Pandora Car Alarm System
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-15-2014, 11:03 AM   #89
yousefnjr
salty cowboys fan
yousefnjr's Avatar
6112
Rep
3,392
Posts

Drives: ‘06 Z4MR, ‘20 X7, ‘22 M4x
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel
...we have seen what AWD does for the GTR, so a good system can overcome its weight penalty and then some, or so it appears.
+100

911 turbo does it pretty damn well too, no excuses BMW! If you can target niche markets with great specificity (looking at you, x1 m-sport diesel) you can offer the option of AWD on your most important car I'd say.
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:11 AM   #90
hwelvaar
Major
Belgium
112
Rep
1,140
Posts

Drives: BMW M135i MT
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M235i View Post
■ Automatic rev matching on the manual transmission is disabled in Sport+ mode. It's active in the Sport and Comfort modes.

Why not let people choose when they want this option to be enabled / disabled ?

What if I never want auto rev match ?
What if I want auto rev match even when I'm on the track ?
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:18 AM   #91
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
205
Rep
7,298
Posts

Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

Can anyone explain the difference between manufacturers ring times or config of the ring they drive vs BTG?

Or are they the same?
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:23 AM   #92
hwelvaar
Major
Belgium
112
Rep
1,140
Posts

Drives: BMW M135i MT
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer View Post
The current generation took the 4.9s 0-60 time to 4.1s
Whut ?
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:38 AM   #93
Needsdecaf
Major General
Needsdecaf's Avatar
6359
Rep
6,569
Posts

Drives: 2024 G80 Comp xDrive
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
+100

911 turbo does it pretty damn well too, no excuses BMW! If you can target niche markets with great specificity (looking at you, x1 m-sport diesel) you can offer the option of AWD on your most important car I'd say.
And the rap on those two cars is that they are digital, and aloof to drive. Fast, but point and shoot, not fun.

In the M5, which is already a fatty, sure.

In the M3...not the mission of these cars.

Listen, the Ferrari F12 puts down over 700 freaking HP through RWD and no one complains about traction in that car. In fact, they say it's spooky how well you can get it hooked up. So if BMW is going to spend $$, do it on trick diffs and electronics that'll put the power down without corrupting steering.
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:40 AM   #94
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer View Post
Nobody is denying it is faster. I think we are just saying the improvements over the current car are marginal or in other words not as much as they were in the last generation.

You need to remember the old E46 M3 didnt even have navigation or half the features the current M3 did. Not only the current M3 was a massive improvement in the performance arena with a major improvement in all aspects, it also had lots of new features.

Fast forward 8 years now and I dont see the same improvements. The cars dont look vastly different from a feature perspective. The idrive is the same, nav is same, leather material is same , stiching is same, edc is same, dct is same, list goes on and on, there are just way too many same things. When people looked at the E92 after E46, they saw a totally different car that not only had improvements but also had new innovative features. BMW invented new technologies from ground up, they didnt just replace metal with carbon fiber and called it a new feature.

Of course the new car will be faster, how could it not be? But do you honestly think this car is going to drive, look, and feel lightyears ahead of the current car? There is not a single feature in it that makes me want to sell my car, maybe the HUD, but thats it. Nothing really attracts me and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

I am going to drop 80-90k for a new car. Its not like I have this syndrome of not letting my M3 go, I just dont think this car is worth the difference.

Look at the new Z06, now thats a car that screams new features and innovation. GM built the engine, transmission, suspension, aero, and interior from ground up. They made a brand new car. Do you see and understand the difference?
Some new features on the F8x vs E9x:

-Torque vectoring diff
-HUD
-CFRP driveshaft
-CCB brakes optional
-Direct injection
-EPS

Performance (manual transmission model):
-4,3s 0-100km/h vs 4,8s for E92 MT6 vs 5,1s for E46 MT6
(a larger improvement for F82 vs E92 than there was from E46 to E92...)

-80-120km/h in 4th/5th in 3,5s/4,2s, vs 4,9s/6s for the E92 and 5,3s (4th gear) for the E46
(a larger improvement for F82 vs E92 than there was from E46 to E92...)

-22,2s for the 0-1000m distance vs 23,5s for E92 vs 23,7s(?) for E46
(a larger improvement for F82 vs E92 than there was from E46 to E92...)

Source for E92 M3 spec:
http://www.m3forum.com/pressrelease/...w_m3_gb_fv.pdf
+ Euro brochure

So, it seems the leap in performance is even bigger this time, and in some disciplines, significantly so...

BTW. The E46 did a 8:22s Nurburgring lap time, the E92 did a 8:05s time, both driven by the same driver (Horst von Saurma from Sport Auto). BMW claims the F8x is at least 10s quicker than the E92, so at least a 7:55 time (by the same test criteria as above).

Improving the time from 8:22 to 8:05 equals a 3,4% improvement

Improving the time from 8:05 to 7:55 equals a 2,1% improvement

So, E92 vs E46 was a bit better if we assume "just" 10s improvement. To get the same improvement (in %) the F8x lap time would need to be 16s faster than the E92.


Quote:
Fast forward 8 years now and I dont see the same improvements. The cars dont look vastly different from a feature perspective. The idrive is the same, nav is same, leather material is same , stiching is same, edc is same, dct is same, list goes on and on, there are just way too many same things. When people looked at the E92 after E46, they saw a totally different car that not only had improvements but also had new innovative features. BMW invented new technologies from ground up, they didnt just replace metal with carbon fiber and called it a new feature.
Care to elaborate on what in your above statement is so different this time? Just as the E46 M3 was based on a std E46, the E9x was based on the std E9x and the F8x is based on the F3x. Nothing to do with the M3 that the E9x got iDrive, nav etc. The M3 got that because the E9x also had it... DCT because Getrag developed it...

What technologies did BMW develop from the ground up just for the E9x M3?

Quote:
Look at the new Z06, now thats a car that screams new features and innovation. GM built the engine, transmission, suspension, aero, and interior from ground up. They made a brand new car. Do you see and understand the difference?
BMW also builds the engine, interior suspension, aero and interior from the ground up as you say... The difference is that the Corvette is a model line that isn't based on a big volume base model, so more parts are unique just for that car, like the interior, even though switchgear etc are used in other models as well... And the Z06 uses many of the same components as the "std" C7.

Last edited by Boss330; 01-15-2014 at 01:16 PM.. Reason: Added Nurburgring times and analysis
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:43 AM   #95
AlexN
Lieutenant
172
Rep
543
Posts

Drives: 2018 SMB M3CS
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Miami

iTrader: (7)

What is the missing word in this sentence?

Quote:
Over an entire life cycle, the M3 is number in its segment, the M5 is number one in its segment and the X5 M and X6 M are the most successful cars in their segment.
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:44 AM   #96
tallshortguy
First Lieutenant
64
Rep
386
Posts

Drives: F30 328i
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
Whut ?
He's fudging figures to fit his narrative. e90 had something like 4.5-4.7 bmw released times when it came out. Some magazines got 4.1. That's compared to factory released time of 3.9 for the new m3/m4, so it's the same interval of improvement between the e46 to e90 as it is from the e90 to f8x.

At this point he's coming up with excuses to try and, I assume, make himself feel better about his car. Why he feels the need to bring his non-fact based conjecture to here, a board for cars he doesn't and apparently will never own (based on his thoughts on them before release even), is certainly an interesting question.
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:47 AM   #97
solstice
Major General
5457
Rep
7,037
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexN View Post
What is the missing word in this sentence?
Maybe it's something Nietzsche picked up cruising in Detroit. Something "street". Bro, that car is NUMBER!
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:50 AM   #98
Black Gold
Major General
590
Rep
5,396
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Texas

iTrader: (15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tallshortguy View Post
He's fudging figures to fit his narrative. e90 had something like 4.5-4.7 bmw released times when it came out. Some magazines got 4.1. That's compared to factory released time of 3.9 for the new m3/m4, so it's the same interval of improvement between the e46 to e90 as it is from the e90 to f8x.

At this point he's coming up with excuses to try and, I assume, make himself feel better about his car. Why he feels the need to bring his non-fact based conjecture to here, a board for cars he doesn't and apparently will never own (based on his thoughts on them before release even), is certainly an interesting question.
alllllll of this

__________________
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:51 AM   #99
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tallshortguy View Post
He's fudging figures to fit his narrative. e90 had something like 4.5-4.7 bmw released times when it came out. Some magazines got 4.1. That's compared to factory released time of 3.9 for the new m3/m4, so it's the same interval of improvement between the e46 to e90 as it is from the e90 to f8x.

At this point he's coming up with excuses to try and, I assume, make himself feel better about his car. Why he feels the need to bring his non-fact based conjecture to here, a board for cars he doesn't and apparently will never own (based on his thoughts on them before release even), is certainly an interesting question.
The official press release from 2007 had 0-100km/h at 4,8s.

http://www.m3forum.com/pressrelease/...w_m3_gb_fv.pdf

As I pointed out a few posts above, the official spec shows that the F8x has larger gains in performance vs E9x than E9x had vs E46. Quite contrary to what Fatal Gamer claims....
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:53 AM   #100
SD ///M4
///Multiple
SD ///M4's Avatar
United_States
2992
Rep
4,243
Posts

Drives: M4 Coupe | M3 | Z4M Roadster
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexN View Post
What is the missing word in this sentence?
Quote:
Over an entire life cycle, the M3 is number in its segment, the M5 is number one in its segment and the X5 M and X6 M are the most successful cars in their segment.
I caught this too and assumed that the missing word is "one", as in "...the M3 is number one in its segment...". Otherwise, they wouldn't have mentioned it if it were second or third, etc.

But the original post should be edited to provide the missing word.
__________________
The Coupe: 2016 M4 | Sakhir Orange | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | More | ED 5/13/16
The Sedan: 2018 M3 | San Marino Blue | Black Full Merino Leather | CF Trim | M-DCT | ZCP | ED 7/18/18
The Roadster: 2006 Z4 | Interlagos Blue | Black Extended Nappa Leather | Carbon Leather Trim | Purchased 7/19/12

Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 11:57 AM   #101
Alex07M3
Banned
82
Rep
2,688
Posts

Drives: E92 M3, Evo X MR, A4 Allroad
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Gatineau

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer View Post
Who says there is not enough torque in the M3? I never felt that. Going from 300 to 400 is decent of course also, but it isnt like the 500-600 some other cars have like M5 or Amg or corvette. So it is going to feel good but not gluing you down to your seat good.
It's torque at the wheels that counts, not torque at the crank.

How many times does it need to be said
295ft-lb in a 1650kg car from an high reving N/A engine and 400lb-ft in a 1550kg car from a turbo engine is a BIG difference, wait till you drive it, you'll see!!
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 12:09 PM   #102
kgroschi
Captain
kgroschi's Avatar
Germany
622
Rep
959
Posts

Drives: 08' M5, '09 335i, '18 M3 MT
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Munich and Los Angeles (O.C.)

iTrader: (0)

Thank god BMW M doesn't offer AWD. At least not yet. These fast cars are getting too easy to drive. I don't wanna pull up next to an AWD model and get my ass kicked on a launch. AWD is boring, destroys the steering wheel and adds lots of unnecessary weight to a sports!!!! car. AWD is fine in regular models if you live in cold weather countries but other than that I would personally never get an AWD unless it's maybe a Turbo S.

Great questions though Jason.
__________________

Verde Mantis Green M3 F80 Manual
-
Motor Journalist from Germany and BMW Genius
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 12:10 PM   #103
kgroschi
Captain
kgroschi's Avatar
Germany
622
Rep
959
Posts

Drives: 08' M5, '09 335i, '18 M3 MT
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Munich and Los Angeles (O.C.)

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer View Post
M3 does not do 0-60 in 4.8s using manual transmission.
Not 0-60 but 0-100 km/h.
__________________

Verde Mantis Green M3 F80 Manual
-
Motor Journalist from Germany and BMW Genius
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 12:11 PM   #104
Never Convicted
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
1108
Rep
1,497
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Charlotte NC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer View Post
M3 does not do 0-60 in 4.8s using manual transmission.
LOL!...so take that Boss!
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 12:14 PM   #105
Glina
Lieutenant
Poland
197
Rep
479
Posts

Drives: 17 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterX5 View Post
33% increase is pretty fine, better than decent I'd say
Feeling wise is going to be even more (40%) because of the weight difference.
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 12:17 PM   #106
Thurman Murch
Lieutenant
Seychelles
62
Rep
499
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Island in the sun

iTrader: (0)

My F30 has better turn-in and ability to point the car through turns than my E92M... although it isn't as planted and bounces somewhat... I am sure the F8X will have this solidified

It is a perf edition and it is beginning to break in feels faster than a 335is

BMW should have kept a V8 in the F8X and put the S55 in the M2 when it comes out but understand all the regulations and CO2 etc.

I do prefer tight steering over light steering and hope this is tightened up
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 12:25 PM   #107
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer View Post
Who says there is not enough torque in the M3? I never felt that. Going from 300 to 400 is decent of course also, but it isnt like the 500-600 some other cars have like M5 or Amg or corvette. So it is going to feel good but not gluing you down to your seat good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
It's torque at the wheels that counts, not torque at the crank.

How many times does it need to be said
EXACTLY!!!

The F8x with DCT has the following max torque at the wheel numbers in 1st to 5th gear:

1st: 9152Nm
2nd: 4939Nm
3rd: 3240Nm
4th: 2210Nm
5th: 1904Nm

vs C63 AMG with a 600Nm engine (S55 has 550Nm)

1st: 7410Nm
2nd: 4839Nm
3rd: 3246Nm
4th: 2316Nm
5th: 1692Nm

vs E63 AMG with a 720Nm engine (S55 has 550Nm)

1st: 8352Nm
2nd: 5457Nm
3rd: 3663Nm
4th: 2614Nm
5th: 1908Nm

As you can see, the F8x has more torque at the wheels than the C63 in every gear from 1st to 5th, apart from in 4th.

The F8x even has more torque at the wheels in 1st gear, than the E63 with a 720Nm engine. And in 5th, the difference is just 4Nm in favour of the E63...

Add (or rather substract) the lower weight of the F8x vs C63 and E63, and you get the picture on relative performance
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 12:30 PM   #108
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer View Post
M3 does not do 0-60 in 4.8s using manual transmission.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
LOL!...so take that Boss!


According to BMW official press release from 2007 the E92 MT6 takes 4,8s in the 0-100km/h sprint.

http://www.m3forum.com/pressrelease/...w_m3_gb_fv.pdf

And, since we only have official press releases for the F8x, that's what we need to compare it with for the E92 as well...

Just like a E92 might have done better times, so might the F8x do when tested. "Real world" numbers can only be compared when we have real world numbers for the F8x as well

BTW. The E46 did a 8:22s Nurburgring lap time, the E92 did a 8:05s time, both driven by the same driver (Horst von Saurma from Sport Auto). BMW claims the F8x is at least 10s quicker than the E92, so at least a 7:55 time (by the same test criteria as above).

Improving the time from 8:22 to 8:05 equals a 3,4% improvement

Improving the time from 8:05 to 7:55 equals a 2,1% improvement

So, E92 vs E46 was a bit better if we assume "just" 10s improvement. To get the same improvement (in %) the F8x lap time would need to be 16s faster than the E92.

Last edited by Boss330; 01-15-2014 at 01:17 PM.. Reason: Rectified major math blunder... ;)
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 12:35 PM   #109
Glina
Lieutenant
Poland
197
Rep
479
Posts

Drives: 17 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatal Gamer View Post
Who says there is not enough torque in the M3? I never felt that. Going from 300 to 400 is decent of course also, but it isnt like the 500-600 some other cars have like M5 or Amg or corvette. So it is going to feel good but not gluing you down to your seat good.
I'll disagree with you on this comment. It is not only 100 pounds of tq like you pointed out "going from 300-400" but t be exact is 111 tq. Also because of the weight difference between two cars it's going to feel even more.!!! Now, also; the way this tq is delivered on the new TT M3 vs the e9x makes a big difference. On the new M3 that 406 pounds of tq you get at 1800 rpms, wher e9x M3 at those rpms will be somewhere under 200 pounds of tq. Can you see the difference??? Yes that's the difference that will gluing you down to your seat good.
You also bringing out M5 or AMG with 500-600 pounds of torque. Do you know that this car is 1200 pounds lighter than M5 and somewhere around 1500 pounds lighter than AWD AMG(for example E63)
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2014, 12:37 PM   #110
riccappa
Second Lieutenant
riccappa's Avatar
54
Rep
189
Posts

Drives: 14' M235i
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Louisiana

iTrader: (0)

Is the M235i going to have the same transmission as the M3/4? I saw on the Canadian product planning bulletin that the transmission for the m235i was "borrowed" from the new M3/4. That would be awesome! Unlike many of you, I love the idea of being able to have rev matching in the more relaxed settings, and having it be disabled in sport+. I'm far from rich, and been saving my pennies for this new m235i and I think they put it perfectly when they said it's for younger drivers to give them a taste. I'm absolutely positive after driving that for a few years and constantly saving, a few years down the line I will be in an M3/4 (haven't decided which one yet).
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
bmw m4 nuburgring lap time, bmw m4 nurburgring, bmw m4 nurburgring time, f80 m3 nurburgring, f80 m3 nurburgring lap time, f80 m3 nurburgring time, f82 m4 nurburgring time

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:41 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST