Now w/ Exhaust Sounds -2016 911 370Hp 3.0 Turbo(base) vs M4

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

Surprise, surprise...I'm still disappointed. To me a $100k equipped sports car today need more power. With the 2015s you get a bigger engine for your money with the S, now you get some more boost. I dunno, the more I think of it the bigger the disappointment. They should have gone bigger and made the Carrera thouroughly spank the M4 segement. Now they will again be compared to these relative budget cars when it should be well out in the distance. Complacent and taking advantage of it's name and fans.

I don't agree seeing there isn't a better all around GT car in the world. Porsche isn't about straight line speed either despite how fast they are.
There really is no comparison with anything in the m4/c63 segment beyond somewhat in the straight line speeds. Any manufacturer can make a fast car for cheap. There is nothing special or innovative there. The hellcat and Gt500 are great examples of that and the m4 and c63 are just as much so. By your logic the m4 should be threatened because there are mustangs for 1/2 the price that can beat it.
If you're looking for a special car, that is connected and truly world class in every conceivable way, that's what the 911 is giving you. And you can be sure these will be plenty fast in a straight line. My guess, 121-122 mph trap speed for an S. Even the current S is plenty fast and far faster than anything you'll need. But the way it carves a corner or laps a track is only surpassed by a few other cars and the high model 911s.

[MPerformance211]

This has always been my contention with Porsche. Spec a brand new base 991 with normal options and you are at $100k+. Whether it's worth it or not is not the point. I have ordered a 16 M4 that will run me $68k at invoice plus $1k and that includes dct, adaptive sus, 1
9's and extended leather. The 991 is not a $30k better car. Just my opinion but I personally don't find 911's that attractive unless they have a wing of some sort on the rear. And Porsche rapes you for the cost of that....like everything else.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by 997usa

The 911 and the 991 in particular are probably the best cars on the road. Regardless of power comparison, the build quality, the handling, the timeless styling are, IMO, outstanding.

Originally Posted by 997usa

I have always been a BMW fan and have had my fair share of 316i-Z4-740i-M5-M4 and also my fair share of 911's (997.1, 997.2, 991) and I can say that while I love the M4, the 991 is a tantalizing package.

Agreed.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

I don't agree seeing there isn't a better all around GT car in the world. Porsche isn't about straight line speed either despite how fast they are.
There really is no comparison with anything in the m4/c63 segment beyond somewhat in the straight line speeds.

Let's look a bit more into that about straight line speed being the only area the M4 can compete with the mighty 991 Carrera.

Drag strip:
------------
M4 competitive: Yes

Going around corners aka track.
------------------------------------
Let's see how the Carrera fair on the ring vs. the comp. pack M4 which will likely be available before or at a similar time as the 991.2. My guess is that it shaves +5s off the current time and end up around 7.45. Maybe the base Carrera can do that but not much more so it will be very comparable track capabilities.

M4 competitive: Yes

Creature comforts.
---------------------
Passenger space, big win for the M4
Luggage space' big win for the M4
Tech, win for the M4 ( I-drive is the best system out there IMO ).

Price
-----
Big win for M4.

Dealer backup, free maintenance for 4 years, win for M4


Looks
-------
Win for Porsche.


There are also important intangibles as "feel" where Porsche edges out the M4 but is it enough for the almost double price tag? I dunno but I do know that if the base Carrera had an engine more worthy of the chassis and significantly stronger than the M4 it would have been no reason to argue. Now it feels a bit meh with this announcement. I expected more.

[andy92782]

Originally Posted by e92V8

Indeed! The 911 no longer has anything to set it apart,

Not sure about that. It's the only car you can buy with a flat-6 engine hanging out behind the rear axle. Nobody else makes 'em like that. A different flavor of Kool-Aid for sure, but it's pretty tasty.

[mister2d]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

This has always been my contention with Porsche. Spec a brand new base 991 with normal options and you are at $100k+. Whether it's worth it or not is not the point. I have ordered a 16 M4 that will run me $68k at invoice plus $1k and that includes dct, adaptive sus, 1
9's and extended leather. The 991 is not a $30k better car. Just my opinion but I personally don't find 911's that attractive unless they have a wing of some sort on the rear. And Porsche rapes you for the cost of that....like everything else.

First off. Porsche doesn't rape you on anything, it's all consensual.

Second, try driving/owning one. Then you'll understand. Believe me, I used to be the same way. Sit in an M4 for a week, then drive a 911 for 10 minutes. HOOKED!

There's just nothing like them on the road, short of hypercars.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

Let's look a bit more into that about straight line speed being the only area the M4 can compete with the mighty 991 Carrera.

Drag strip:
------------
M4 competitive: Yes

Going around corners aka track.
------------------------------------
Let's see how the Carrera fair on the ring vs. the comp. pack M4 which will for likely be available before or at a similar time as the 991.2. My guess is that it shaves +5s off the current time and end up around 7.45. Maybe the base Carrera can do that but not much more so it will be very comparable track capabilities.

M4 competitive: Yes

Creature comforts.
---------------------
Passenger space, big win for the M4
Luggage space' big win for the M4
Tech, win for the M4 ( I-drive is the best system out there IMO ).

Price
-----
Big win for M4.

Dealer backup, free maintenance for 4 years, win for M4


Looks
-------
Win for Porsche.


There are also important intangibles as "feel" where Porsche edges out the M4 but is it enough for the almost double price tag? I dunno but I do know that if the base Carrera had an engine more worthy of the chassis and significantly stronger than the M4 it would have been no reason to argue. Now it feels a bit meh with this announcement. I expected more.

You're entitled to your opinion.

I know this though. Knowing Porsche the base will be likely close to the outgoing S model and the S model will be midway between a current S and the GT3.

The new S they said runs 7:30 on the Ring. The base is likely 7:40 so those are both quite fast.

When it comes to price, there are many reasons the Porsche is more expensive and its a product that is much more high end and they sell far sell of them. The quality is better and I also think the look is far better too.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by solstice

Let's look a bit more into that about straight line speed being the only area the M4 can compete with the mighty 991 Carrera.

Drag strip:
------------
M4 competitive: Yes

Going around corners aka track.
------------------------------------
Let's see how the Carrera fair on the ring vs. the comp. pack M4 which will likely be available before or at a similar time as the 991.2. My guess is that it shaves +5s off the current time and end up around 7.45. Maybe the base Carrera can do that but not much more so it will be very comparable track capabilities.

M4 competitive: Yes

Creature comforts.
---------------------
Passenger space, big win for the M4
Luggage space' big win for the M4
Tech, win for the M4 ( I-drive is the best system out there IMO ).

Price
-----
Big win for M4.

Dealer backup, free maintenance for 4 years, win for M4


Looks
-------
Win for Porsche.


There are also important intangibles as "feel" where Porsche edges out the M4 but is it enough for the almost double price tag? I dunno but I do know that if the base Carrera had an engine more worthy of the chassis and significantly stronger than the M4 it would have been no reason to argue. Now it feels a bit meh with this announcement. I expected more.

WIn on looks of 991? Disagree. This is too subjective to have in a factual comparison. I do agree on all other points though.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

You're entitled to your opinion.

I know this though. Knowing Porsche the base will be likely close to the outgoing S model and the S model will be midway between a current S and the GT3.

The new S they said runs 7:30 on the Ring. The base is likely 7:40 so those are both quite fast.

They are fast but I think the M4 ZCP will be competitive with the base Carrera when it comes to track duty and lap times. It remains to be seen though. Under rating and sand bagging do happen. Let's hope this is the case here.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

They are fast but I think the M4 ZCP will be competitive with the base Carrera when it comes to track duty and lap times. It remains to be seen though. Under rating and sand bagging do happen.

I would hope an m4 Comp that is going to have well over 500 hp could run close to one with more than 100 less but don't see it happening. Think of this, even the current 991 base is much faster around a track than an m4 is currently despite the deficit in hp and tq. Chassis is much more important and there is no comparison there. Plus add in longevity on the track and the difference is even more obvious.
I doubt even the m4 GTS at what 150k will be able to beat a base 991.2. I also doubt it will touch a cayman GT4 for twice the price. Then again the has already beaten the 458, z06 and several other monster cars at Laguna seca.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

I would hope an m4 Comp that is going to have well over 500 hp could run close to one with more than 100 less but don't see it happening. Think of this, even the current 991 base is much faster around a track than an m4 is currently despite the deficit in hp and tq. Chassis is much more important and there is no comparison there. Plus add in longevity on the track and the difference is even more obvious.
I doubt even the m4 GTS at what 150k will be able to beat a base 991.2. I also doubt it will touch a cayman GT4 for twice the price. Then again the has already beaten the 458, z06 and several other monster cars at Laguna seca.

Ok, now it's getting to be nonsense. Bye-bye

[Phillie9284]

Base 991.1 350hp vs. m4 430hp

I love my m3, but you have to respect 1.4 second advantage with 70-80 less hp.

[M4GTS]

Yeah, but Marino can't drive... :-)

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Phillie9284

Base 991.1 350hp vs. m4 430hp

I love my m3, but you have to respect 1.4 second advantage with 70-80 less hp.

I think we all respect it but do we as potential 991 buyers love and embrace that 80 hp gap or is it the chassis we love? ( It was easier to forgive with a NA engine vs FI ). However it's done the M4 is competitive to the much more expensive Carrera and I don't think it should be and that's on Porsche not BMW of course. And this is not by giving up creature comforts or build quality so it's not at all like comparing to a Z28 type of car. The M4 and Carrera are both good daily drivers with track capabilities from European quality brands.

[M4GTS]

The M4 would be a lot faster with a 295 or 305 cross section rear tyre - you'd be surprised the difference it can make. Additionally, some spring adjustment really helps in the cornering.

My M4 has a better front end than the GT4, just lacks traction out of slower corners.

[Phillie9284]

Originally Posted by solstice

I think we all respect it but do we as potential 991 buyers love and embrace that 80 hp gap or is it the chassis we love? ( It was easier to forgive with a NA engine vs FI ). However it's done the M4 is competitive to the much more expensive Carrera and I don't think it should be and that's on Porsche not BMW of course. And this is not by giving up creature comforts or build quality so it's not at all like comparing to a Z28 type of car. The M4 and Carrera are both good daily drivers with track capabilities from European quality brands.

I think it's the chassis we love, and Porsche is charging a premium for that 60 years of refinement.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by kdphan

400hp is a lot of power for 99% of the population (I know I just made that statistic on the fly). Unless you're on a track, you're not using the full 400hp on the streets.

In terms of HP figures alone, $100k for the base 911 is hard to swallow compared to a Mustang GT that has more than 400hp for less than $35k.

That's more HP for 3x less

But what about the overall package? Driving emotions, feedback, build quality, and some other random variables that makes a P-car, a P-car?



Hell, an M3 isn't that great of a value when compared to a Charger Hellcat.

700HP for about the same price as a base M3.

The truth.

Originally Posted by M3guy3

let me say that again. When spending 90 grand on a new 2016 model car that is labeled as a performance car with 370HP is kind of a joke.

seeing how a base corvette, base V8 mustang, base M3, base c63, etc.. all have more powerful engines. I dont give a shit what some track time says, most people buying a 911 or M3 are not tracking the cars. I probably hit the track once a year, so for the 99% of the time i would rather have more power. BUT that doesn't mean i want a hellcat. I just cant see my self spending 90k on a 911 when i know i would have more fun in a Z06 or M3.

although if i had the money, i would buy a GT3 or turbo like i said.

thats why they are overpriced, because most people are buying them for everything reason but performance.

You hit the track 1 day a year and would only drive a porsche gt3 or turbo? how is buying a GT3 and never stretching its legs buying it for its performance?

[mister2d]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

Call it what you want. I've owned a 996 Turbo,
997 turbo a 997S and a CaymanS. I know all about the brand. The only one of those bought brand new was the CaymanS. I've driven a 991 and 991S. They're nice but not $30k+ nicer for a car that will see a track 2-3 times per year.

But obviously I am not comparing cost. In this price range I get what I want after driving it. And since I'd never ever pay cash for a brand new car, your $30k+ number would never be realized by me.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

I think we all respect it but do we as potential 991 buyers love and embrace that 80 hp gap or is it the chassis we love? ( It was easier to forgive with a NA engine vs FI ). However it's done the M4 is competitive to the much more expensive Carrera and I don't think it should be and that's on Porsche not BMW of course. And this is not by giving up creature comforts or build quality so it's not at all like comparing to a Z28 type of car. The M4 and Carrera are both good daily drivers with track capabilities from European quality brands.

I think you do give up build quality in the BMW. My m3 felt and lacked quality even with full leather.
As for the track, the BMW will not hold up lap after lap after lap like a Porsche will. I have witnessed it first hand in my own cars.
Again, if straight line power is all you're after, there are better options. Hell, even in the m3 segment you can get the same tech, better straight line speed and and better handling/track times from other cars in the segment.
I am not making assumptions but have you owned a Porsche? There is something quite special that got me hooked from my first drive.
It seems you are hung up on HP numbers rather than how the HP is delivered. Unlike the m3/4 the 911 will put it down 100% better than any M car or anything else can. Plus the way Porsche outperforms what the paper numbers tell you is something that should tell you the hp should be taken with a grain of salt.
If I told you the 991.2 was going to trap 118 mph would it matter how much hp it has or do you care about telling people you have XXX hp? Add in the fact that with only 379 hp will be 2-3 seconds a lap faster on 2 minute lap, those are staggering. I prefer a car that performs rather than saying I have xxx hp.
Reiterating, these cars will perform and be the precision weapons they always have been. The 991 chassis is something that no matter how many manufacturers try, can't match.

[kdphan]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

The truth.



You hit the track 1 day a year and would only drive a porsche gt3 or turbo? how is buying a GT3 and never stretching its legs buying it for its performance?

[solstice]

Did you also notice that the 991 added 100 lbs going turbo?
The gap to the M4 is now less than 150 lbs using both cars certified DIN weights.

So not only is the S55 highly impressive in it's power,technology and materials vs the 991 it's weight considering it's size is even more impressive. Objectively the case for the 991 is no doubt rather weak. Subjectively is another story. I'd rather have the 991 if I could choose for free but when you add cost Porsche make it VERY hard to see the value. An M3 on the other hand remain one of the best values out there.

[M3SSY]

Can you get one in a manual?

Will be a sweet car to own in a few years!

can't wait to see what the tuners & track rats do with them...