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      08-12-2017, 08:41 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Erm, something that gives off a hell of a lot of heat......maybe like a particulate filter that needs high heat regeneration cycles?

Seriously people, CFRP cannot stand high heat, so you cannot put something very hot near it. It sounds to me like there isn't the space to fit this new emissions filter without it being almost wrapped around the driveshaft. But it gets hot, so a steel shaft used instead.
How embarrassing it must be for all those poorly trained and ill-informed BMW engineers that spent untold millions of euros on developing and testing the CF driveshaft for this car. If only they had checked with the experts on BMW forums...
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      08-12-2017, 08:43 AM   #178
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The issue here is not a CF vs Steel driveshaft. Who the fuck cares? No one will know the difference.

The real issue is BMW's ongoing cost cutting at the expense of the cars they produce. The trend forward is paying more money for less of a car.
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      08-12-2017, 09:21 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by RowanBuds View Post
4DRS55
Thanks brother
Built date will be September 2017, so hopefully I don't get shafted


Group buy on cf driveshafts
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      08-12-2017, 10:10 AM   #180
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At the end of the day, I believe this is cost related. Of course BMW could engineer a solution for the emission requirement and retain the cf driveshaft, it may just cost them more. Combine that with the additional cost of the cf driveshaft itself, and they saw an opportunity to reduce their costs while using the emission requirement as the justification. It is a disappointment since it was one of the cool selling points for this model.

Last edited by dailym3; 08-12-2017 at 10:15 AM..
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      08-12-2017, 10:19 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
So much for LCI 2.0.

Yeah now we'll have a LCI 2.1
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      08-12-2017, 10:20 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by py0413 View Post
Don't be surprised that the next generation M3/4 comes with M-performance automatic transmission, oh wait, isn't that already coming to the new M5 ?
Such boring times we live in eh? When did people stop caring about driver engagement and started caring only about numbers and lap times? Literally every m3 has been worse than the last as far as driving pleasures concern. But as long as the power figures increase no one cares apparently
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      08-12-2017, 10:26 AM   #183
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Who da FK cares really?! Non of this will stop any of us future M car owners from buying(well maybe). If you planned to go elsewhere then do so and tell your story, but please stop your damn bitching about every god-damn-thing you don't like about the current changes.
Would you wear a ring out of aluminum and not gold but it would still cost and weight as a gold ring?
If it looks like gold, acts like gold... why not?
This is something I can control. If this is the route they're going, then you have NO say in the matter. If they did this in 2014, would you own a current M car?
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      08-12-2017, 10:42 AM   #184
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The biggest thing to me is this. If it truly isn't a big deal and no detriment to performance..........then why not put it in to the M4 CS as well.
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      08-12-2017, 10:42 AM   #185
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Just an FYI for everyone. The dirty secret is that DI gas engines produce a lot of very small soot particles (Worse than diesel but diesel produces a lot more of the larger particles). The gas DPF is is an interesting development because its going to cost more money for modders to delete the emissions equipment.
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      08-12-2017, 11:00 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by jaehshim View Post
The F80 was already a "restricted", downgrade M car to begin with...nothing surprising here...tuned turbo I6, electric steering, the proud oled light technologies, larger volume, made best for everyone in your commute
You also forgot significantly faster and better handling, even more so on track. Not that you'd know anything about it if all you do is commute in it.
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      08-12-2017, 11:01 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by gabriox View Post
We all know that this is complete Bullocks by BMW. The only true M cars in my opinion is the 1m, M2, M3 E90/92 and M3 E46.
Yep and all of them had CF driveshafts.
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      08-12-2017, 11:05 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
The biggest thing to me is this. If it truly isn't a big deal and no detriment to performance..........then why not put it in to the M4 CS as well.
Yeah. The fact that this doesn't affect the CS or the GTS tells you everything you need to know. :
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      08-12-2017, 11:12 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DRS55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RowanBuds View Post
4DRS55
Thanks brother
Built date will be September 2017, so hopefully I don't get shafted


Group buy on cf driveshafts
GTS and CS will still have CF DS, so part will still be available as I listed the part number and price many posts above. For comparison, the steel shaft in the F30 MRSP is $954.13, online price of $763.30 compared to the CFK of MRSP $3,139.82, street price of $2,511.86. That's a $2,185.69 difference, doubt the new fuel emissions filter costs this much. But, BMW won't reduce the price by $2,000.
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      08-12-2017, 11:14 AM   #190
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Whoooohooo, good thing for not waiting any longer...my 18 goes into production next week.
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      08-12-2017, 11:19 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
I have a few specific questions to those who obviously have more insights (haven't read anything from them on this thread so far):
  1. When is the exact point of time where F80 are going to be product with the steel driveshaft? (the words "November" and "gradually" are not really precise, here)
  2. When is the exact point of time where this emissions addon is going to be built in? ("a later point in time" is even worse!!)
  3. Does the driveshaft affect performance or responsivness of the engine?
  4. Does the emmissions addon affect sound?
  5. Last but not least (less important, since it's just out of curiosity): What's the real reason BMW is doing this to a car that's half a year from EOP? Or does "gradually" mean that the F80 is secretly gonna be left out of all this?

Please PLEASE give us some hints on these questions!!
Hopefully some others can assist amid all the hand wringing and tears and wailing going on.

With respect to the " November and gradually "

These terms are being used specifically in order to be vague. There have been 68,000 vehicles made.. I would assume that BMW either has a production limitation... perhaps say they only contracted for 75,000 of these parts or perhaps their vendor has declined to produce more for them. This isn't any different than switching brand of tie rod during production. Running changes are made all the time.

They know that the end of the stock is coming and will end approximately in November. There aren't going to spec a particular date or week as fanatics will already be getting dodgy about what production month their vehicle is made.

Some will want to get a pre 11/17 car and others may actually prefer to get a car with the new driveshaft.. etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TRZ06 View Post
I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet, but...

Maybe it's because the CFDS was so light and rigid , thats what was causing the jerky throttle starts.

I know in mine, it happens very easily, and once it starts , you have to completely back off the throttle until it stops. Mine is a DCT BTW, and happens in all throttle mappings under the right conditions.
I very much agree that a natural harmonic like this may be EXACTLY the issue that BMW is concerned about.

Another person indicated EXTREME heat. It's very possible that they have determined that the environment under a vehicle is such that it DEGRADES the CFDS over time, causing issues with longevity.

Indeed this could also simply be a cost cutting measure , however I really don't think so.

Will the steel driveshaft offer less PERFORMANCE than the CFDS version ?

Minimally. About the same loss in performance for M mirrors. If you have a car on order, it shouldn't change your mind on purchase.

Finally , another person mentioned that FORD has done the same thing with one of their vehicles. I'm betting that the " bling " doesn't really offer a cost vs performance benefit and may actually have a negative for the owner over time in some fashion ( higher failure rate etc )
How many people that have a pre 11/17 F8x who get into a new lease for a MY18+ after this date will switch out the drive shafts before returning the off lease car? I can see this happening with F82&F83 owners if the labor isn't that much to swap out as EOP isn't until 2020. Next BMW FS end of lease inspections will include checking the drive shaft.
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      08-12-2017, 11:19 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DRS55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RowanBuds View Post
4DRS55
Thanks brother
Built date will be September 2017, so hopefully I don't get shafted


Group buy on cf driveshafts
GTS and CS will still have CF DS, so part will still be available as I listed the part number and price many posts above. For comparison, the steel shaft in the F30 MRSP is $954.13, online price of $763.30 compared to the CFK of MRSP $3,139.82, street price of $2,511.86. That's a $2,185.69 difference, doubt the new fuel emissions filter costs this much. But, BMW won't reduce the price by $2,000.
Do you have the specs on Weight difference ?
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      08-12-2017, 11:23 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DRS55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RowanBuds View Post
4DRS55
Thanks brother
Built date will be September 2017, so hopefully I don't get shafted


Group buy on cf driveshafts
GTS and CS will still have CF DS, so part will still be available as I listed the part number and price many posts above. For comparison, the steel shaft in the F30 MRSP is $954.13, online price of $763.30 compared to the CFK of MRSP $3,139.82, street price of $2,511.86. That's a $2,185.69 difference, doubt the new fuel emissions filter costs this much. But, BMW won't reduce the price by $2,000.
Do you have the specs on Weight difference ?
No, as realOEM.com doesn't list specs, but a rough estimate could be based on the shipping weight. This makes me want to schedule a M Studio tour next month during my F83 ED to ask the M engineers about this. I will bring this up during my BMW Driving Experience training.
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      08-12-2017, 11:30 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
BmwAG has fiduciary duty to its owners/shareholders to maximize profits. If the company's accountants figured out a way to squeeze costs out of a part without detrimentally affecting safety/sales/branding of the car, they better take advantage of the savings. All other considerations are noise.

Those that are unhappy with the change have a viable recourse. They can choose not to buy the car.
I don't believe that shareholders will scream if the engineering team says "we need to secure our future by providing, good, reliable and benchmark vehicles; otherwise your profits will run only for a while."

On the other hand profits can be obtained through a well built vehicle that differentiate in every aspect from ordinary, than from two cheap 1 series made in China. It is BMW's choice what they will do, but I think that they should be very careful.
Any individual with a clear mind can understand that. Once the BMW changes its brand perception from luxury/performance to ordinary the damage is done. It is very hard to build a reputation and so easy to loose it.

The true BMW fan base still scream, talk, complain, hoping that their voices will be heard and that BMW will keep some attributes untouched. If BMW continues with this trend of "profits matters", it is just a matter of time until they will be full of cheap vehicles and cheap customers.
Once gone, to bring people back will be very hard, most vehicles can perform well today, and for that reason BMW should not look for a budget fan base but work hard to maintain and increase a true performance fan base because they are the loyal ones that secure a repeat business.
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      08-12-2017, 11:35 AM   #195
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There's a false equivalency argument here that I want to call out.

This is not the same as something like - moving away from hydraulic steering. Moving away from that saved weight and also reduced parasitic power losses to the engine. Maybe you think the trade off isn't worth it - and that's cool if that's how you feel but it is at least an attempt to get better performance.

Moving from a CF driveshaft to a Steel one is just a downgrade. Whether big or small it's simply a cost driven downgrade. They didn't want to do the real engineering necessary to get the particulate filter in without downgrading the driveshaft.

That's it. And it's disappointing.
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      08-12-2017, 11:39 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F83 View Post
There's a false equivalency argument here that I want to call out.

This is not the same as something like - moving away from hydraulic steering. Moving away from that saved weight and also reduced parasitic power losses to the engine. Maybe you think the trade off isn't worth it - and that's cool if that's how you feel but it is at least an attempt to get better performance.

Moving from a CF driveshaft to a Steel one is just a downgrade. Whether big or small it's simply a cost driven downgrade. They didn't want to do the real engineering necessary to get the particulate filter in without downgrading the driveshaft.

That's it. And it's disappointing.
Unless more information comes to light, I agree. And here is the rub, the price won't go down.

It's like buying a TV with 4k for $2000, then them selling the same tv for the same price but it only comes in 1080p. Sure, most people might not notice the difference, but you know it's inferior.
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      08-12-2017, 11:46 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Gibson6594 View Post
Unless more information comes to light, I agree. And here is the rub, the price won't go down.

It's like buying a TV with 4k for $2000, then them selling the same tv for the same price but it only comes in 1080p. Sure, most people might not notice the difference, but you know it's inferior.
You forgot one thing... the slap in the face when TV manufacturer tells you they developed a technology to make it as good as 4k even though its only 1080p.
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      08-12-2017, 11:52 AM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Erm, something that gives off a hell of a lot of heat......maybe like a particulate filter that needs high heat regeneration cycles?

Seriously people, CFRP cannot stand high heat, so you cannot put something very hot near it. It sounds to me like there isn't the space to fit this new emissions filter without it being almost wrapped around the driveshaft. But it gets hot, so a steel shaft used instead.
How embarrassing it must be for all those poorly trained and ill-informed BMW engineers that spent untold millions of euros on developing and testing the CF driveshaft for this car. If only they had checked with the experts on BMW forums...
Try reading.....BMW are having to move to a steel shaft due to a modification.....an additional exhaust component being introduced to these cars. An exhaust component that is known to get very hot when regenerating 'burning off the particulate matter build up'. The clever engineers back in 2012 didn't have a crystal ball. Get it?
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