BMW ///M Club Montreal Cars & Coffee Meet

[Detailer]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Oh i think i get what you are saying... H&R are lower than Eibach Pro. For F82:

- Eibach Pro Kit, E10-20-037-01-22, 0.8"/0.4" (F/R)
- H&R Sport Springs, 1.5"-1.8" (F/R)

That's crazy and way low for an older gentleman like me BTW, VAG alignment is indeed $100 vs $399 at the dealer. I just got a quote back for replacing the passenger wishbone.

PS: miss our club members, maybe we can plan a COVID friendly get together ?

I don't know what dealer charges $399 for a wheel alignment, but I work at BMW Montreal Centre (previously called Canbec) and our alignment menu price is $159.95

I'm lowered on Swift springs and spacers on all 4 corner. Love the way it drives and looks.

My alignment was obviously done at my job and very happy with the results even though I would need a 0.3 degree arm (as CanAutM3 was talking about) to correct camber on one side to bring it perfectly into spec, but I don't mind as it's not a major issue at all to me.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

...
I did my latest alignment at GTA Auto Performance in St-Hubert. The owner is an old friend of mine and he recently purchased a super fancy alignment machine. I am always amazed what a good alignment does to a car.

I just had my wishbone replaced and I was wondering if CanAutM3 can explain a bit BMW F8x alignment ? I have attached a sheet from a BMW dealer (color) and from VAG (B&W) and both are different ranges and different from the M4 specs.

I know this stuff is complex, but just the basics ... like for day to day driving, what is a "good" alignment job? All measurements have different ranges and i gather as long the adjustment(s) renders the toe/camber within those ranges, all is good?

Q1: I notice that rear driver side camber is always higher than right side, why?
Q2: Toe seems to be equal between L/R & Front/Rear, but higher for rears ?
Q3: Does any of this matter and how do settings differ for track application ?

PS: I know this is in the wrong forum, but less noise is better ...
Comparison of "After Measurements" from both samples:

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

I just had my wishbone replaced and I was wondering if CanAutM3 can explain a bit BMW F8x alignment ? I have attached a sheet from a BMW dealer (color) and from VAG (B&W) and both are different ranges and different from the M4 specs.

I know this stuff is complex, but just the basics ... like for day to day driving, what is a "good" alignment job? All measurements have different ranges and i gather as long the adjustment(s) renders the toe/camber within those ranges, all is good?

First observation is that BMW and VAG do not show the same units on their alignment sheets, so you cannot do a direct comparison. BMW uses degrees and minutes while VAG uses degrees and decimal.

Second, I'd say neither did a great precision job. My experience is that most shops don't bother going back and forth between the adjustments to get all the specs as close to nominal, usually they just do one pass and as long as all the specs are within tolerance they leave it at that. It takes patience do to a good alignment job because changing one adjustment will have an effect on another setting, so the mechanic needs to go back and for the between adjustments until all the parameters are as close to nominal as possible.

Third, toe front and rear for both BMW and VAG are pretty bang on. However, rear camber is not within spec for either. Rear camber should be 1deg50min +/- 5min or 1.83deg +/- 0.08deg. Front camber is not adjustable.

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Q1: I notice that rear driver side camber is always higher than right side, why?

"Always" is big term here . This is just a coincidence in your case, there is no technical "reason" for it besides how the tech set it, it could have been adjusted either way.

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Q2: Toe seems to be equal between L/R & Front/Rear, but higher for rears ?

Toe-in front and rear helps with stability, you want a bit more toe-in in the rear for stability under braking. And yes, you absolutely want left and right toe settings to be equal, otherwise you have a car that rolls like a crab (sideways).

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Q3: Does any of this matter and how do settings differ for track application ?

Since on the street you are mainly going straight while at the track you spend a fair bit of time cornering at the limit, you definitely want different alignment for the track. This mainly to optimize tire wear. I use more front camber (-2.5deg) and less rear camber (-1.7deg) than the BMW spec. The BMW rear camber spec is set for understeer to make the car "safer" for lower skilled drivers. I use the stock toe settings front and rear, but some track enthusiasts use front toe-out to improve turn-in response (I find it makes the car too darty).

Since VAG set your rear camber to less than BMW spec and closer to my track setting, I'd say you'll have better rear tire wear but a car that is a bit more tail happy. I'd say your rear camber might be a bit too low.

[aboulfad]

CanAutM3 you are awesome sir thanks for the detailed easy to understand explanations! you confirmed my suspicions, is that many places incl the dealer that charges $400 are just lazy...

So in the end, I should be ok w non standard rear camber settings that may cause my car to throw its tail around i will do the math to normalize to BMW units and update the table, I did notice the different units but wasn’t sure.

[aboulfad]

CanAutM3 I've updated the table above to use same units deg/mn. Did i do the math correct ? My VAG Rear camber L/R -1.39˚/-1.33˚ = -1˚23'/-1˚19' that's way too low compared to BMW's specs? and yours of -1.7˚= -1˚42'.

So that's basically optimizing for reduced inner tire wear but less cornering ability ? i guess a test drive is in order 😄

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

CanAutM3 I've updated the table above to use same units deg/mn. Did i do the math correct ? My VAG Rear camber L/R -1.39˚/-1.33˚ = -1˚23'/-1˚19' that's way too low compared to BMW's specs? and yours of -1.7˚= -1˚42'.

So that's basically optimizing for reduced inner tire wear but less cornering ability ? i guess a test drive is in order 😄

Correct. That’s why I said your rear camber is a bit too low.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Correct. That's why I said your rear camber is a bit too low.

I guess I'll just live with it, it's not like I am doing a lot of driving and no track for me

[momo1M]

Any meets soon

[Benzima]

Originally Posted by momo1M

Any meets soon

I would like to go to meet or organize one soon, but with the current Covid-19 situation it will be irresponsible IMHO.

[aboulfad]

So what do you guys think of the new M3/M4 styling? Me definitely don't like the M3, M4 so so... something odd about the front, side and rear that doesn't jive. Everyone is focused on the front grill but I feel that rear and side is also less to desire.

The interior is fun and new, but what's with that piece separating legs in the bucket seats?

Miss you all and hope you are all ok

[Benzima]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

So what do you guys think of the new M3/M4 styling? Me definitely don't like the M3, M4 so so... something odd about the front, side and rear that doesn't jive. Everyone is focused on the front grill but I feel that rear and side is also less to desire.

The interior is fun and new, but what's with that piece separating legs in the bucket seats?

Miss you all and hope you are all ok

I might be one of the few that actually likes the new innovative design. I find it aggressive and audacious.

The interior and the new seats are amazing too.

For 88k CAD$ for the Competition, I find the value proposition amazing considering you get a 500hp car!

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by Benzima

...
For 88k CAD$ for the Competition, I find the value proposition amazing considering you get a 500hp car!

Oh it's a steal :

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Benzima

I might be one of the few that actually likes the new innovative design. I find it aggressive and audacious.

The interior and the new seats are amazing too.

For 88k CAD$ for the Competition, I find the value proposition amazing considering you get a 500hp car!

For me, the new G8X is a no go. I could live with the looks even if I am not in love with them, but a wheelbase longer than an M8, 300-400lb more than my M4, the DCT replaced with a 8AT and the price hike are all huge dissapointments. As far as cost, when you add a few "must have" options, it comes out to more than what I paid for my M4cs with little to no performance gains. I'll be looking elsewhere when its time to replace my car .

[Benzima]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

For me, the new G8X is a no go. I could live with the looks even if I am not in love with them, but a wheelbase longer than an M8, 300-400lb more than my M4, the DCT replaced with a 8AT and the price hike are all huge dissapointments. As far as cost, when you add a few "must have" options, it comes out to more than what I paid for my M4cs with little to no performance gains. I'll be looking elsewhere when its time to replace my car .

You are right for the costly options to add on.

I am old school and still drive manual so I don't bother the DCT/8AT tranny. Weight and wheelbase may be an issue as you pointed out, but I still think the G8X will surpass the F8X in performance.

The CS is another beast but they won't be too far apart IMHO. We will see when the test drive at Nurburgring comes out.

Nonetheless, this new M3 creates a lot of debates

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

... I'll be looking elsewhere when its time to replace my car .

Porsche? That seems the next logical choice for you albeit less practical and $$$ when the new 8AT came out I recall some info about performance ias equal if not better as the DCT. Not sure how or if accurate.

I am definitely keeping my F82 until maintenance becomes a burden then who knows, maybe a smaller new M2 model? Hoping it doesn’t become larger, heavier and uglier

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Porsche? That seems the next logical choice for you albeit less practical and $$$ when the new 8AT came out I recall some info about performance ias equal if not better as the DCT. Not sure how or if accurate.

I am definitely keeping my F82 until maintenance becomes a burden then who knows, maybe a smaller new M2 model? Hoping it doesn’t become larger, heavier and uglier

A planetary auto is less performance oriented than a DCT, that is a given. All upper end sport cars use DCT, there's a reason for that. The clutches that select the gears inside a planetary auto are not stout enough to handle a WOT power shift and the engine power needs to be momentarily interupted during the shift, which is not the case with DCT. The DCT can even recuperate the inertia from the engine rpm drop to generate a boost of accelerstion during the shift. A planetary auto also has much more rotsting mass than a DCT, which increases drivetrain inertia. I recently had the opportunity to drive an F90 M5 on track for multiple sessions. While the M5 is an impressive car overall, my biggest dissapointment was with the 8AT, it makes the drivetrain feel heavy and sluggish compared to a DCT or PDK.

Yes, Porsche will likely be next car. I am looking at the 992 turbo, that's a hell of beast while still remaining decently practical as 4-season daily driver. I am sad and dissapointed with the new direction ///M has taken, where they used to offer a great blend of track performance with daily practicality. It now seems they have shifted that bias more towards luxury, comfort and "looks" to appeal to a larger audience. BMW used to offer better track performance through lighter weight, DCT, and many small engineering details. Now, there is no more technological differentiation between the ///M offerings and their competition.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

... it makes the drivetrain feel heavy and sluggish compared to a DCT or PDK.

Yes, Porsche will likely be next car. I am looking at the 992 turbo, that's a hell of beast while still remaining decently practical as 4-season daily driver. I am sad a dissapointed with the new direction ///M has taken, where they used to offer a great blend of track performance with daily practicality. It now seems they have shifted that bias more towards luxury, comfort and "looks" to appeal to a larger audience

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, a definite step back from 3rd gen DCT. I wonder if it’s economies of scale for the change.

Your last comment hits home for the hardcore M enthusiasts which sadly are an extremely minute % of the addressable M market. I bet a very small % have taken their M’s to track to really appreciate the ultimate driving machine.

PS: Porsche in our winters? Come on

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, a definite step back from 3rd gen DCT. I wonder if it’s economies of scale for the change.

Your last comment hits home for the hardcore M enthusiasts which sadly are an extremely minute % of the addressable M market. I bet a very small % have taken their M’s to track to really appreciate the ultimate driving machine.

PS: Porsche in our winters? Come on

579hp AWD

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

579hp AWD

I meant it’s so low... but if I ever cure my passenger car motion sickness, I call dibs for a session with you at LCMT

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

I meant it’s so low... but if I ever cure my passenger car motion sickness, I call dibs for a session with you at LCMT

It's not any lower than my M4cs on MP-HAS

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It's not any lower than my M4cs on MP-HAS

That tells me you know it so well that’s it’s on your next car purchase radar I just watched few videos, didn’t know it’s a 911 992? Anyways it’s a beautiful mean driving machine!

[aboulfad]

Hi guys, it's been a while, hope you are all doing well during these interesting times. Last week we took our niece to do some fun activities at Mont-tremblant (including the luge "race"). Then for old times sake, we dropped by the LCMT track but sadly we weren't allowed to go in, it was a Porsche day event. Are some of you still going to LCMT ? Stay safe and maybe one day we meet again f2f.