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      09-05-2017, 10:23 PM   #1
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Larger frame turbo options??

It's crystal clear we've hit a power WALL running stock frame turbos. It's why despite building the heads/motor/or whatever else tricks you can muster there's only a 30-40 hp delta between owners that just bolt in upgraded turbos and shops with "race cars" running them with fully built setups. Not much of a difference at all. It's also why you have HUGE torque numbers down low yet they CAN'T hold the torque near redline. Big drop offs. The stock frame exhaust turbines simply choke these motors up top and there's not much we can do about it...

So the question is, WHEN are we going to finalllly see a vendor or someone simply develop larger and better exhaust manifold allowing for LARGER frame turbos OR a large single turbo setup? So that we can push well past this BS ~700whp barrier that nearly ALL the "upgraded" turbos share?
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      09-06-2017, 12:18 AM   #2
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I believe Vargas is developing something called the Game Changer turbos. They alluded that it is like their N54/N55 Game changer turbos, which are custom turbos and turbo manifold.
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      09-06-2017, 01:23 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
Especially when you sell your car.
Relevance? I'll be picking up another M4 in the near future... a DCT this time thou as I'd want to get the most of my larger turbo setup on the track*

Quote:
Originally Posted by milk242 View Post
I believe Vargas is developing something called the Game Changer turbos. They alluded that it is like their N54/N55 Game changer turbos, which are custom turbos and turbo manifold.
Yes I recall Vargas mentioning this, I would love to know more about it!? I know they've made well over 800RWHP in their stock block N54 motors using it!
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      09-06-2017, 08:51 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M4 PWR View Post
Relevance? I'll be picking up another M4 in the near future... a DCT this time thou as I'd want to get the most of my larger turbo setup on the track*

Yes I recall Vargas mentioning this, I would love to know more about it!? I know they've made well over 800RWHP in their stock block N54 motors using it!
But the DCT will bore you to sleep behind the wheel and you'll sell the new car Happened with me on my second E9x.
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      09-06-2017, 01:17 PM   #5
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I'd imagine there isn't a whole lot of space in the bay for anything bigger than stock, or it would already have been available from somebody.
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      09-06-2017, 03:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motodude310 View Post
I'd imagine there isn't a whole lot of space in the bay for anything bigger than stock, or it would already have been available from somebody.
Thats not true, the N54 and E9X has almost the identical setup space wise and kits have been made to flow well over 800WHP on those cars... the S55 is superior in many ways than the base N54 motor... it's pathetic we STILL only have these same turbo options for this platform 3 years after its release... :/
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      09-06-2017, 04:25 PM   #7
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Are the exhaust head flange designs the same as the N54?
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      09-07-2017, 11:11 PM   #8
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There is room to grow a little bit. We'll have some more to talk about early 2018.
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      09-07-2017, 11:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
There is room to grow a little bit. We'll have some more to talk about early 2018.
I'm in on this let's keep this post alive!!
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      09-13-2017, 05:14 PM   #10
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Think the stock internals can handle more on bigger frame turbos?
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      09-18-2017, 02:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedDemon7 View Post
Think the stock internals can handle more on bigger frame turbos?
Definitely, in fact larger framed turbos will make more power while putting less pressure on the internals than stock framed ones by moving the powerband to the right on the charts ...
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      09-18-2017, 04:38 PM   #12
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moving the power band to higher RPM's is a good thing for the S55
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      09-18-2017, 04:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M4 PWR View Post
Definitely, in fact larger framed turbos will make more power while putting less pressure on the internals than stock framed ones by moving the powerband to the right on the charts ...
I think you mean less torque by shifting the powerband to the right depending on the turbo used
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      09-18-2017, 09:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
The pressure on the internals is exactly the same. 20 psi is 20 psi. Air temp and exhaust flow will change, improving breathing and probably increasing fuel (higher air density) but there is no reduction in internal stress.
Sort of.

Remember, boost is a measure of restriction. 20 psi is NOT 20 psi, in that with a ported head, high flow exhaust, you've decreased restriction thus you'll run more power at the same boost level -this is reflected in higher wgdc; it's not magic, you're simply moving more air. For example in the N54 world, our GC exhaust manifolds outflow stock by a significant margin, we end up making the same power as stock frame designs with a couple of pounds less boost. Less restriction.

Remember, an engine is just an air pump.

All else equal though, removing restrictions is free power.

Chris
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      09-18-2017, 10:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
But the DCT will bore you to sleep behind the wheel and you'll sell the new car Happened with me on my second E9x.
Then you were not driving it right. After 30yrs of stick shift cars including two M3s, I got bored losing to new-technology DCT cars.
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      09-19-2017, 12:53 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
Sort of.

Remember, boost is a measure of restriction. 20 psi is NOT 20 psi, in that with a ported head, high flow exhaust, you've decreased restriction thus you'll run more power at the same boost level -this is reflected in higher wgdc; it's not magic, you're simply moving more air. For example in the N54 world, our GC exhaust manifolds outflow stock by a significant margin, we end up making the same power as stock frame designs with a couple of pounds less boost. Less restriction.

Remember, an engine is just an air pump.

All else equal though, removing restrictions is free power.

Chris
Thank you! I get frustrated when people say/think this
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      09-19-2017, 11:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
We?re not talking about a ported head. We?re not talking about exhaust. I know what a motor is and isn?t. And I know where the restrictions are.

He said you put less stress on the motor with a larger frame turbo. And no...you don?t.

As far as the motor is concerned, within the cylinder, 20 psi is 20 psi. You can?t have more or less air within a cylinder at 20 psi one way or another. If you have more, then it will be forced in at a higher pressure. Hence it?s not 20 psi anymore is it.

To your point, yes, when you port the head and make things more efficient, and clear the exhaust to get more air out, VE goes up. Stock for stock, you slap a larger turbo in there, it won?t be the magic pill he thinks it will be.

The turbo is the restriction. Not the motor. Yes a larger frame will pump more air, but it will pump the same pressure with less effort because of it. Less effort, less heat. More O2. More power.
You're thinking of the system as static. You'd be correct in your example if we were just pushing air into a sealed cylinder then compressing/igniting it, but that's not the best way to think about it. A better way of thinking about it is dynamic, remember, it's an air pump.

The example I always give people is picture yourself pumping up a tire with a bicycle pump and keeping it at 20 psi while there is a pinhole in the tire. It's pretty easy to do since you're not moving much air.

Now lets put a 1/2" hole in that tire. You'd be unable to keep 20 psi in it no matter how fast you pumped. Your pressure has gone down in this case but the air FLOW has increased.

Power potential is a function of how much air you flow. Air + fuel = good times for us.

An engine is an air pump; anything you can do on any aspect of that air pump to improve efficiency or encourage flow will result in less RESTRICTION, thus 20 psi is not 20 psi when speaking of flow.

The longevity of an engine can be tied to several things, all else equal, sure boost could be one of them, but with new turbos/etc. all else isn't necessarily equal. Your actual stock engine "this is a good idea" wheel-torque limits aren't going to change much (if held to same RPM) though.

Chris

Last edited by Chris@VargasTurboTech; 09-19-2017 at 11:27 PM..
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      09-25-2017, 07:16 AM   #18
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I try to put it in lamens terms as much as possible for these yuppy bimmer owners with at times little to ZERO hands on experience actually building turbos cars to little avail... :/

The restriction in the upgraded stock-framed offerings (i.e. pure turbos, turbo lab, vtt, etc) is primarily that their EXHAUST TURBINES are too small to keep up with the volume of air related to maintaining 30+ psi boost pressure above 6-and-7K+rpms. Along with compressors that, although they CAN boost upto 30+psi in the S55, have efficiency maps that drop like rocks at the CFM levels related to the afformentioned boost and rpm levels. To assist the power curve and *take it to the next level* larger framed turbos are REQUIRED. That is why ALL these "built" turbo shop cars are making only a few HP more than civilian road cars on stock motors and far less work aside from the bolt on turbo upgrades. New exhaust manifolds are required for this hence that where shops like VTT come in. Everbody out there loves to use the term "game changer" for every bullshit mod they develop for the M4's from intakes to exhaust tips But if VTT develops a proprietary exhaust manifold for the S55 motor as Chris claims they're on the verge of doing, it'd not only truly be a "game changer" for taking this platform to the next level in power and performance, but it would also represent a WORLDS FIRST for this motor & platform!
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