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      07-05-2012, 10:22 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
You are totally right this chance is near zero (F80M3) ... BUT there is still an very (very) little possibility for an really big surprice ... BMW has strong links with the london olympics and this year is the 40-birthday of the M-GmbH - both are special and unique events which never come back in this combination ... what an great possibility the present an great Sportscar with Myth and Tradition.
Like what?


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      07-05-2012, 10:27 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
Nice to hear!

One important question as you are one who see it in real ... according to all spypic we have seen, the F32 4er and the F82 M4 would get an greenhouse in fastback style ... would you say the back of the car under the tarp has this style or was it more an limo greenhouse like the F30 ... if it was the second alternative than it could be really the F80 M3.

One in an other forum quotes that it was no 2 on the strip, but an Z ... so there was written FIZ - standing for BMW Group Forschungs- und InnovationsZentrum - instead of F82.
I really couldn't say what the back end looked or was shaped like under the tarp, sorry...

When I get home tonight I'll see if I took any photos of this, but I don't think I did.

Last edited by robbieracer; 07-05-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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      07-05-2012, 12:27 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by southlight View Post
There's no way the F80 M3 will be unveiled in 2 or 3 months, let alone the F82. So assumed that info is correct we're likely looking at an E92 M3 edition (CSL?).


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Well. You can't tell if it is an F or an E. So E92 is possible.

I actually think an E92 CSL is the best bet on whats under there
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      07-05-2012, 02:37 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
There is zero chance its a csl. First, no way they have been putting any resources into the e9x platform over the past year as the work on the f80 is what is priority.

Second bmw would not undercut their GTS/CRT buyers and image by coming out with a CSL and smashing those two.

Not to mention the GtS is a CSL. It is way lighter and has a more powerful engine specific to the GTS/CSL. Nothing left to lighten in a CSL without doing extensive chassis lightning which obviously is not happening.

To go any lighter than a GTS you need to be starting with an all aluminium chassis if you want to maintain that size of car with that technology. With its steel frame you are limited by what weight you can reach.
+1. Also, Just because there is some writing on the side of the tarp doesn't mean that has anything to do with what is covered. If so i would think they would tape it up a little better. My bet is that its an F80 M3. And I don't see why its so unbelievable that they would be introducing it in a couple months. I could see the F80 coming out as a MY 2013.
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      07-05-2012, 04:03 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
There is zero chance its a csl.
I would suspect South may have a bit more direct info to work with than you, but I could be wrong. "Zero chance" is a big statement, especially given everything is speculative. South, can you reveal any more about the E92 M3's last waltz?

Nice to see Swamp and E46 Love still banging away on the forum. Wasn't so long ago when we were speculating on the S65 redline based on a blurry spy photo.
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      07-05-2012, 04:36 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
Its again also quite obvious this is the f30 coupe, not the f80 m3. Just makes sense-an early sneak peak at the coupe before introduction at the olympics. Sometimes people overthink and the wheels are likely an M-sport package
The coupe would be an F32
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      07-05-2012, 04:41 PM   #139
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Even I do not know what it is. Because as I stated... BMW hold these clandestine gatherings all the time either for internal evaluation or external clinic trials , recently in the past week they have been showing the X4 along with the current X6 to show that bloodline and appeal the smaller X4 will have.

The BMW 4er Coupe is not released during the Olympics as will not , some Super sports car. As I continuously say it is not the time.

Appeal of super GT's is limited and the traditional largest markets for these cars (US and Europe) have not fully recovered from the economic crisis. These cars operate in a more exclusive niche market and do not make significant returns from initial investment (unless you are VAG and rebody an existing car).

Which is why many Sports car and supercar makers are diverting their attention to Super-SUV's. SUV's in general have proved far more resillient during the economic crisis with key markets such as China, Russia, Brazil and India generating huge demand for SUV's over supersports cars which is why many manufacturers are focusing on Super-Luxury SUV's because they generate huge profits. Super-Luxury SUV's are also entrenching on the premium luxury sedan market.
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      07-05-2012, 05:02 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sward View Post
Well. You can't tell if it is an F or an E. So E92 is possible.

I actually think an E92 CSL is the best bet on whats under there
The E92 CSL is what you see in the M3 GTS and M3 CRT. To make a CSL requires board approval. BMW M GmbH developed an E92 CLS in '09 and the board did not green light the project.

Instead what M did was build cars via BMW Individual (Does not need board approval as they were built at M in Garching) using the R&D that was to be the E92 M3 CSL. That is the real story...

The final hurrah of the E92 will be market specific and the M Performance accessories will play a key roll as will BMW Individual Paint. There has been no significant development on the dead E9X chassis as all R&D focus is on the F80, the next X5M, as well as the M6GC which will see S63tü Phase II.

M is also key in developing a lot of other product (M Sport kits, suspension, M Performance Automobiles, supporting some of Alpina) so their hands are full with enough things for the future let alone a nostalgia project.

Let's not forget that the "competion package" is really all the US saw with the E46 generation so why expect anything different? And Europe has already seen two CSL based limited editions... the car is already where it needs to be at this point in its life cycle.
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      07-05-2012, 06:01 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
This statement shows you would be a terrible fit for an m3. Or any car for that matter. Next time you drive, drive in a sport fashion and tell me how much time the tach spends at 1200 RPM-4k RPM? Problem virtually zero. Once you nail the throttle and revs to 7k on an n55, it drops to 5k-5500rpms when it switches gears and when pushing the car, you never actually see the meet of the curve below 5k so it is quite pointless to have your peak power and torque there.

It is ok for part throttle lazy driving but that is it. If you are willing to push the pedal and flip a gear, than there is way more power on tap with the m3 if you keep the RPMs in the performance range which you should be doing if you are testing a car for how "fast" it feels
YOU seriously sound completely dumb by stating "I'm not a fit for any car". I bought what I wanted. For the money I spent on my f30 I could have picked up a no option e92 m3 but I chose not to. I'll wait for the f82. Please don't try to explain to me how to drive and where and what a power band is, I've owned a 720hp track car for 9 yrs. but thanks anyway.

You just need to get with the times and get over the fact that NA M3 days are a thing of the past. BMW is adapting and it's simple as that. I'm sure that BMW will put enough power on tap for the new m3/4 to satisfy even your silly self.
Some of the greatest track cars are turbo, evo, subi sti, Nissan gt-r.

If you're not interested in FI then pick up another e46 m3 a perhaps an e92 m3 and keep those for the rest of your days, maybe you can crown yourself the last na m3 purist.

Ok peace now Im not trying to argue with ya...
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      07-05-2012, 06:20 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
There's no way the F80 M3 will be unveiled in 2 or 3 months, let alone the F82. So assumed that info is correct we're likely looking at an E92 M3 edition (CSL?).


Best regards,
south
Like the E9x M3 needs another "Edition" model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
There is zero chance its a csl. First, no way they have been putting any resources into the e9x platform over the past year as the work on the f80 is what is priority.

Second bmw would not undercut their GTS/CRT buyers and image by coming out with a CSL and smashing those two.

Not to mention the GtS is a CSL. It is way lighter and has a more powerful engine specific to the GTS/CSL. Nothing left to lighten in a CSL without doing extensive chassis lightning which obviously is not happening.

To go any lighter than a GTS you need to be starting with an all aluminium chassis if you want to maintain that size of car with that technology. With its steel frame you are limited by what weight you can reach.
SCOTT did strongly hint a a CRT coupe, aka CLS type car to send the E9x M3 off.

.
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      07-05-2012, 09:32 PM   #143
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How are we even comparing an e9x m3 to a 335? its not even in the same ball park. the s65 is one of the greatest engines ever built. puts down more wheel torque than a Corvette Z06. Peak torque doesn't mean anything when it comes to running on a track. check this out: http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showthread.php?t=23608

All peak torque does is spin the damn tires!
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      07-05-2012, 10:08 PM   #144
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Quote:
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Nice to see Swamp and E46 Love still banging away on the forum. Wasn't so long ago when we were speculating on the S65 redline based on a blurry spy photo.
Nice to hear from you as well. I got really bored with the forum for quite some time. But have got more interested with the new model discussion. I recall that redline discussion well! Are you still enjoying your Cayman?
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      07-05-2012, 10:14 PM   #145
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I have driven an e46 and e92 m3's both in manual however and set on sport. You cant compare throttle response with an NA m3 and an n55. Let alone a purpose built track car such as m3. But go drive an n54 car and go drive an n55 car and youll see the difference man. It wasnt a fair statement on your part. Go test a few other turbo cars and compare it. Then youll say bmw did an awesome job uskng twin scroll technology.

I dont see what you didnt like about having full 300lbs of torque at 1200rpm. Its not m3 power but it just wasnt entirely an accurate statement from you.

You didnt specify anything about an n55 335 that you drove as a track car such as you use your m3.
From your discussion with m3alabama (I very largely agree with him) it appears you don't fully appreciate the M3's throttle response. n55 is certainly better than n54 and I've driven both. However, as stated prior n55 does not even compare with s65.

I also agree with m3alabama on the usefulness of lots of torque at low rpms (not much). That is good for a lazy driving style and one who does not want to shift or fully utilize a cars capabilities.
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      07-05-2012, 11:36 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
Wow you are sensitive. If the s65 is a thing of the past and it still puts down more power at every RPM point above 3k than your car than what does that make your brand new care if a thing of the past trumps it?

My point was unless you want an M3 for the looks or status only, there is no point in buying one and driving it under 3k rpms.

If you drive it in the appropriate gear which is keeping the revs above 5500-6000k and even more preferable is keeping it at 7k, which is 2nd gear until 55 and 3rd gear until 85 than you will see that it puts down WAY more WHEEL torque than a 335. This is such an old arguement and hardly is worth commenting on.

If you do not want to shift a 335 is a good fit. So yes a person LIKE you who drives at under 3k is not a good fit for an m3 because you will extract none of its power. An engine is only as good as its powerband. If you don't use hte powerband its a waste of using the engine
No not sensative, I think we're misinterpreting the writing to a point, it's like a text it's emotionless. I think this discussion has gotten way out of context. I don't mean to be offensive, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

I think we're still comparing apples to oranges here. Cent ever compare m3 to 335. M3 >335 in every aspect except mpg. It's a purpose built machine. Yes the old M still beats the 335. Even an e46 m3 would dominate an 335 stock vs stock. F30 335 is predominantly carry over power train from the e series, save the new 8 speed auto of course.

And I personally don't think you have to live at the track to enjoy an m3. Right now a 335i is what fits my needs and my lifestyle and it's what I chose. It has to accommodate me as a dd. I never bought it for any other reason. It definetly gets run hard at times and sees above 3,000rpm .

I'd love to own an m3 but I just got rid of a race car that I don't have time for anymore. I do see one in the future for me however, and if I had to choose one I would go with an e46. Just loved the way it felt over an e92. But that's me.

For what the 335i is, it hasn't disappointed. It's just an overall awesome car.
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      07-06-2012, 03:34 AM   #147
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I have an N55 and my brother just sold his E90 M3 so I feel qualified to offer an opinion here, when you drive the M3 after driving my 135i, it does feel like it has less power in the midrange and when we race each other, I can usually pull a half to a full car length in that first gear if we start at let's say 4,000 or 5,000RPM, but if you drive the M3 like it was meant to be driven (in the lowest possible gear) it will walk past my 135i.

You have to remember that, while the M3 is rated at 295lb/ft and the 135i is rated at 300 (or 306)lb/ft, the M3 has a higher redline which means they were able to use a very short final drive ratio. The quick ratios really improve the amount of torque that actually gets to the ground so the M3 isn't actually slow in its midrange, it's just such a smooth engine that it may feel like it's lacking compared to the turbo motors in that low-midrange area.
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      07-06-2012, 10:06 AM   #148
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I have driven the 335is and the 1M and in my view, there is definitely turbo lag, especially when you nail the throttle (in any gear). The S65 and NA inline 6's have instantaneous throttle response.

As far as torque is concerned, it all depends on whether you are properly shifting in the right gear that will give you max torque. The 335is and 1M may feel like it has more torque if you're in 3rd gear going 40 mph and want to accelerate, but from a standing start, the M3's torque without any of the nannies on is very difficult to control. There was no way I was able to get anywhere near the same wheelspin on the 335is with similar launch parameters (which in my view is a disadvantage of the M3 in a drag-race situation). As several posters have mentioned previously, you need to multiply the gear and final drive ratios by the torque at any given RPM to get a total torque at the wheels effect. With the M3 it takes a lot of knowledge on how to drive the car and hit the right gear (which incidentally takes a lot of work), as this type of torque/power curve is unlike 99% of the cars out there today (the exceptions being a few engines from porsche, ferrari, and honda). With FI cars, it takes less work to get similar results...some people prefer this (especially for everyday commuting), while others like to engage with the car more and row the gears. It comes down to personal preference.

Also, this notion of the 1M having being "faster" than the M3 is based on selective data mining and is so situation dependent. In straight line acceleration tests across numerous publications, the M3 (even in manual tranny) is the quicker car (esp. beyond 60+ mph). On relatively short, twisty tracks, the size and agility are advantages for the 1M (where it is objectively quicker) however on power tracks with long straights (like Nurburgring), the M3 is the faster car.
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      07-06-2012, 01:18 PM   #149
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I had A 2009 335i for 3 years and now E90 M3. When driving the 335i (N54), you almost convince yourself there is no lag because it is a quick car...until you jump into an NA motor. Lets not kid ourselves, the lag is there but its not horrible. I actually liked that jumpy feel...lol. Hopefully though, it will be "cured" with the new M3 but only time will tell. I think they will do something to minimize as much as possible but we may get an artifical feel...just my 2 cents.

My questions are:
Is there a noticable improvement with the N55 w. respects to turbo lag
How does the new M5 turbo lag compare to N54/N55
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      07-06-2012, 01:46 PM   #150
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I'm interested and excited to see what BMW M does with the next M3/4.

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      07-07-2012, 05:20 PM   #151
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Quote:
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Nice to see Swamp and E46 Love still banging away on the forum. Wasn't so long ago when we were speculating on the S65 redline based on a blurry spy photo.
Yeah....not many of us old vets still around.......good to see you posting ruff. Nothing like an impending new model to bring out some good threads, and some old company

Cheers,
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      07-07-2012, 07:55 PM   #152
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...another problem that gets to me is when people say an engine torque peak is where it creates max thrust. arggg as its the peak engine power equals peak thrust
Well you and these folks may both be correct or incorrect. The devil is in the details on what statement is being made.

The two facts to keep in mind do seem somewhat contradictory. You must separate in gear vs. at any given speed.
  1. The maximum instantaneous acceleration (force or thrust) occurs in each gear occurs at the rpm where the engine makes peak torque. This kind of sounds like the "incorrect" statement you are referring to. If stated this way it is 100% correct.
  2. At any given speed one can maximize acceleration by maximizing power output (this is basically equivalent to saying downshift until there is nearly no rpm left to find the maximum acceleration).

(Note, there are some corrections to these principles for parasitic drive train losses and inertias, however, from both a practical and theoretical perspective they are basically true.)

Another way to see this is that it is almost always better to downshift to gear n-2 or n-2, etc. from gear n even if you are in the rpm range of peak torque and peak acceleration. Why? Common sense informs us that the lower gears are better due to much more gear multiplication much more wheel torque and hence much more acceleration.
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      07-09-2012, 05:59 AM   #153
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More and better pics:

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It seems to be clearly no sedan ... so no F80M3. And no E92 CSL/CRT!

M6 GrandCoupe or eventually F82M4 !!!
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      07-09-2012, 07:53 AM   #154
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I am going to say it is the F82M4 because I doubt a normal 4 would run on 275 rear sections, and the m6/m5 runs on a 295 rear. Now if this was the normal 4 series, which I doubt, that would just go to show that the 4 is going to be something really serious lol. I just hope to see the M4 and 4 series start to loose some camo. I am really hopeful for this car but I need it to look really bad ass I have no doubt it will perform like a monster so BMW has that part covered. Just make a mini m6 and I would be happy. Doubt it will play out like that though.
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