by A418t81

Fahr has a point, no matter how fast the F8x is, or how loud the exhaust or stiff the suspension is, it'll never have the same experience as a GT3. This is very true. I love both of them, but a GTS even if it is faster than a GT3 on some tracks, just lacks everything else about the GT3 that makes it such a sensational machine. There is actual theatre driving one around. The noises are just unbelievable. The car thrums in your hands and feet. The M3 feels like you are using arcade controls in comparison, though the GT3 makes most other cars feel that way as well. This experience is difficult to communicate to others over the internet who haven't owned both, so I get the skepticism, but it is true.

I drove the 991.1 GT3 and I was mostly impressed by the suspension damping, leagues better then the F80. Wasn't even funny how much better it was. But I found the engine too peaky for my taste, and quite frankly a little weak. I'd never consider buying one even if money was no object.

I drove the GT3 RS and that thing blew my mind, the whole package was just exceptional. That is why I think the .2 GT3 will be such a hoot, it takes the most exciting bits from the RS and adds a manual transmission.

Just my opinion of course.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by Fahrvergnügen

Performance is only one area that the GT3 will obliterate the GTS, lol. What about design, sound, depreciation (lack of), motorsport-derived engine, uniqueness, feel/intangibles. Remember, GT3s are not numbers-cars, they are driver's cars that also put up great numbers.

And all the complaining about it being much more expensive when specced out and ADMs... First, I think it's awesome that Porsche allows you to spec the GT3 with so many options to your liking and many happily pay for that uniqueness. The GTS had like 2 options.

Second, just because you are paying more for the GT3 doesn't mean you're losing all that money, it depreciates very slowly and may even appreciate in the very short and long term.

Third, many many people are not paying market price for the GT3, rather MSRP. I'm #1 on the list at my dealer for PDK and paying MSRP. Certain parts of California, seem to be bad about ADMs but that is only California. Dealers are trying to limit selling to flippers because they want their customer to sell the GT3 back to them when upgrading. Quit playing the ADM card to justify anything.

I've had an M4 and the GT3 is more than worth the 2X price.

On top of it all, when the M4 GTS was released the GT3 was already several years old. If you really break down the tracks, yes, it is still pretty damn far off a GT3 and more so the RS. With the new .2 GT3, you can assume it will perform at least as well as a .1 RS.
I do think when you do deep dives into aspects like that glorious engine, the top end, which is unlike anything I've ever been in the way it pulls from 6/7-9k RPMS is unreal. Dive into the suspension tuning, which I don't think anyone but Mclaren can compete with.
As for price, I don't think you can touch what it gives you for the price vs what you have to pay to get a the stuff from Mclaren, Ferrari and Lamborghini that don't drive as well. Porsche does make a very custom car. Not Porsche's fault if you want to add 15k of additional leather or 5k of carbon fiber. The fact that they even offer it should be celebrated because not many manufacturers will go to those lengths to do that stuff.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Fahr has a point, no matter how fast the F8x is, or how loud the exhaust or stiff the suspension is, it'll never have the same experience as a GT3. This is very true. I love both of them, but a GTS even if it is faster than a GT3 on some tracks, just lacks everything else about the GT3 that makes it such a sensational machine. There is actual theatre driving one around. The noises are just unbelievable. The car thrums in your hands and feet. The M3 feels like you are using arcade controls in comparison, though the GT3 makes most other cars feel that way as well. This experience is difficult to communicate to others over the internet who haven't owned both, so I get the skepticism, but it is true.

Oh, and Fahr, there are tons of people who will pay ADMs outside of California. I paid a small ADM on my GT3 over a year after they were introduced which was still common-place on popular color and optioned cars, and the .1 didn't seem to be nearly as sought after as the .2 model is looking like so far. I'm also down for one at MSRP. What color are you thinking on yours?

Agree with you. People who have not own a 911 let alone a GT3 in my opinion don't appreciate that EVERY aspect of the car is thought out. Hell, I even notice how smooth the motors on the seats are vs the clunky operation of the ones in my M4.