2018 BMW M3 CS priced at $97,400

[dkhm3]

And to think just a year and a half ago, the 991.1 models could not compete with the M3 in spec numbers til you got a 991.1 GTS level pricing.

991.1 911 GTS
$138,750
0-60 3.6 seconds
1/4: 11.9 @ 118 mph

things were quite the other way around in terms of value not so long ago. Still, today you need to get the 911 S to be faster than the M3 in terms of acceleration @ 120k.

https://www.caranddriver.com/compari...e-specs-page-5

[jpdchicago]

Cannot wait to see the dealer markups. Even at this price. People never learn.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Cannot wait to see the dealer markups. Even at this price. People never learn.

Some dealerships- Sonic owned ones in my area for bmw and Fletcher Jones for MB don't do adm last I checked, but then if there are only a few cars, they are usually sold out there first.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

And to think just a year and a half ago, the 991.1 models could not compete with the M3 in spec numbers til you got a 991.1 GTS level pricing.

991.1 911 GTS
$138,750
0-60 3.6 seconds
1/4: 11.9 @ 118 mph

things were quite the other way around in terms of value not so long ago. Still, today you need to get the 911 S to be faster than the M3 in terms of acceleration @ 120k.

https://www.caranddriver.com/compari...e-specs-page-5

But are the specs ever reflective of what we see in real world applications? Not being argumentative, but specs aren’t the main basis of comparison, at least to me. It can be a starting point for sure, but how does a specific vehicle put that power down? How does it handle tight circuits vs. ones that have more straightaways? That can tell you much more in terms of where a car will shine versus where it might struggle.

More importantly, I place more importance in the objective testing, such as verified Ring times. Or when respected journalists test cars on the same roads. Other places would count too - but those are the most obvious ones to me.

When you see how a car performs on a circuit like the Ring, it gives you a real idea of its overall capabilities (even if the average person couldn’t achieve similar results).

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

But are the specs ever reflective of what we see in real world applications? Not being argumentative, but specs aren’t the main basis of comparison, at least to me. It can be a starting point for sure, but how does a specific vehicle put that power down? How does it handle tight circuits vs. ones that have more straightaways? That can tell you much more in terms of where a car will shine versus where it might struggle.

More importantly, I place more importance in the objective testing, such as verified Ring times. Or when respected journalists test cars on the same roads. Other places would count too - but those are the most obvious ones to me.

When you see how a car performs on a circuit like the Ring, it gives you a real idea of its overall capabilities (even if the average person couldn’t achieve similar results).

That's why I said value in spec numbers.

991.1 had shitty spec numbers til you got to the GTS for bang for the buck.

C and D reviews the m4 to be better than the 991.1 911, and considering how much they hate the m4 to begin with, that says a lot.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Everyone [says] I should have a spec miata, plus a trailer, plus a tow vehicle to do all these track days. Why? A pretty close to stock M3 ... is fast enough to whoop all these P car fanboys

That's also why I don't spend $$$ on a fancy gym:

None of those 10 year-olds I box has ever won a round against me.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by KillrM3

Never heard of Van Diesel. Is that a shoe brand or jeans?

Here he is. I've always thought his name was dumb hence the Van instead of Vin

I also added a pic of one of his F&F rides with a GTS wing

[ano0oj]

Might as well go for an M5.....

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

That's why I said value in spec numbers.

991.1 had shitty spec numbers til you got to the GTS for bang for the buck.

C and D reviews the m4 to be better than the 991.1 911, and considering how much they hate the m4 to begin with, that says a lot.

But then there’s this - where the 991.2 Carrera S handily beats the ultimate M4, the GTS. Spec-wise, the GTS should be much faster than the 911...but in reality, it’s not.

And a drag race isn’t typically where a 911 shines.

[spdandpwr]

LOL, I love how everyone debates about this. The reality is, a p car and the m3 / m4 accomplish very different things. The m4 is more of a grand tourer than the Porsche 911. Sure the 911 has rear seats and a surprisingly big boot, but it's always put sport intentions ahead of GT intentions. As I see it, you don't buy an M4 because you WANT to beat a Porsche, it just so happens to beat some Porsches.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

But then there’s this - where the 991.2 Carrera S handily beats the ultimate M4, the GTS. Spec-wise, the GTS should be much faster than the 911...but in reality, it’s not.

And a drag race isn’t typically where a 911 shines.

While the 991.1 ran low 12s and trapped 118 or so, they were still very fast on track. If you were to equip a 991.1S with Cup tires it would be faster than the M4 GTS also. The new .2S is easily faster on summer tires.

The new 991.2GTS runs 11.2@125 mph and low 7:20s on the Ring. It has less power, less torque (worse power to weight) and less downforce yet crushes the M4 GTS...same for the S. As I’ve said, a base 991.2 with cups would easily equal or beat it.

Go up in the model range and the turbo/ turbo s is one of the fastest cars money can buy.

[KillrM3]

BMW's have never been the fastest car in a straight line so a drag race already proves what we already know. BMW's can do a multitude of things well not just one thing. What it seems like is a bunch of people here just like to quote numbers they read from a magazine or YouTube video then actually drive. If BMW is too expensive or not as good as a Porsche no problem go buy one and join the Porsche forums.

[KillrM3]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Here he is. I've always thought his name was dumb hence the Van instead of Vin

I also added a pic of one of his F&F rides with a GTS wing

That wing actually looks closer to a Viper ACR or GT3 RS.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

But then there’s this - where the 991.2 Carrera S handily beats the ultimate M4, the GTS. Spec-wise, the GTS should be much faster than the 911...but in reality, it’s not.

And a drag race isn’t typically where a 911 shines.

The "Ultimate M4", the GTS is not a drag spec car, and I take every Motortrend review with a grain of salt. I've seen them flip flop on so many cars based on reviews and click bait appeal- ex. Z06 is great in one review, then it is uncontrollable in another.

GTS body of work is actually impressive, if you look beyond Motortrend and C and D. As is the civic and zcp M3/M4 times compared to their competition.

Since we are internet reviewing, as I have posted before, here are a list of best times of cars on these tracks:

Hockenheim Short:



Sacshenring:



Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours:



How many of these cars are front engine, rwd, sedan based coupes?

fyi unless driver names are specified it is listed as unknown- see VIR track by c and d are all listed as unknown.

http://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-m4-gts

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But we're way off course from where the discussion started which is basic value.

The M3 CS does have some added content with real value, sure. But the car is simply not offering a $30k better track experience than a base M3. I've already presented a few reasoned arguments as to why.

If you want another, look at value within the existing portfolio of the M3 family. How about a ZCP M3? Let's say for the sake of argument that that one does indeed offer a $5k better track experience than a base M3. I can get on board with that. After all, you do get 19 more hp, which is probably just enough to be noticeable, and you also get some tweaks of the variety that CAM mentioned, not to mention wider rubber. And heck, it comes with some nice visual improvements on top of all of that. So, sure, that one isn't too hard to argue the value of.

But now you want me to pony up $25k (5x the price of the competition package) more for 10 more hp, and some more aesthetic changes that, while nice to look at sure, are really just a different take on the same car? To me it is easy to see why, by and large, the tone of this thread is that the numbers just don't work. It's just not an easy sell no matter how hard they are trying with the marketing campaign.

I think the reason why so few people agree those two situations are really equal is elementary.

With the 911, we don't have the situation where there is a variant/package that offers reasonable content: ~5% more power, some chassis tweaks, and some aesthetic upgrades for a less than 10% up-charge from the base model... *and then* another 911 variant that offers a tiny 2% additional bump in power, some marginal additional chassis tweaks, and some different aesthetic enhancements, for... wait for it... nearly 50% more over the price of the base car.

Instead, with a 911 what do you get if you pony up 50% more cash over the base Carrera? You get a GT3, that's what. If the M3 CS, offered content anything like what the GT3 has, would we even be having this discussion? No. If the 911 GT3 offered content anything like what the M3 CS does, would it have anywhere near the cult-like status it does? No way in hell.

You make plenty of good points, however, most of the people saying they wouldn't buy this are not making the claim based on performance*. It's simply a blanket statement. It wouldn't matter one bit if the CS had the performance of the M4 GTS and cost 100k.

That would matter to people who are on the fence, perhaps you, but not to most of the naysayers.

*When someone says they prefer an amish edition base 911 instead of the CS when it doesn't even come with a LSD I am 100% sure that this person is not interested in any performance metric. There will be no convincing them.

If you go over to the 'vs' subforum it's the same thing whenever people talk about the ZL1 1LE, Viper ACR, etc etc. Over and over again the comment is 'for that money I'd never buy a Camaro/Viper/Z06/whatever' and I believe the performance is completely out of the question. The ZL1 1LE is 73k and it beat the 991 GT3 RS in the lightning lap... but that thread will read almost the same as this one, which proves why the Viper is gone and why the GTS doesn't sell well: people have no interest in actual performance and instead want to be keyboard warriors about cars they are incapable of driving decently fast in the first place.

I am willing to bet money that it wouldn't matter what performance the CS/GTS have, most of the haters will be here hating.
What I would like to know is what they're doing in an M3 forum. An amish edition 911 is only 100k, surely if one can buy a 70k M3 they can stretch and buy the car of their dreams?

[dkhm3]

BUT-

Just to be clear, i'd drop my m3 any day of the week if I could get into a 991.2 S or GTS. It's more money, though, and value it isn't.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

But then there’s this - where the 991.2 Carrera S handily beats the ultimate M4, the GTS. Spec-wise, the GTS should be much faster than the 911...but in reality, it’s not.

And a drag race isn’t typically where a 911 shines.
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A drag race is precisely where the 911 shines. It's where the rear engine aids traction and gets insanely good 0-60 times.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You make plenty of good points, however, most of the people saying they wouldn't buy this are not making the claim based on performance*. It's simply a blanket statement. It wouldn't matter one bit if the CS had the performance of the M4 GTS and cost 100k.

That would matter to people who are on the fence, perhaps you, but not to most of the naysayers.

*When someone says they prefer an amish edition base 911 instead of the CS when it doesn't even come with a LSD I am 100% sure that this person is not interested in any performance metric. There will be no convincing them.

If you go over to the 'vs' subforum it's the same thing whenever people talk about the ZL1 1LE, Viper ACR, etc etc. Over and over again the comment is 'for that money I'd never buy a Camaro/Viper/Z06/whatever' and I believe the performance is completely out of the question. The ZL1 1LE is 73k and it beat the 991 GT3 RS in the lightning lap... but that thread will read almost the same as this one, which proves why the Viper is gone and why the GTS doesn't sell well: people have no interest in actual performance and instead want to be keyboard warriors.

I am willing to bet money that it wouldn't matter what performance the CS/GTS have, most of the haters will be here hating.
What I would like to know is what they're doing in an M3 forum. An amish edition 911 is only 100k, surely if one can buy a 70k M3 they can stretch and buy the car of their dreams?

shit, I was speccing a 991.2 for my next car-

regular white, perf pack plus with 18 way seats, pdk, sport chrono, sport tailpipes, heated multi function wheel, bose... $108,800

til you told me it had no diff, which is shocking for a car this expensive.

thanks for ruining my dream car!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

shit, I was speccing a 991.2 for my next car-
regular white, perf pack plus with 18 way seats, pdk, sport chrono, sport tailpipes, heated multi function wheel, bose... $108,800
til you told me it had no diff, which is shocking for a car this expensive.
thanks for ruining my dream car!

Sorry You have to move up to the S and then you can get it! It's funny it isn't even an option. I don't think they expect to actually sell any of them.

There are many more of these puzzling 'fun facts'. Like that the C63 didn't come with a diff unless you ordered the performance package. A torque monster with no LSD? What? Or that if you get the 991.2 GT3 with DCT you get an eLSD, but if you get the 6MT you're dropped down to a mechanical LSD. Why no love for the 6MT guys? Why can BMW M give you a eLSD on a 62k 6MT M3 but not Porsche?

[JRV]

Aren't slightly used M4 GTS's going for $100k? Wouldn't one just get the "superior" car that only has a few miles on it?

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You make plenty of good points, however, most of the people saying they wouldn't buy this are not making the claim based on performance*. It's simply a blanket statement. It wouldn't matter one bit if the CS had the performance of the M4 GTS and cost 100k.

That would matter to people who are on the fence, perhaps you, but not to most of the naysayers.

*When someone says they prefer an amish edition base 911 instead of the CS when it doesn't even come with a LSD I am 100% sure that this person is not interested in any performance metric. There will be no convincing them.

If you go over to the 'vs' subforum it's the same thing whenever people talk about the ZL1 1LE, Viper ACR, etc etc. Over and over again the comment is 'for that money I'd never buy a Camaro/Viper/Z06/whatever' and I believe the performance is completely out of the question. The ZL1 1LE is 73k and it beat the 991 GT3 RS in the lightning lap... but that thread will read almost the same as this one, which proves why the Viper is gone and why the GTS doesn't sell well: people have no interest in actual performance and instead want to be keyboard warriors.

I am willing to bet money that it wouldn't matter what performance the CS/GTS have, most of the haters will be here hating.
What I would like to know is what they're doing in an M3 forum. An amish edition 911 is only 100k, surely if one can buy a 70k M3 they can stretch and buy the car of their dreams?

Let’s see. First of all, a base 991.2 pulls 1.06 g on a plain summer tire. An M4 GTS on Cup tires can only pull 1.03 g and a regular M3/4/CP or CS can’t wven pull 1g...Car and Driver got .99 g. So much for that limited slip. When you have the mechanical grip a 911 does, it isn’t necessary, not at that power level. BTW the Mclaren 540/570 also don’t have limited slips st just under 200k.

As for the Zl1 1LE, it’s impressive it what it did, but end of the day is a 3900 lb car with 650 hp/torque. Power to weight is 6.0. The GT3 has a power to weight of roughly 6.5 and that’s a massive difference. The Camaro is easier to drive with all that torque. Yet despite its advantage of 150 hp and 300 torque it barely cut a faster lap. Both with an auto/DCT the GT3 is faster. As for price, if you don’t understand economies of scale, which I doubt you do based on your logic should tell you why that car is only 70k. The Mclaren also got beaten by a 160K AMG GTR.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

shit, I was speccing a 991.2 for my next car-

regular white, perf pack plus with 18 way seats, pdk, sport chrono, sport tailpipes, heated multi function wheel, bose... $108,800

til you told me it had no diff, which is shocking for a car this expensive.

thanks for ruining my dream car!

Read my post above wrt to limited slip in the base 911. Doubt you’d even know unless you were someone like Randy Pobst. And even he’d say you don’t need one.