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      09-29-2013, 11:35 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
What's your take on Mercedes Magic Body control? Looks quite like the cats pajamas. But $$$
Looks promising (didn't Lotus experiment with a system similar years ago?) - but this cracks me up: http://www.worldcarfans.com/11309266...ickens-to-show
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      09-29-2013, 12:03 PM   #46
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I remain highly skeptic to a system that relies on two components (springs and dampers) working in tune where only one of them is adaptive. After this discussion and Racer20's inputs though I will try to drive both before ordering which I wasn't going to. Let's see how communicative,predictable,consistent and strong this latest active setup feels. I have no doubt it will be smoother.
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      09-29-2013, 01:00 PM   #47
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Does anybody know what variables the EDC on the E9X M3 controlled? Was it just compression and rebound damper tuning?
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      09-29-2013, 04:06 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhoggm3 View Post
Does anybody know what variables the EDC on the E9X M3 controlled? Was it just compression and rebound damper tuning?

Yes, I believe so.
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      09-29-2013, 07:56 PM   #49
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So, if springs, bars, etc. all stay the same and only the shock valving is changed, then it's going to be difficult for more than one setting to truly be optimized. At least, that's true based on the somewhat limited suspension tuning knowledge I've accumulated over the years.
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      09-29-2013, 09:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhoggm3 View Post
So, if springs, bars, etc. all stay the same and only the shock valving is changed, then it's going to be difficult for more than one setting to truly be optimized. At least, that's true based on the somewhat limited suspension tuning knowledge I've accumulated over the years.
No, because damping is a function of mass, spring rate, and frequency (velocity). Even though mass and spring rate stay the same, the excitation frequency of the body and wheels are constantly changing due to road conditions. So no passive damper can really be called "optimum." For a given mass, spring rate, and road input, there is a specific damping level will result in a critically damped system. Different road inputs will result in either an over damped or under damped system.

Adaptive systems know the spring rate and mass, and can figure out the excitation frequency from the sensors on the car, and apply the correct level of damping in order to achieve critical damping on a wider range of road inputs.

Adaptive systems come one step closer to being able to provide true "skyhook" control (imagine the body of the vehicle being connected to the sky and remaining flat and level, with the wheels perfectly absorbing bumps under the car) Mercedes magic body control is yet another step.

Last edited by Racer20; 09-29-2013 at 09:47 PM..
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      03-21-2014, 11:09 PM   #51
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Is the M Adaptive suspension worth it?

Ive got a deposit down for the first order spot available for a M4 at my local dealership. They asked me to circle all the options I want and i'm not sure if the Adaptive suspension is worth adding?
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      03-21-2014, 11:16 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caruso0644 View Post
Ive got a deposit down for the first order spot available for a M4 at my local dealership. They asked me to circle all the options I want and i'm not sure if the Adaptive suspension is worth adding?
I can't comment on how good it is, but as far as I know boys in garages everywhere are trying to beat the M teams abilities. I took the option of fitting that one in, just because if it sucks I can sell the car to someone who has not had one, but when has something as important as suspension from bmw sucked? It will take time to learn how to play with it, but as an option that's one of the things I would not miss out on.

Take my word on this, go and rent a dodge minivan for 2 weeks, and then all you will be thinking about are suspension, transmission, hp. I think I will never ever complain about a car again, but as a learning experience that was priceless.
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      03-22-2014, 01:52 AM   #53
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I've enjoyed it on my 2011 E92 M3. It's definitely a little jittery in the firmest of 3 modes. Nice to leave it on comfort when just cruising and firm setting for spirited cornering.
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      03-22-2014, 03:47 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IS350
I've enjoyed it on my 2011 E92 M3. It's definitely a little jittery in the firmest of 3 modes. Nice to leave it on comfort when just cruising and firm setting for spirited cornering.
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      03-30-2014, 12:46 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Adaptive systems know the spring rate and mass, and can figure out the excitation frequency from the sensors on the car, and apply the correct level of damping in order to achieve critical damping on a wider range of road inputs.
Racer 20, What is your input in regards to Changing the Spring rate or changing the springs to lower the heigh of the car with the Adaptive system ?
Can the Adaptive System cope with these changes or does the Adaptive system Fails ?
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      03-30-2014, 06:59 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Brick View Post
Racer 20, What is your input in regards to Changing the Spring rate or changing the springs to lower the heigh of the car with the Adaptive system ?
Can the Adaptive System cope with these changes or does the Adaptive system Fails ?
It depends. There's no way to judge an objective "failure" with the ride performance. Lowering the ride height will cause the shocks to run at a higher pressure, and you'll be more likely to bottom. Stiffening the rate will cause the car to deviate from the model and the damping calculation will be a bit off. But it's very difficult to know how much, and what the actual effects will be, until you either try it or simulate it.

The car will not behave as BMW intended anymore. You may or may not notice the trade-offs, and you may or may not like it. The closer you stay to stock ride height and rate the less likely you are to mess things up.
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      03-30-2014, 07:57 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
It depends. There's no way to judge an objective "failure" with the ride performance. Lowering the ride height will cause the shocks to run at a higher pressure, and you'll be more likely to bottom. Stiffening the rate will cause the car to deviate from the model and the damping calculation will be a bit off. But it's very difficult to know how much, and what the actual effects will be, until you either try it or simulate it.

The car will not behave as BMW intended anymore. You may or may not notice the trade-offs, and you may or may not like it. The closer you stay to stock ride height and rate the less likely you are to mess things up.
I could care less to lower the car height, But if i can have the suspension more firmer for better response, then I would be happy. I never worked on Adaptive systems, Most of the time I used passive Mono tube coilovers systems which on average is 40 way adjustable.( Spring rates, dampening, rebound, camber and ride height)
With the coilovers I can then fine tune to perfect the cars handling capabilities.
I have read all your post and understand what you have stated about the Adaptive system, But do you think this system will out perform a good coil over system?
And if I to change the spring rate to lets say going harder then stock do you think the system will cope with the change or will all the sittings get a little firmer.
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      03-30-2014, 09:36 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Brick View Post
I could care less to lower the car height, But if i can have the suspension more firmer for better response, then I would be happy. I never worked on Adaptive systems, Most of the time I used passive Mono tube coilovers systems which on average is 40 way adjustable.( Spring rates, dampening, rebound, camber and ride height)
With the coilovers I can then fine tune to perfect the cars handling capabilities.
I have read all your post and understand what you have stated about the Adaptive system, But do you think this system will out perform a good coil over system?
And if I to change the spring rate to lets say going harder then stock do you think the system will cope with the change or will all the sittings get a little firmer.
There are too many variables to answer that question. Stiffer springs will reduce weight transfer and make the car respond faster, but it will also change the natural frequency of the sprung and unsprung mass as well as the overall roll, heave, and pitch balance of the car. Most likely you will end up with reduced body roll and quicker response, but the balance of the car might not be as good, and there will likely be some ride trade-offs.

There's no way to know how the algorithm is tuned and what it is or isn't capable of accommodating, nor do we know how much headroom is left in the damper itself.

I also don't know what you mean by "outperform." Laptimes? Fun-to-drive? Ride quality? The FACT is that an adaptive system has much wider bandwidth on the ride and handling spectrum than a passive system. But it'd designed around the stock chassis and spring rates. If you want to go beyond that, you could probably find an aftermarket coil-over set-up that will provide better laptimes, but you will loose the bandwidth that allows for a good ride comfort.


The only way to know for sure is to buy the springs and try them, and if you don't like them, sell them. You wouldn't be out that much time or money.

Last edited by Racer20; 03-30-2014 at 09:44 AM..
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      03-30-2014, 03:35 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Stiffer springs will reduce weight transfer
Wouldn't the weight transfer reduction offered by stiffer springs be in fact negligible?

I understand that there is a slight weight tranfer that occurs when the car rolls due to Cg moving about the roll center. But IMO, this amount is negligible compared to the weight transfer generated by the cornering forces.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 03-30-2014 at 04:23 PM..
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      03-30-2014, 06:24 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Wouldn't the weight transfer reduction offered by stiffer springs be in fact negligible?

I understand that there is a slight weight tranfer that occurs when the car rolls due to Cg moving about the roll center. But IMO, this amount is negligible compared to the weight transfer generated by the cornering forces.
Sorry, you are correct. I wrote that on my way out the door this morning and didn't put much thought into it. The left to right weight transfer is not significantly affected by stiffer springs. Increasing stiffness on one end of the car will increase weight transfer on that end, but reduce it on the opposite end by the same amount.
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      03-30-2014, 10:56 PM   #61
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Racer20,
How much more aggressive will the Adaptive system be over the standard.
Lets say Adaptive in sports plus setting, will that be same as a standard passive suspension when it comes to handling, body roll, rebound. If not what setting will be close to a standard passive system.
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      03-31-2014, 06:57 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Brick View Post
Racer20,
How much more aggressive will the Adaptive system be over the standard.
Lets say Adaptive in sports plus setting, will that be same as a standard passive suspension when it comes to handling, body roll, rebound. If not what setting will be close to a standard passive system.
This has already been answered in this thread or the other, but the passive system will most likely be somewhere between normal and sport. It will ride better than sport but handle and steer better than normal.
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      03-31-2014, 07:12 AM   #63
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Now there H&R Sport and Sport Plus springs for the M3 e92 EDC suspention. Will it be better for the M adaptive suspention to install the lower springs?
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      04-08-2014, 06:53 PM   #64
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Racer20, thanks for all your posts on this thread. It's very interesting to hear from someone who works on this stuff.
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      04-08-2014, 10:04 PM   #65
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Great input Racer....Nowwww you just need to put together a little book on all your posts.
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      04-09-2014, 12:07 PM   #66
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Racer20... Got questions.

Do adaption damper systems typically adjust each damper individually? If so, does the control system look at yaw rates and include that factor into adjustments that are made?

I been searching for stuff to read to get a better education on this and haven't found anything but basic marketing information. Do you have suggestions?
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