Car and Driver: Giulia QV v ATS-V v M3 ZCP v C63S

[VeloF1]

Originally Posted by doberzus

Having owned both ZCP and non-ZCP, I'd say ZCP is garbage. Don't get it, my car has been so harsh my teeth are about to fall out from the horrid ride. Plus the non-ZCP will always be faster and better. Plus those ugly 20" ricer bling wheels and that ricey popping exhaust. Wish I would have kept my non-ZCP, what a mistake

The wheels do seem out of place on the ZCP. 20" and a bit unsightly. A new 19" wheel seemed in order. Keep weight down, right?

[mc3456]

The Alfa is a pretty appealing package, partly because it's new and different. However, objectively, as much as I am intrigued by the emotional aspect of the car, I keep coming back to how much more my existing F80 offers. It's hard to fathom that my 2015 car can still be more technologically advanced than a 2018 Alfa model. I'm really curious to know if the Alfa would still be as impressive of a handler with the same Michelin PSS tires vs the Alfa's Pirelli Corsa R tires.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by doberzus

Having owned both ZCP and non-ZCP, I'd say ZCP is garbage. Don't get it, my car has been so harsh my teeth are about to fall out from the horrid ride. Plus the non-ZCP will always be faster and better. Plus those ugly 20" ricer bling wheels and that ricey popping exhaust. Wish I would have kept my non-ZCP, what a mistake

Lol, you guys crack me up whinning about ZCP being harsh. Obviously, never driven a real sports car. I leave my ZCP in sports + 100% of the time and still feel super compliant and comfy. Even my girlie, girl wife thinks it rides comfy, but then again she has and drives a real sports car for weekend fun. You thinking it rides harsh totally explains why you don't like the wheels or the exhaust. The M3 is actually pretty bland, boring family trucksterish without the 20s, a loud color and the ZCP exhaust. The 20s are awesome.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Lol, you guys crack me up whinning about ZCP being harsh. Obviously, never driven a real sports car. I leave my ZCP in sports + 100% of the time and still feel super compliant and comfy. Even my girlie, girl wife thinks it rides comfy, but then again she has and drives a real sports car for weekend fun. You thinking it rides harsh totally explains why you don't like the wheels or the exhaust. The M3 is actually pretty bland, boring family trucksterish without the 20s, a loud color and the ZCP exhaust. The 20s are awesome.

I notice that you're in sunny Florida, where there's a headline if the temperature gets to 32 degrees.

Trust me, in and around Detroit (or Ann Arbor), the roads tend to look like the beach at Anzio right after the shelling, and taking a road trip around there in a stiffly sprung car would be roughly equivalent to being in an all-day plane crash.

Bruce

[VeloF1]

Originally Posted by mc3456

The Alfa is a pretty appealing package, partly because it's new and different. However, objectively, as much as I am intrigue by the emotional aspect of the car, I keep coming back to how much more my existing F80 offers. It's hard to fathom that a 2015 car can be more technologically advanced than a 2018 model. I'm really curious to know if the Alfa would still be as impressive of a handler with the same Michelin PSS tires vs the Alfa's Pirelli Corsa R tires.

My rating of this review is 7 stars out of 10. I don't see it the same. I did an hour spirited test drive in the Alfa--acceleration, cornering both low speed and high speed, braking, etc. They asked me to keep traction control on. Yet within 10 minutes I turned all it all off--and the boundaries of the car where explored. The tires are quite sticky compared to the M4 MPSS obviously. If the cars had same tires--I'd wager the BMW would be just as fast on the track, maybe faster. The Alfa's overall feel on the road was very close to the BMW. If the 0-60 mph is faster in the Alfa --- it's not really detectable (I have a Turbo S--that's clearly faster). The Alfa run to redline is faster--8 speed--maybe I was more use to DCT 7 speed which I preferred. The interior and instrumental controls in the BMW are more refined with more options--I prefer over Alfa.. Braking and steering very good--I call it a wash. I liked the exterior of the Alfa. My spousal unit who was raised in Bavaria--prefers the M4 appearance. Regarding overall reliability--it's the Alfa first year (and delayed at that); plus, Italian (I love most things Italian)--hence, i imagine one would make more frequent visits to the Alfa shop. I prefer the Alfa to the C63s.

[doberzus]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Lol, you guys crack me up whinning about ZCP being harsh. Obviously, never driven a real sports car. I leave my ZCP in sports + 100% of the time and still feel super compliant and comfy. Even my girlie, girl wife thinks it rides comfy, but then again she has and drives a real sports car for weekend fun. You thinking it rides harsh totally explains why you don't like the wheels or the exhaust. The M3 is actually pretty bland, boring family trucksterish without the 20s, a loud color and the ZCP exhaust. The 20s are awesome.

My trolling flew over everyone's head...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by VeloF1

If the cars had same tires--I'd wager the BMW would be just as fast on the track, maybe faster.

That's the thing, the M3/4 is already just as fast around a track DESPITE the tires .

[MaX PL]

Originally Posted by VeloF1

The wheels do seem out of place on the ZCP. 20" and a bit unsightly. A new 19" wheel seemed in order. Keep weight down, right?

The ZCP should have came with those new M Performance wheels coming out later this year.

I think theyre offered in both 19 and 20 sizes and look more like track wheels.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I notice that you're in sunny Florida, where there's a headline if the temperature gets to 32 degrees.

Trust me, in and around Detroit (or Ann Arbor), the roads tend to look like the beach at Anzio right after the shelling, and taking a road trip around there in a stiffly sprung car would be roughly equivalent to being in an all-day plane crash.

Bruce

My M3 is in Nashville and I know of guys that drive real sports cars up North and don't complain about the suspension being to tight.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by doberzus

My trolling flew over everyone's head...

Lol!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MaX PL

The ZCP should have came with those new M Performance wheels coming out later this year.

I think theyre offered in both 19 and 20 sizes and look more like track wheels.

I have a hunch those are the wheels the CS will come with .

My understanding is that they wont be offered with a choice of 19" or 20", but rather as staggered 19" front and 20" rear. IMO, those wont be optimal track wheels though, as I'd rather go with much wider wheels for the track.

[AW BMW]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That's the thing, the M3/4 is already just as fast around a track DESPITE the tires .

After seeing how the Alfa does against the M3 ZCP in some of these reviews on stickier tires, would you say the video of the Alfa running the ring at that crazy time last year reflects the performance being seen now from the Alfa? I'm not that knowledgeable on track performance , but it seems like a production Alfa even driven by the same factory driver from that ring video wouldn't be able to reproduce that time.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AW BMW

After seeing how the Alfa does against the M3 ZCP in some of these reviews on stickier tires, would you say the video of the Alfa running the ring at that crazy time last year reflects the performance being seen now from the Alfa? I'm not that knowledgeable on track performance , but it seems like a production Alfa even driven by the same factory driver from that ring video wouldn't be able to reproduce that time.

The Alfa even posted slower times than a non-CP M3/4 in some reviews. So it is not only about the CP.

[AW BMW]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The Alfa even posted slower times than a non-CP M3/4 in some reviews. So it is not only about the CP.

I guess my real question to you, since I see you have a lot of knowledge on track performance from your years of tracking your vehicles is--- in your opinion, do you think Alfa cheated to get the 7:39 time at ring? Specially after hearing all the rumors flying around about hand cut slicks being ran and some other things being done to make that car run that kind of ring time. Because it doesn't seem like a production Alfa would be able to hit a 7:39 ring time by watching these reviews. I don't particularly like the look of the Alfa, I prefer the look of the m3/4, but the Alfa is still interesting to look at performance wise since its something new and prefer it over the ATS-v and c63s.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AW BMW

I guess my real question to you, since I see you have a lot of knowledge on track performance from your years of tracking your vehicles is--- in your opinion, do you think Alfa cheated to get the 7:39 time at ring? Specially after hearing all the rumors flying around about hand cut slicks being ran and some other things being done to make that car run that kind of ring time. Because it doesn't seem like a production Alfa would be able to hit a 7:39 ring time by watching these reviews. I don't particularly like the look of the Alfa, I prefer the look of the m3/4, but the Alfa is still interesting to look at performance wise since its something new and prefer it over the ATS-v and c63s.

That 7:39 definitely is at odds with other track times of a stock Giulia-Q as compared to the M3/4. Anything beyond that is just speculations.

[3_Pedals]

In fairness to Car & Driver, it can be difficult to score these cars when priorities vary from person to person, probably even among their writing staff.

I agree with the others here who said more competition is welcome and will hopefully push the M3 to even greater heights. The Alfa is off my list unless they start offering a third pedal, but it looks like Marchionne was serious when he said they would not release the delayed Giulia until it was "on par with the Germans."

It would be helpful for the reviewers to comment on handling behavior near the limit because this is difficult to judge in a normal dealership test drive. When the rear end starts to come around a bit, I've found that some cars are much more predictable and well-behaved than others. And I relish a brief, easily controlled slide from time to time.

Interesting that the M3 has the least power of the group but the also the least weight, widest tires, biggest brakes, and biggest change in volume between idle and full throttle.

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

these reviews are all over the place.

honestly, if i were to do it all over again, I would get the m3 again.

dct, lightweight, lowest depreciation, practical trunk and back seat, and I still look at it like I did 2.5 years ago.

I can't say the same about the other cars I have owned, except for the E46.

Personally, I love the look of the car, but as I research it further, it keeps falling short in SO many ways. Just a few that I have seen so far:

-no LED headlights available
-non-folding rear seats
-short-lived R Compound tires
-lower quality interior materials, especially lower dash
-no free scheduled maintenance
-worse Nav/Media interface
-horrible lease rates due to awful residual (arbiter of re-sale value)
-pencil thin steering wheel, and few steering wheel controls
-horrible dealer network. Bringing $80K into a Fiat dealership for service!!
-HUGE ONE: Immature, limited aftermarket parts. No modding fun! :-o

[AustinTrkJunkie]

Seems BMW NA forgot to offer up the proper tribute to C&D, so their review speaks to that. Pay to play (or have + reviews)

Couple of quick observations

1) This is my daily and it's fine around town in Comfort and Sport, C&D is full of you know what in that regard.

2) C&D previously stated the F80 was too tame and quiet, now it's too loud and stiff?

Hit piece, IMHO

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I notice that you're in sunny Florida, where there's a headline if the temperature gets to 32 degrees.

Trust me, in and around Detroit (or Ann Arbor), the roads tend to look like the beach at Anzio right after the shelling, and taking a road trip around there in a stiffly sprung car would be roughly equivalent to being in an all-day plane crash.

Bruce

I've never driven a ZCP - but driving around Chicago (city and suburbs) I drive my "civic" M3 in Sport+ suspension all the time and love it. I don't think it is harsh at all (although what feels "harsh" to a given person is relative and purely subjective). It seems per the reviews that Sport + on the non-ZCP is roughly equivalent to Sport on the ZCP. Assuming this is true, and by extrapolation, I cannot imagine ZCP is that "harsh".

I also remember some review from 2015 or 2016 (before ZCP was released) describing the M3/M4 ride as "bone-jarring" - and I remember thinking to myself that it wasn't even close to bone-jarring even in Sport +.

Bottom line - you have to be your own judge about ride and many other aspects of any car... Personally, I think I'd love the ZCP even more than my civic M3...

[Greer]

I would not buy the first year Alfa.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That 7:39 definitely is at odds with other track times of a stock Giulia-Q as compared to the M3/4. Anything beyond that is just speculations.

Sport Auto doesn't seem to believe it, for one. Though the one SA tested was a 6MT, but they were able to drive the C63 S quicker on the Hockenheim track, so they are having a hard time believing the Alfa can do 7:39 (for manual) and 7:32 (for auto).

Factory can say the car is stock, but the fact is you never know, so yeah, we can only speculate.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

My M3 is in Nashville and I know of guys that drive real sports cars up North and don't complain about the suspension being to tight.

You know of guys?

Jesus.

Look, Car & Driver is writing for perhaps a million folks who read their stuff, and they're doing a comparison test.

In that context, they liked the Bimmer's handling, but didn't like the fact that the ride was so stiff - in comparison to the other cars tested on the same roads on the same days.

Capiche?

The fact that you're OK with your car's ride is simply immaterial - and in fact maybe you'd change your mind if you were present at that comparison test - and of course assuming you're not a fanboy.

As an aside, I personally love these types of comparison tests. You get to look at their scoring and pick your own winner based on whatever categories are most important to you.