Detailed M4 Track Review - Back from Spa and Nurburgring

[kinimod]

Assuming there really is a turbo lag below 3000 RPM on the F8x, why would you ever drive below 3000 RPM on a track? No trolling, good discussion, but this comment potentially disqualifies everything else you're saying.

Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries

There is significant turbo lag below 3000RPM on the F82, and the engine note is flat and doesn't have much character to it, and is quite boring overall.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Thurman Murch

So it's really that good? Is this one of those cases where BMW might dial the boost back or change things like when the first set of the N54 came out?

Of course BMW focused their business value on certain systems but if you were M chief for a day what would you change about the f8x? And what would you implement on the g chassis version of the m2-4?

I'd like to think not, but BMW is very crafty about what they sneak into updates on ECU's in for general service.

Me the M Boss?

The only thing I'd change on the new M3/4 is add competition pack because the stock ride height is to high IMO.

The M2 I'd like a back to a basic car with a CF roof. Enough choices so that you can have a striped down car (NO iDrive : ~ ) !) or a fully loaded car. M-DCT as well as S55 w/out the top mount cooler. A much raw more focused car with static suspension and that sweet CF drive shaft from the M3/4.

[kinimod]

Regarding turbo lag, I should also remind this from the interview with BMW's head of M engineering:

"Even the naturally aspirated full load level extends to as much as 270 Nm. The car will remain in this range when you want to keep up the power in the vehicle when driving through various kinds of bends. You will not feel any delayed response of the turbo in such cases, for the simple reason that the turbo charger has not actually come into play yet at these speeds."

[neverbeentoofast]

Originally Posted by kinimod

Awesome notes. Thank you.

The thing with the HUD is that with a manual transmission, you always know which gear you're in because of how gears are physically positioned and the tactile feedback you're receiving into your body from the shifter. With DCT, it almost feels like one might be unsure about his current gear especially when you're already in 6th, braking hard and downshifting 3 gears. HUD gives you confidence that the transmission is downshifting properly at the speed you desire, without the risk of taking your eyes away off the road (at least for a non-pro driver -- I'm realizing being in 6th gear is kind of an unrealistic speed for anything else than the track).

Also, in mountain roads where there isn't enough visibility and your vision ends at the apex, you can't really look too far ahead. So HUD is conveniently positioned.

So for street driving, with DCT, I'd say HUD is a great feature. On a track with manual gearbox, maybe not so much.

What's your take on that please? Am I completely off here?

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking! So I ordered it with my DCT.

[SouthernBoy]

Good review

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by kinimod

I'm realizing being in 6th gear is kind of an unrealistic speed for anything else than the track).

With the gearing of the DCT on the F8X, my guess is that you will very rarely need 6th at the track...

Your point about the HUD and DCT gear is still valid though. When I originally got DCT on my E9X, I was a bit confused at first. But your mind quickly adapts and you instinctually know what gear you are in, especially at the track because you are very focused. After a few laps, you quickly learn where you need to upshift and downshift. It is akin to driving a shifter cart (formula 125) where there is no indication of the gear you are in. Further, the gear indicator in the cluster is not that far away from the field of view if you do need to check.

[dardeca]

Very impressive comments on the new M3. Thanks for taking the time to post your review.

[bdoooh]

Originally Posted by kinimod

Assuming there really is a turbo lag below 3000 RPM on the F8x, why would you ever drive below 3000 RPM on a track? No trolling, good discussion, but this comment potentially disqualifies everything else you're saying.

I agree on the lag below 3000 RPM though. I came from a 135i & I feel coming from there.. I had much less lag under 3000.. but! with the auto-rev match downshifting is significantly easier during daily driving so there's really no need to try & accelerate hard under 3000.. not that under 3000 you still aren't faster than most cars on the street..

And yes, on the track.. if you're doing it right, you won't be under 3000RPM.. Autocross on the other hand...

[brianhn1]

I tend to agree with your comment on the HUD. After spirited driving through the Alps over and through the unrestricted parts of the autobahns through the past week, I could not recall ever consistently using the HUD to know my speed. I always recalled looking at the analog speedometer to just get a rough idea of my speed.

Is there a button to turn off the HUD? My X5 has it but I can't recall finding it on the M4.

[bdoooh]

Originally Posted by brianhn1

I tend to agree with your comment on the HUD. After spirited driving through the Alps over and through the unrestricted parts of the autobahns through the past week, I could not recall ever consistently using the HUD to know my speed. I always recalled looking at the analog speedometer to just get a rough idea of my speed.

Is there a button to turn off the HUD? My X5 has it but I can't recall finding it on the M4.

You can pre-set one of the M buttons to not have it I believe.. if not.. one of the preset buttons 1-8 you can set to turn it off.

[GC Lukhele]

Finally! A review fantastic review that is infallible! I always knew this! My experience of previous M models is the reason I had faith in the brand and that not only is the F8x better than the legend E9x M3, but that it is the best M car they have ever made! For some of us that equals the best car in the world!!!

Can't wait for my turn to drive it next week!!!

[Fuman]

Thanks. Finally a review that's a good read - and (I suppose) you are not even a motor journalist. Kudos.

Even proclaimed journalist out who can't write nor provide commentary about a car based on what it is. Especially the one by autocar on the maxed out 1000 mile road trip - sorry to those who enjoyed it.

Thanks for sharing.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by zenderm3

Great review! Thank you for the info - certainly keeps me in line for my next purchase. karussell - do you think there is any advantage/reason for buying the Ceramic brakes?

I have another post on the ceramics. In general I do not think there is any tangible benefit to them. The weight savings on street cars is not noticeable. The improved lifespan is only for street. On track CCB's need a more agressive pad. The Steels also could benefit from a track pad but the difference is the CCB's will wear much faster if you use a harder compound. CCB's are also fragile.
Their one big draw is their bling appeal and they do look great. Second they will last longer on a car only driven on the street, but still its cheaper by far to just use standard brakes.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by Ryan Leonardo

How would you say the steering is compared to the e46?? I always preferred it over the e90. Interesting to hear how the f80 is to the older gen M's.

I think the rack in the F8X is a masterpiece. After driving the 991's many times and aweful F30's I was dreading this would be the one big disappointment on the F8X and I was pleasantly surprised from the very first turn inside the BMW Welt. Maybe I have numb arms or something but i seriously could not tell it wasn't hydraulic assisted. and the precision on the track....

The E46 M3 had good steering feel but it was a little too light for my taste. I think the E9X steering was better than the E46. I think the F8X has the BEST steering rack BMW has made to date. Its definitely the best electric power assisted. and it can hang with 997 hydraulic units.

[rubber_ducky]

Originally Posted by karussell

I think the rack in the F8X is a masterpiece. After driving the 991's many times and aweful F30's I was dreading this would be the one big disappointment on the F8X and I was pleasantly surprised from the very first turn inside the BMW Welt. Maybe I have numb arms or something but i seriously could not tell it wasn't hydraulic assisted. and the precision on the track....

The E46 M3 had good steering feel but it was a little too light for my taste. I think the E9X steering was better than the E46. I think the F8X has the BEST steering rack BMW has made to date. Its definitely the best electric ]power assisted. and it can hang with 997 hydraulic units.

Edit: misread your post. Interesting that the F80's EPS is as good as the hydraulic unit in the 997. That's saying a lot.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by 03///m3

Thank you for the review. I really appreciate your feedback. I'm considering making the switch from an e92 and I track my cars frequently so your review is great news for me as I'm was hoping I wouldn't have to modify too many parts for the track.

Can you please comment on the seating position height? Do you think the f80 has a lower seating position than the e92? I have cloth and manual seats in my e92 and I think the seating position is at least 2 inches too high.

Also how does the steering wheel diameter compare to the e92? Larger, smaller or the same?

Thanks !

Great news is the seating position is excellent. You sit low. I agree on the E92 always wondered why E9X was so high up. Felt like a pickup after getting out of a 997. For a long time I ran a Recaro Pole Position in my E90 M3's so i could sit where I preferred.

Steering wheel diameter on these cars always too large for my tastes. It think its about the same as E92. Definitely needs alcantara though!

[karussell]

Originally Posted by UKRBMW

Hi - thanks for writing this up. Sounds like you drove both M3 and M4 (or instructed in both). Did you feel any meaningful difference between the two? Was one any more stable or better handling than the other?

Thanks

Good question. I did drive and sit right seat in both cars on track. I felt right at home in either car. The coupe does not feel any faster or nimbler than the sedan. butt dyno said they are the same.

[karussell]

Thanks for the comments.

I can't speak for their longevity or costs. You already said it. more complicated the more expensive to fix and likely more chances for something to go wrong. If you intend to keep the car a long time then maybe less is more approach is good. No DCT, No adaptives, No HUD.

I'm rather old school with cars myself. I love to work on them, maintain them. I'm rebuilding an E30 325iS currently. simply love that platform. And my current daily driver is a no-sunroof E46 ZHP which I love dearly just as you love yours. The E9X M3 was the most reliable BMW manufactured during its production period. I had 2 of them both driven very "fully" and didn't have any major issues. I can't speak for the new one but I can say we pushed 22 of them and no major issues. I think BMW did their best to create a very well built and tested platform. Being the legendary M3 I think BMW had to make sure it would be a knock-out success as it helps drives sales for their other products.

I reserve judgement for reliability as no one can say. Also besides my love affair with E30's, I tend to keep newer cars around 5 years max and then I go on to something different so I'm probably not the right person to answer your question.

The E9X EDC was I thought a very good design. It was designed on the ring as well and tested there. Its a rough road and it did very well on the course. yes on smooth tracks it lacked the firmness that I would prefer but I thought the ZCP version was a definite improvement. The F8X adaptive suspension is whole new animal however. I don't think you will have any issue with them on whatever surface you take it on. If it breaks out of warranty.....yeah probably not a cheap bill to fix. then again ever work on a E39 with DME problems??? that sucks....

Originally Posted by StealYourFace

OP, great post, thank you.

Many other very good posts, questions and additional feedback revolving around the new car in this post as well. This is a very good thread (aside from a few dick comments, cynicism... not that some critical thinking isn't healthy, but some guys are needlessly dick headed).

That said, I have a question around the very good conversation regarding the adaptive shocks v. standard/fixed shocks. It sounds like the weight is nearly the same which is really cool, and that the new version of the adaptive suspension is really dialed in and gets rid of the artificial over damped feeling, pretty much negating the old car's (and other cars with adaptive shocks) deficits.

Here is a question not asked, and not about the driving aspect... what is the long term reliability/cost outlook for a car with adaptive suspension? I am the type of buyer that keeps cars for a long time, since cars are just so good these days, it is hard to justify constant trades (contrary to most Americans car buying habits... plus I get a certain sense of joy maintaining a car long term and developing a sort of relationship with a car, and really getting everything I can out of it... I have a 330i with just shy of 150,000 miles now and even after countless auto x, and now 8 track days, I still haven't outgrown/gotten bored with it, despite previously owning more powerful cars).

C/N: I keep cars forever, and buy cars optioned simpler for long term enjoyment/cost effectiveness... will the potential maintenance costs of the adaptive shocks make the option something a long term owner should avoid, or do the benefits outweigh the possible long term costs to keep the suspension operating at the original level?

[karussell]

Originally Posted by plesg

Hi thanks for the great write up, I. I a. Dilemma, I am lucky enough to be upgrading my F30 MSport, I cannot decide on whether to go for a 911 S Carrara second hand but only year old (there are a few around here in brisbane Australia) or the M4....they will cost about the same money here, what would you go for?

I had a similar PM question. So here is my general advice. Even though i said the argument for a 991S is largely negated that is from my perspective having previously owned and tracked 911's for the past 7 years.

If you have a history with BMW's especially ///M cars and you are curious about the dark side PLEASE go drive a Porsche. Cayman, Boxster, Carrera. whatever. With the 911 you will feel like its pushing you and possibly want to kill you at any moment and you will LOVE it or you will HATE it! (this feature is largely subdued in the 991 but its still very much evident) For the Cayman/Boxster you will likely feel like the brakes are optional for all curves you encounter and wonder why it doesn't get more power. You will LOVE it or you will HATE it! If you are in the former category then go for it! scratch that itch! There are really no bad Porsche's. If the latter then obviously get the best BMW sports car ever made.

I recommend however if you do consider buying a Porsche...look at the model that is at the high point of your budget range and then buy the one above that. Yes option prices are crazy high, but there is a little old lady in zuffenhausen and her job is to wrap leather on a/c vents. She is the worlds foremost expert on wrapping a/c vents in leather and she along with dozens of other artists have families to feed. All kidding aside its all part of the experience.

After you had your fun in the P-car of your dreams maybe you will decide to come back to BMW and the M3/M4 will always be there. You can buy one new or used and its going to be a great deal for what it gives you in return. They are two different cars but both belong in your garage preferably at the same time if you are lucky enough.

On a side-note. PDK in the 991 is not as smooth as DCT in the F8X but I still prefer the PDK more. It just feels more raw and unrefined. more like a rally car. I love the high position of the lever on the center console. just remember the pattern is backwards on non-GT cars. that part is annoying...

[GBPackerfan1963]

Originally Posted by karussell

I had a similar PM question. So here is my general advice. Even though i said the argument for a 991S is largely negated that is from my perspective having previously owned and tracked 911's for the past 7 years.

If you have a history with BMW's especially ///M cars and you are curious about the dark side PLEASE go drive a Porsche. Cayman, Boxster, Carrera. whatever. With the 911 you will feel like its pushing you and possibly want to kill you at any moment and you will LOVE it or you will HATE it! (this feature is largely subdued in the 991 but its still very much evident) For the Cayman/Boxster you will likely feel like the brakes are optional for all curves you encounter and wonder why it doesn't get more power. You will LOVE it or you will HATE it! If you are in the former category then go for it! scratch that itch! There are really no bad Porsche's. If the latter then obviously get the best BMW sports car ever made.

I recommend however if you do consider buying a Porsche...look at the model that is at the high point of your budget range and then buy the one above that. Yes option prices are crazy high, but there is a little old lady in zuffenhausen and her job is to wrap leather on a/c vents. She is the worlds foremost expert on wrapping a/c vents in leather and she along with dozens of other artists have families to feed. All kidding aside its all part of the experience.

After you had your fun in the P-car of your dreams maybe you will decide to come back to BMW and the M3/M4 will always be there. You can buy one new or used and its going to be a great deal for what it gives you in return. They are two different cars but both belong in your garage preferably at the same time if you are lucky enough.

On a side-note. PDK in the 991 is not as smooth as DCT in the F8X but I still prefer the PDK more. It just feels more raw and unrefined. more like a rally car. I love the high position of the lever on the center console. just remember the pattern is backwards on non-GT cars. that part is annoying...

Very eloquently put.

[karussell]

I felt no turbo lag at any rpm. i find the turbo's wind up very linearly even when i try to trick the car into a lag state. what I think you mistake for lag in lower rpm is clutch engagement in lower rpm with the DCT. Its very very easy on the F10 M5. A manual boxed M4 you will enjoy...trust me.

The 3.8 Mezger compared to any other motor especially a forced fed one is going to feel somewhat of a letdown. I'm actually surprised you like the S65 so much in the E92. Yes the motor itself is good but the low torque on a heavy platform really held it back. And its throttle response is nothing like the Mezger. I find the S55 is spiritually closer than the S65 was other than the lower rpm limit. It makes lots of funny angry little noises which makes me chuckle just like the mezger.

On steering feel, I think its better than any M car before it. I stand by that. Its direct, precise, weighted. I didn't detect any lag that is evident in the 991 and as you said was previously the best eps system out there. I did not have any complaints about it on street or track, but that's just my feeling on it. maybe you have much more sensitive hands? I would say you must reserve your judgement for track for steering feel.You will be shocked how fast this car really is. In the RS I can do a very spirited lap and think wow that pushed the envelope and glad I landed back on the ground. With the M4 it just begs for more and more. A lot of that has to do with how easy it is to drive and its relative cost. The RS for me was by far the most expensive car I ever purchased so something in the back of my head always holds back a reserve. It was ultimately much more fun to race a much lower hp car in competition than lap in a street car even one so great as the RS.

Would I prefer a 4.4L GTS block in the F82? No. My M4 is a street car that I take to the track. I like not to spend all my time at the fuel pump and the car is so fun with the forced induction motor.....and I traditionally hate turbo motors!! This is the first one i am absolutely happy with. Plus the cost of such a car would far eclipse a GT3 and still not keep up to it so I would just get that again anyways. The GT3 RS is still my favorite sports car so long as I can drive it in Germany or predominantly on a track. commuting in it, going to the grocery store, even driving the country side in it at legalish speeds....kinda impossible. With the M4 its fun all the time. Besides I love driving a slower car full of passengers by much faster ones on the track, especially the Nordschleife. ))

In the end none of this matters. as you said we have our different opinions. I'm a E30 and E46 M3 fan myself. I thought those cars had the most M-spirit in them and now I will gladly include the F8X in that group.

Your views I think are largely related to comparing the RS to the M4 versus the E92 to the F82. That in itself I think shows how good this car is. of course its ridiculous to compare them on track performance but really thats exactly what is happening. I think more Porsche owners are looking at the M4 as a daily driver that can also go on the track.

Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries

I would rate the steering as 8/10 E92 M3, 6.5/10 F82 M4, 5/10 991 911S.

Why do you feel the the F82 has better steering than the E92? I 100% agree that the steering is improved over the 991, however it has nowhere the tactility and feel of the E92. At the limit you seriously think it's more communicative? What is it that made you think this?


2. I have to admit right off the bat the GT3 RS gets to 100mph in 8.0 sec whereas the E92 M3 is about 10.1 sec so the E92 doesn't feel fast to me however the engine was incredible and had so much soul and character. The torque delivery is flat and instantaneous above 3000RPM much like the RS. There is significant turbo lag below 3000RPM on the F82, and the engine note is flat and doesn't have much character to it, and is quite boring overall. I found the engine to be somewhat disappointing other than the fact that is is extremely fast for a car in this class.

I'd rank the engine sound in the E92 7.5/10, F82 M4 is 5/10.


If you were given the option to stick an evolved and improved 450hp 4.4L M3 GTS engine into this car wouldn't you take it in a heart beat? Let's say the addition of direction injection and power around the 475hp mark which would keep acceleration at more or less the same as this "425hp" engine.


3. Did you think this car was that fun to drive? A major publication reviewed this car and stated it feels a lot like a baby M5. Which is exactly what I thought when I drove it. We all know the car is more COMPETENT on a track, but didn't you find it somewhat boring to drive? That's how I felt during the test drives and I couldn't shake that. I mean you can jump into the RS anytime you want and have that super involving drive, but the M4 is dull. It feels more like an M440i instead of an M4 if you know what I mean. The distinction is not as significant as before.


I agree completely with everything else you wrote. Brakes are twice as good as before, much more linear. I'm guessing I'll eventually upgrade to the new body style but I'm resisting so far.

Thanks! Would be nice to hear you address these differences between our opinions.

[Suave]

You really should be writing for a magazine!! Great Comments!

Hello anybody out there in Car World looking for a new writer here you go...

Originally Posted by karussell

I felt no turbo lag at any rpm. i find the turbo's wind up very linearly even when i try to trick the car into a lag state. what I think you mistake for lag in lower rpm is clutch engagement in lower rpm with the DCT. Its very very easy on the F10 M5. A manual boxed M4 you will enjoy...trust me.

The 3.8 Mezger compared to any other motor especially a forced fed one is going to feel somewhat of a letdown. I'm actually surprised you like the S65 so much in the E92. Yes the motor itself is good but the low torque on a heavy platform really held it back. And its throttle response is nothing like the Mezger. I find the S55 is spiritually closer than the S65 was other than the lower rpm limit. It makes lots of funny angry little noises which makes me chuckle just like the mezger.

On steering feel, I think its better than any M car before it. I stand by that. Its direct, precise, weighted. I didn't detect any lag that is evident in the 991 and as you said was previously the best eps system out there. I did not have any complaints about it on street or track, but that's just my feeling on it. maybe you have much more sensitive hands? I would say you must reserve your judgement for track for steering feel.You will be shocked how fast this car really is. In the RS I can do a very spirited lap and think wow that pushed the envelope and glad I landed back on the ground. With the M4 it just begs for more and more. A lot of that has to do with how easy it is to drive and its relative cost. The RS for me was by far the most expensive car I ever purchased so something in the back of my head always holds back a reserve. It was ultimately much more fun to race a much lower hp car in competition than lap in a street car even one so great as the RS.

Would I prefer a 4.4L GTS block in the F82? No. My M4 is a street car that I take to the track. I like not to spend all my time at the fuel pump and the car is so fun with the forced induction motor.....and I traditionally hate turbo motors!! This is the first one i am absolutely happy with. Plus the cost of such a car would far eclipse a GT3 and still not keep up to it so I would just get that again anyways. The GT3 RS is still my favorite sports car so long as I can drive it in Germany or predominantly on a track. commuting in it, going to the grocery store, even driving the country side in it at legalish speeds....kinda impossible. With the M4 its fun all the time. Besides I love driving a slower car full of passengers by much faster ones on the track, especially the Nordschleife. ))

In the end none of this matters. as you said we have our different opinions. I'm a E30 and E46 M3 fan myself. I thought those cars had the most M-spirit in them and now I will gladly include the F8X in that group.

Your views I think are largely related to comparing the RS to the M4 versus the E92 to the F82. That in itself I think shows how good this car is. of course its ridiculous to compare them on track performance but really thats exactly what is happening. I think more Porsche owners are looking at the M4 as a daily driver that can also go on the track.