Track tire wear without camber plates?

[NOLATom]

I've read through some of the threads on camber plates and was set on getting them along with some other suspension mods before I go back on the track, but the person I spoke to at the shop had never added camber plates to an F80 before and sounded hesitant.

With stock tires and suspension, I made it through two track days. With that said, I plan on getting either some NT01's or R888's, but my question is how many track days can you get out of the tires without camber plates versus having camber plates and running at a negative camber? Is there a huge difference.

Thanks,

Thomas

[F3IGHTY]

Why...

Why new tires already? Why r-comps immediately? Why use a clearly compromised street focused alignment at the track?

If you're going to drop over a grand on tires, do yourself a favor and get an appropriate alignment to keep them wearing evenly and providing you with the peak traction you've paid for. Camber plates are cheap, easy to install, and make a massive difference.

[NOLATom]

Originally Posted by F3IGHTY

Why...

Why new tires already? Why r-comps immediately? Why use a clearly compromised street focused alignment at the track?

If you're going to drop over a grand on tires, do yourself a favor and get an appropriate alignment to keep them wearing evenly and providing you with the peak traction you've paid for. Camber plates are cheap, easy to install, and make a massive difference.

I definitely think the plates are worth it, but the dealership was only comfortable doing all the other work I asked for and not the camber plates and that's 5 hours away from me. I just didn't know how much of a difference it would make, but based on the PM I received, it sounds like a lot so I will work on finding someone to do the work.

[Signature Wheel BMW]

Originally Posted by NOLATom

I definitely think the plates are worth it, but the dealership was only comfortable doing all the other work I asked for and not the camber plates and that's 5 hours away from me. I just didn't know how much of a difference it would make, but based on the PM I received, it sounds like a lot so I will work on finding someone to do the work.

You live in NOLA, there's plenty of race shops there. Don't waste your money and time at the dealer to set your car up for the track. Try NOLA Sport (auto racing shop) maybe? Only use the BMW dealers for the free service and warranty work, all other service go to an independent race shop that specializes in Euro cars.

[slavearm]

Honestly the plates are not really necessary if you are running something like an NT01 at the track. I beat the hell out of them without plates and they wear fine. I think this has been extremely over-exaggerated by people that don't actually track the car. And yes, I am out 5-8 times per year.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by slavearm

Honestly the plates are not really necessary if you are running something like an NT01 at the track. I beat the hell out of them without plates and they wear fine. I think this has been extremely over-exaggerated by people that don't actually track the car. And yes, I am out 5-8 times per year.

Then why do the majority of the track rats have camber plates?

I'm out about 18~20 days per season. During the 2015 season, I had no camber plates on the car because none were available at the time. I was burning though my square NT01s in 4~5 track days with rotation between the corners and even flipping them on the rims. Throwing away tires that were corded on the shoulders but still had plenty of tread left was quite frustrating .

Having now the camber plates and having moved to a staggered setup (which prevents front-to-rear tire rotation), I am now getting 8~10 days out of the tires. That is a big difference to the wallet. The camber plates paid for themselves after just one set of tires.

[jeffucd]

Originally Posted by slavearm

Honestly the plates are not really necessary if you are running something like an NT01 at the track. I beat the hell out of them without plates and they wear fine. I think this has been extremely over-exaggerated by people that don't actually track the car. And yes, I am out 5-8 times per year.

I think it comes down to how hard you are driving it/how much heat and force you are putting into them. If you're going 6/10ths then I agree with this. But above that and you're going to burn them out quickly if you don't have plates. I had three days on new RE-71R's (all at Sonoma) and didn't notice much wear. Was running around 2:05's. My last trip out I was turning 1:57s on the stock suspension setup and the shoulders wore away after 3 sessions.

[C-Mu]

Originally Posted by jeffucd

I think it comes down to how hard you are driving it/how much heat and force you are putting into them. If you're going 6/10ths then I agree with this. But above that and you're going to burn them out quickly if you don't have plates. I had three days on new RE-71R's (all at Sonoma) and didn't notice much wear. Was running around 2:05's. My last trip out I was turning 1:57s on the stock suspension setup and the shoulders wore away after 3 sessions.

I think the above sums it up perfectly. My thoughts were to wait and see what kind of wear I experience before pulling the trigger on camber plates. I've got three days on NT-01s and barely notice any extra wear on the outside edge but overall, they've gotta a lot of life left in em. I'll wait until the fronts are shot before I decide if plates are necessary but for now, I dont think they're needed unless your pushing 9/10ths. For most of us, maybe 8 days without plates and 10 days with plates would be my guess.
I hope that helps.

[slavearm]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Then why do the majority of the track rats have camber plates?

I'm out about 18~20 days per season. During the 2015 season, I had no camber plates on the car because none were available at the time. I was burning though my square NT01s in 4~5 track days with rotation between the corners and even flipping them on the rims. Throwing away tires that were corded on the shoulders by still had plenty of tread left was quite frustrating .

Having now the camber plates and having moved to a staggered setup (which prevents front-to-rear tire rotation), I am now getting 8~10 days out of the tires. That is a big difference to the wallet. The camber plates paid for themselves after just one set of tires.

I'll address both points. 1st, I don't think the majority do, and you know as well as I do, many people also think lowering the car 7inches and dropping dang near solid dampers on the car will improve their laptimes.

2nd, I think they will help some people sometimes. My car sits at at -2 on the front after my last plate-less alignment job. I have 6 days on my current 275/305 NT01 set, and there is a only slightly worse wear on the outside edges of the front tires. The variables of course, driver, and suspension setup will dictate if the plates are necessary for you or not. I run xtreme speed and speed ventures events in SoCal, I would say less than 1 in 3 of the F8xs are running plates (i usually say hi and talk shop with the other drivers).

In any event if they help you go for it. My point stands that they absolute omfg you need camber plates to run at the track tagline is exaggerated.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by slavearm

I'll address both points. 1st, I don't think the majority do, and you know as well as I do, many people also think lowering the car 7inches and dropping dang near solid dampers on the car will improve their laptimes.

2nd, I think they will help some people sometimes. My car sits at at -2 on the front after my last plate-less alignment job. I have 6 days on my current 275/305 NT01 set, and there is a only slightly worse wear on the outside edges of the front tires. The variables of course, driver, and suspension setup will dictate if the plates are necessary for you or not. I run xtreme speed and speed ventures events in SoCal, I would say less than 1 in 3 of the F8xs are running plates (i usually say hi and talk shop with the other drivers).

In any event if they help you go for it. My point stands that they absolute omfg you need camber plates to run at the track tagline is exaggerated.

Maybe you got lucky with the camber your car came with off the factory floor. -2.0 deg is fairly decent but it is at the extreme of the allowable stock specification (-1.48 +/- 0.5 deg). I run -2.5deg with the camber plates for a rather even temperature across the tread. Front camber is not adjustable on the F8X chassis, and whatever it came off the factory floor is what you get. Mine came with about -1.2deg, which is simply not sufficient for my type of track use.

And when I mention track rats, these are not the "occasional" trackers (i.e. Less than 6-8 days/year). I prefer keeping the car as stock as possible. I'd much rather focus on the "driver mod" to improve lap times. That is the whole point of me getting an ///M car to serve the dual purpose as a practical DD and track toy, it barely needs any mods to be track ready. Camber plates are not about lap times, but rather about reducing the cost of consumables; and all my ///M s since my E46 have needed camber plates to get decent track tire life.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by slavearm

Honestly the plates are not really necessary if you are running something like an NT01 at the track. I beat the hell out of them without plates and they wear fine. I think this has been extremely over-exaggerated by people that don't actually track the car. And yes, I am out 5-8 times per year.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Then why do the majority of the track rats have camber plates?

I'm out about 18~20 days per season. During the 2015 season, I had no camber plates on the car because none were available at the time. I was burning though my square NT01s in 4~5 track days with rotation between the corners and even flipping them on the rims. Throwing away tires that were corded on the shoulders by still had plenty of tread left was quite frustrating .

Having now the camber plates and having moved to a staggered setup (which prevents front-to-rear tire rotation), I am now getting 8~10 days out of the tires. That is a big difference to the wallet. The camber plates paid for themselves after just one set of tires.

NT01s without camber plates are a waste. You'll be scrubbing the outside edge of those tires and they'll be corded in no time.

Even with street tires on the track, you'll get better turn in, less srubbing/understeer, better tire wear - WITH camber plates.

I change my camber from street settings to track settings at the track. It takes about 10 minutes. I get great and predictable tire wear on both my street tires and my track setup...

Strongly suggest not listening to slavearm.

[NOLATom]

Thanks everyone for your input. There is a track in my back yard and I plan on using it every chance I get means I bought an HPDE insurance policy for a year and it's just outright addictive.

The shop did come back and say they can install the camber plates now, so I have my fingers crossed. All of my parts are on order now (Dinan tension strut ball kit, Dinan rear suspension link kit, Dinan adjustable anti-roll bar, M Performance HAS Coilovers) and that just leaves me needing to order the Ground Control camber plates today.

[F3IGHTY]

Originally Posted by slavearm

Honestly the plates are not really necessary if you are running something like an NT01 at the track. I beat the hell out of them without plates and they wear fine. I think this has been extremely over-exaggerated by people that don't actually track the car. And yes, I am out 5-8 times per year.

You'll always find a counter-point on these boards. Glad your setup is working fine for you, but your wear patterns are an anomaly. Unless you are tip-toeing around the track, kinematically its not possible to wear any tire evenly on this platform even at -2 front camber, let alone stock is typically -1.5ish.

Like you, I'm also cognizant of message board 'group think' and empirically test changes myself before drawing conclusions and making recommendations.

I ran 4 track days on the F80 without plates. Two on MPSS, Two on AD08R. Every session had dramatically uneven tire temps (using a pyrometer), as much as 60F higher on the outside shoulders with the MPSS. After installing plates to -2.5 and doing two more events it's much better, but next time the car is on the rack it's going to -2.8.

Data is what will move the bar on this board - particularly within the track section. We should all try to back up our findings with some measurements as we look to optimize this chassis. We did it a lot on S2Ki and there's a handful of national champions on that board now.

My setup:
F -2.5, 0 Toe, 7.6 caster
R -2, 3/32 toe
JRZ RS Pro 550/800 @150psi cold loaded
AD08R @ 35psi hot - Carcass temps (O->I) 180-170-160F +-10
Carbotech XP12/10
I run low 1:40s at Laguna and near sub 2 at T-Hill east for a sense of pace.

[slavearm]

Originally Posted by larryn

NT01s without camber plates are a waste. You'll be scrubbing the outside edge of those tires and they'll be corded in no time.

Even with street tires on the track, you'll get better turn in, less srubbing/understeer, better tire wear - WITH camber plates.

I change my camber from street settings to track settings at the track. It takes about 10 minutes. I get great and predictable tire wear on both my street tires and my track setup...

Strongly suggest not listening to slavearm.

If you experience understeer in this car, I highly suggest you locate the skinny pedal on the right. I'll post a picture of my current set of NT-01s when I get home later. They are apparently by some miracle of divine intervention, not corded yet.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by slavearm

If you experience understeer in this car, I highly suggest you locate the skinny pedal on the right. I'll post a picture of my current set of NT-01s when I get home later. They are apparently by some miracle of divine intervention, not corded yet.

I don't experience any understeer, but with camber and fatter stickier tires, you have much less chance of it, at even higher entry speeds.

If you don't have added negative camber and they are wearing evenly, you're babying the car.

Rears take care of themselves. They wear evenly with stock camber, though I run -2 degrees for better cornering.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by larryn

Rears take care of themselves. They wear evenly with stock camber, though I run -2 degrees for better cornering.

Just shows how our cars roll off the factory with alignments that are all over the place. Mine came with -2deg in the rear. I had it reduced to -1.6.