M4 GTS Sport Auto supertest in English

[Powerslide]

Wow - faster than the 991 GT3...

Get ready for all the haters to comment here and criticize the M4 GTS for costing almost twice as much and being "slower" (1:08.7 vs 1:09.6) - yet nobody would dare make a similar statement vs. the GT3 (which costs even more than the GTS - and was at 1:09.2)...

Notwithstanding the rant above - I actually love all 3 of these cars!! (My dislike is haters taking inconsistent positions - not the cars in question). I've driven the 991 GT3 on the track and it is an amazing machine (would love to drive the other two as well)

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

SA just tested the Vette Grand Sport.

Shocked the Grand Sport Vette is quicker than both GT3 and GTS. What a bargain!

Although I am sure Porsche will have something in a few months with the 991.2 GT3. The normal 991.2 S did a 1:09.6.

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Shocked the Grand Sport Vette is quicker than both GT3 and GTS. What a bargain!

Although I am sure Porsche will have something in a few months with the 991.2 GT3. The normal 991.2 S did a 1:09.6.

Sorry if I sound like a snob but would never even consider a Vette. I just cannot imagine showing up at work with one. May be the fact that I just turned 60 has to do something with it. The older guy with blonde on the passenger seat image sticks to it...
GTS for me all the way!

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Sorry if I sound like a snob but would never even consider a Vette. I just cannot imagine showing up at work with one. May be the fact that I just turned 60 has to do something with it. The older guy with blonde on the passenger seat image sticks to it...
GTS for me all the way!

I totally respect your opinion. Stereotypes run deep. But if you look at the cars side by side, you could easily stereotype the BMW (especially non car enthusiast co-workers).

With it's orange wheels, giant orange splitter, flat paint and massive wing, the GTS implies "kids car" to those who don't understand.




The Vette on the other hand, appears more "exotic", closer to a Ferrari than a tuner car.






Personally I'd love to own either car, and I would give zero f*cks about what anyone thought about it.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It has to be noted that the 2003 996 GT3 was tested with P-Zero Rosso street tires while the M3 CSL was tested with Pilot Sport Cup r-compound tires.

The CSL still impresses though. It's like BMW taking a car based on its mainstream sedan, adds some ///M(otorsport) magic to it and goes out and slaps Porsche right in the face by "beating" its venerable GT3 at a very significant price point difference. Even the 2006 GT3 shod with PSC and 55hp more than the CSL was only able to beat it by a mere 3 seconds around the 'ring. That's the kind of stuff that made me an ///M fan back in the days. I agree with you, it seems ///M is struggling to repeat those type of feats.

While the CSL was a good car, it was still not at GT3 levels if you account for tires, and those results above speak to that. Mind you the GT3 RS in 2003 ran 7:43 which was on cup tires. Similar IMO to how the Giuliani QV on a cup tire on track isn't able to beat the m3/4. Interestingly enough, in 2003 it was the GT3 that won EVO car of the year too. Since then the GT3 has continued to set the bar for cars of this breed and has never looked back.
There has also been much contention around the CSL time as in most cases it was considerably slower than the 996 GT3 despite a huge advantage in tire which says it all to me. Just look at fastest laps for the time comparisons.

[jpdchicago]

That is why I got Alpine White. More discreet...lol
Still got the boy racer orange wheels though.
Nice pictures of that Vette!

[Captain Unknown GT4]

As far as I remember 996 GT3 RS did lap 7.47min In sport autos hands, vs CSL 7.50min sport auto.

Porsche Is not Top of the hill, that Mercedes AMG GT-R. Its less dollar than 991 GT3 RS, and same same roll cage, buckets seat etc and lap 7.11min sport auto hands vs 991 RS 7.28min.

By the way I think 7.43 time on 996 GT3 RS was Porsche claimed factory time as I recall. Did not bother to check but as I remember. Also BMW M did lap CSL faster than 7.50min wich sport auto did.

Whats more, I remember a 996 GT3 Mk1 on Cup tire to do same same in lap time on most tracks out in the real world, when 2 solid drivers lap. On short tight tracks the lighter mk1 GT3 had the edge. On Nur same same.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

While the CSL was a good car, it was still not at GT3 levels if you account for tires, and those results above speak to that. Similar IMO to how the Giuliani QV on a cup tire on track isn't able to beat the m3/4. Interestingly enough, in 2003 it was the GT3 that won EVO car of the year too.

Read the bold section of my post a second time

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Mind you the GT3 RS in 2003 ran 7:43 which was on cup tires.

I believe it is 7:47 and not 7:43. So even the 40% costlier more radical "RS" needed 21hp more to beat the CSL by 3 seconds on similar tires

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Since then the GT3 has continued to set the bar for cars of this breed and has never looked back.

Really ? From what I see, it has been spanked pretty hard by the Americans in recent times...

Disclaimer: I am a 911 GT3/GT3RS fan, if I were to buy a track focused car, the GT3 would be it.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Read the bold section of my post a second time



I believe it is 7:47 and not 7:43. So even the 40% costlier more radical "RS" needed 21hp more to beat the CSL by 3 seconds on similar tires



Really ? From what I see, it has been spanked pretty hard by the Americans in recent times...

Disclaimer: I am a 911 GT3/GT3RS fan, if I were to buy a track focused car, the GT3 would be it.

M3 CSL time was an is an anomaly. None of the other items it put down are all that great. Even back then the GT3 on lesser tires handily beat it on most courses with ease. The ring time vs the other times don't reconcile.
While lap times are one thing, a pure driving machine combined with those are another and surely anyone could tell you that while a 500 hp GT3 RS might not put down all laps as fast or faster than a z06 which has 30% more power, the GT3 is still the one people want. And as for speed, it always been the GT2 that was the fastest and the new GT2 RS (hold this as my prediction) will be the car. No AMG GTR or Mclaren 675 will touch it. My guess is it may be the car that breaks the 918s Ring record.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by Captain Unknown GT4

As far as I remember 996 GT3 RS did lap 7.48min In sport autos hands, vs CSL 7.50min sport auto.

Porsche Is not Top of the hill, that Mercedes AMG GT-R. Its less dollar than 991 GT3 RS, and same same roll cage, buckets seat etc and lap 7.11min sport auto hands vs 991 RS 7.28min.

By the way I think 7.43 time on 996 GT3 RS was Porsche claimed factory time as I recall. Did not bother to check but as I remember. Also BMW M did lap CSL faster than 7.50min wich sport auto did.

Whats more, I remember a 996 GT3 Mk1 on Cup tire to do same same in lap time on most tracks out in the real world, when 2 solid drivers lap. On short tight tracks the lighter mk1 GT3 had the edge. On Nur same same.

I would hope a Mercedes that is making another 100 hp and tq would be a bit faster than the now several year old GT3 due for refresh. As I said above, the GT2 RS, and likely the new GT3 or GT3 RS will best that time with ease.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

I would hope a Mercedes that is making another 100 hp and tq would be a bit faster than the now several year old GT3 due for refresh. As I said above, the GT2 RS, and likely the new GT3 or GT3 RS will best that time with ease.

Maybe... Maybe not.

Sport Auto just got a 1:08.7 time on Hockenheim for the Corvette Grand Sport with 450 HP, whereas the 991.3 with 475 hp (and less weight) came in at 109.2... That 7:11 ring time will not be easy to beat - so I guess we'll have to see either way.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

M3 CSL time was an is an anomaly. None of the other items it put down are all that great. Even back then the GT3 on lesser tires handily beat it on most courses with ease. The ring time vs the other times don't reconcile.
While lap times are one thing, a pure driving machine combined with those are another and surely anyone could tell you that while a 500 hp GT3 RS might not put down all laps as fast or faster than a z06 which has 30% more power, the GT3 is still the one people want. And as for speed, it always been the GT2 that was the fastest and the new GT2 RS (hold this as my prediction) will be the car. No AMG GTR or Mclaren 675 will touch it. My guess is it may be the car that breaks the 918s Ring record.

Looking at Fastestlaps.com, the results are consistent with the SA Supertest 'ring lap times, where the 996 GT3 is slightly slower than the CSL and the 996.2 GT3 is slightly faster than the CSL.

http://fastestlaps.com/models/porsche-911-gt3-996-1999
http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m3-csl
http://fastestlaps.com/models/porsche-911-gt3-996

It does not change my impression of the CSL, that it is able to hang with the GT3 of it's era with less power, for significantly less money and retain the practicality of a 4-seater. And that is where lies my dissapointment with the M4 GTS, while it comes very close to the GT3 in performance, it also matches its price and also loses the practicality of the 4 seats.

And BTW, the SA 'ring record is no longer held by the 918. It's been broken by the AMG GT-R

I am also looking forward to the GT2 RS

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Looking at Fastestlaps.com, the results are consistent with the SA Supertest 'ring lap times, where the 996 GT3 is slightly slower than the CSL and the 996.2 GT3 is slightly faster than the CSL.

http://fastestlaps.com/models/porsche-911-gt3-996-1999
http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m3-csl
http://fastestlaps.com/models/porsche-911-gt3-996

It does not change my impression of the CSL, that it is able to hang with the GT3 of it's era with less power, for significantly less money and retain the practicality of a 4-seater. And that is where lies my dissapointment with the M4 GTS, while it comes very close to the GT3 in performance, it also matches its price and also loses the practicality of the 4 seats.

And BTW, the SA 'ring record is no longer held by the 918. It's been broken by the AMG GT-R

I am also looking forward to the GT2 RS

The fact that the CSL was on Cup tires and the GT3 just summer rubber shows me the GT3 was still the better car given the minute differences in lap times that would otherwise have put the GT3 ahead if equipped with cup tires.
The M3 GTS was a huge disappointment and was not even close to being of GT3/RS calibre, and the new GTS still can't quite match a several year old GT3, gets CRUSHED by a GT3 RS (MT best drivers car the RS was 6 second ahead per lap) and will only fall further behind when the new GT3/RS come out. The fact that the M4 GTS can't even beat an entry level 991.2S despite nearly 80 hp and 80 tq more and again on cup tires vs summer says more than needs to be said about the two cars overall capabilities. The M4 GTS is surely the most capable BMW, but when you broaden the scope of other cars in this category, it isn't nearly at the top of the spectrum. Porsche just doesn't disappoint in this segment and I honestly think when the GT3 goes turbo, it will only leap further ahead given how much faster it will be even than it is with gobs of torque. The 991.2 is prime example. Barely more hp, ~45 lbs of torque and that car just leap into another realm, and it was fast enough as it was.

As for the AMG GTR, impressive lap, but no way do I think if they each set down a lap, same day, that it would be ANYWHERE close.

[CirrusSR22]

Here's that Corvette Grand Sport lap

[jpdchicago]

Nice!
Did you see that interior though? It reminds me of a Saab from the eighties. Not very original or exciting to look at.
I also hope you don't mind plastic.
Value for the money in terms of performance though? Hands down to the grand sport.
I just could not live with it every day.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Maybe... Maybe not.

Sport Auto just got a 1:08.7 time on Hockenheim for the Corvette Grand Sport with 450 HP, whereas the 991.3 with 475 hp (and less weight) came in at 109.2... That 7:11 ring time will not be easy to beat - so I guess we'll have to see either way.

Top Gear has confirmed with Mercedes that there will be a black series GT-R.

[Brindle101]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Shocked the Grand Sport Vette is quicker than both GT3 and GTS. What a bargain!

Although I am sure Porsche will have something in a few months with the 991.2 GT3. The normal 991.2 S did a 1:09.6.

Everyone knows, dollar for dollar you can not beat a vette (and even in flat out performance not taking cost into account). It is a tremendous performance bargain. But, for that reason they sell a ton of them, so sometimes it doesn't seem as special when you see them all the time.

They are all great cars, have to pick which one is best for you. (Maybe more than one..haha)

It really is a great time to be a car enthusiast ✌️

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

The fact that the CSL was on Cup tires and the GT3 just summer rubber shows me the GT3 was still the better car given the minute differences in lap times that would otherwise have put the GT3 ahead if equipped with cup tires.
The M3 GTS was a huge disappointment and was not even close to being of GT3/RS calibre, and the new GTS still can't quite match a several year old GT3, gets CRUSHED by a GT3 RS (MT best drivers car the RS was 6 second ahead per lap) and will only fall further behind when the new GT3/RS come out. The fact that the M4 GTS can't even beat an entry level 991.2S despite nearly 80 hp and 80 tq more and again on cup tires vs summer says more than needs to be said about the two cars overall capabilities. The M4 GTS is surely the most capable BMW, but when you broaden the scope of other cars in this category, it isn't nearly at the top of the spectrum. Porsche just doesn't disappoint in this segment and I honestly think when the GT3 goes turbo, it will only leap further ahead given how much faster it will be even than it is with gobs of torque. The 991.2 is prime example. Barely more hp, ~45 lbs of torque and that car just leap into another realm, and it was fast enough as it was.

As for the AMG GTR, impressive lap, but no way do I think if they each set down a lap, same day, that it would be ANYWHERE close.

Just read the new 991.2 GTS did the ring in 7:22. Highly impressive.

[schnell325]

Damn. Time right now to but a Pcar