Opinions on prospective 2018 M3 6MT purchase

[SteveYem]

Hi All,
I am brand new to Bimmerpost, having just joined today as I am hot on the hunt for a clean F80 M3 6MT. I'd like to get the community's opinions on one prospect I am considering. It is for sale at a BMW dealer in Ohio. I am located near Philadelphia, PA, so being able to see the car in person will be difficult. I am considering buying the car sight-unseen, as it is proving very difficult to find a good condition M3 with the specs I'm after.

The details are of this car are:

2018
6MT with Competition and Executive packages
63650 miles
3 previous owners
Car owned in Michigan prior to being sold/traded to the current dealer in Ohio
Carfax indicates two accidents; one with minor-to-moderate damage to the front left, front, and front right, the other with minor damage and no additional details disclosed.*
Carfax shows oil change intervals at 8147/9628/6562/9434/8644/14000/7138 miles**

Based on the listing photos and walkaround videos that the sales representative sent me today, the car appears to be in excellent cosmetic shape, inside and out.

*I got in touch with an independent collision repair shop close to the BMW dealer and the owner offered to take a look at the exterior condition of the car to give me a report on whether there is any evidence of the Carfax-reported damages

** My personal preference for a car like this is to change oil at 5-7k intervals, but I understand BMW recommends 10k intervals. Should I be worried about the intervals listed above, in particular the 14000 mile one?


Overall, this car has the specs that I want (6MT, competition pkg, executive pkg), and the mileage is ok (not great) for the model year, but the Carfax report has me a bit leery. I'm curious to know what the consensus is here.....worth pursuing this one, or head for ze hills and don't look back?
Is there anything in particular I should be looking for on one of these cars to know whether it's in good working order?

Thanks in advance!

[Monkey Throttle]

The problem with buying a car with damage repair is ultimately someone pays the price for that jaded history. The dealership is trying to sell the car at retail value and is likely not taking into account the damage history. The owners might have gotten diminished value checks because a damaged car is not worth the same as an undamaged car.

In conclusion, unless you are getting $5k - $15k off of market value, I would pass on it, especially sight unseen.
There are plenty of unscathed M3's that pop up without accident damage. You just have to be patient.
Not to say you can't buy a car with accident damage but the price should be reflective of it and I can almost promise you, a dealership is not factoring that into their pricing. - And when you go to sell it, you will be the one taking the hit.

[SteveYem]

Originally Posted by Monkey Throttle

The problem with buying a car with damage repair is ultimately someone pays the price for that jaded history. The dealership is trying to sell the car at retail value and is likely not taking into account the damage history. The owners might have gotten diminished value checks because a damaged car is not worth the same as an undamaged car.

In conclusion, unless you are getting $5k - $15k off of market value, I would pass on it, especially sight unseen.
There are plenty of unscathed M3's that pop up without accident damage. You just have to be patient.
Not to say you can't buy a car with accident damage but the price should be reflective of it and I can almost promise you, a dealership is not factoring that into their pricing. - And when you go to sell it, you will be the one taking the hit.

I appreciate your input. The dealer's listing price is in line with the Edmunds suggested retail price for this car / options in 'Clean' condition, so I agree that I would need to get it for a significant discount to offset my future prospective loss when selling the car with (hopefully only) 2 accidents on the history report.

Would you be concerned with that 14000 mile oil change interval?

[agentrnge]

Its possible/hopeful that the owner during that interval did their own OC and it would not be recorded anywhere.. Impossible to know. If its 14k miles in a year, its less worrisome than if its 14k miles over 2 years ( but then more likely there was a DIY in between ). 100% unknowns. Sorry. ( Every OC on my car since 2019 was DIY, so no records other than my own paper notes and OBC reset history if that can be read ).

+1 car should be discounted pretty far below an equivalent accident free car.

Good luck with the search, and dont get impatient. Get the right car, especially if your are going to hang on to it for a while.

[Monkey Throttle]

I wouldn't stress about a car not having a noted oil change for 14000 miles.
A lot of people realize very quickly there is no reason to take your car to BMW for an oil change when it's 2x to 3x the price of a reputable performance shop.
Not all mechanics report to Carfax the way manufacturers do.

I personally never understood why people take their M cars to BMW for oil change. Their prices are absurd. An oil change should not be $800.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Monkey Throttle

I wouldn't stress about a car not having a noted oil change for 14000 miles.
A lot of people realize very quickly there is no reason to take your car to BMW for an oil change when it's 2x to 3x the price of a reputable performance shop.
Not all mechanics report to Carfax the way manufacturers do.

I personally never understood why people take their M cars to BMW for oil change. Their prices are absurd. An oil change should not be $800.

You do when your brother-in-law is a BMW master tech

OP - I would not waste anymore time on a single 14k OCI. Top synthetic oils can still provide excellent protection at 14k miles as long as the car was driven enough each time to burn off any moisture. I’d be more concerned about the two accidents. Damaging the front from full left to full right is likely not a minor accident, and as Monkey Throttle stated, the sales price better account for the damage from 2x accidents.

[SteveYem]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

You do when your brother-in-law is a BMW master tech

OP - I would not waste anymore time on a single 14k OCI. Top synthetic oils can still provide excellent protection at 14k miles as long as the car was driven enough each time to burn off any moisture. I’d be more concerned about the two accidents. Damaging the front from full left to full right is likely not a minor accident, and as Monkey Throttle stated, the sales price better account for the damage from 2x accidents.

Good point- it was just one 14k mile interval. Not ideal but maybe not a killer.

The dealer said that I am free to to take the car to a local shop of my choosing to have a pre-purchase inspection done, but I just don’t know how much a good mechanic would find if the front end had been well crunched but stitched back together well.
For what it’s worth, according to the Carfax report, the minor-to-moderate damage was reported March 1, 2019, and then the car was inspected on March 26, 2019. I dont know whether the March 1 date is the date of the collision or the date that the body shop reported it, but my thought is that it took less than a month to fix the car so….yeah, I don’t know. Maybe a shop could fix some pretty bad damage within that timeframe. Sure does seem like a straight-on collision if the front left, front right and front were all damaged in one event.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by SteveYem

Good point- it was just one 14k mile interval. Not ideal but maybe not a killer.

The dealer said that I am free to to take the car to a local shop of my choosing to have a pre-purchase inspection done, but I just don’t know how much a good mechanic would find if the front end had been well crunched but stitched back together well.
For what it’s worth, according to the Carfax report, the minor-to-moderate damage was reported March 1, 2019, and then the car was inspected on March 26, 2019. I dont know whether the March 1 date is the date of the collision or the date that the body shop reported it, but my thought is that it took less than a month to fix the car so….yeah, I don’t know. Maybe a shop could fix some pretty bad damage within that timeframe. Sure does seem like a straight-on collision if the front left, front right and front were all damaged in one event.

I suppose ~25 days is sufficient to assess the damage, order replacement parts, reassemble & repaint, and finalize repair IF the body shop is not too busy and/or not a high-end collision repair facility. In my area, it can take months just to get your car into the repair que but the results are well worth it. PPI would at least show if it was a great (no overspray or other signs of post-existing damage) or poor repair (massive overspray, things not reconnected and/or aligned properly such as PDC, collision warning system, etc. if the car has these options). Furthermore, you’ll get an independent assessment of wear items such as brake pads, brake rotors and tire tread depth as well as another assessment of exterior and interior condition. I personally couldn’t buy a car sight unseen because minor imperfections drive me crazy but quite a few people do it all the time so it clearly works.

[SteveYem]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I suppose ~25 days is sufficient to assess the damage, order replacement parts, reassemble & repaint, and finalize repair IF the body shop is not too busy and/or not a high-end collision repair facility. In my area, it can take months just to get your car into the repair que but the results are well worth it. PPI would at least show if it was a great (no overspray or other signs of post-existing damage) or poor repair (massive overspray, things not reconnected and/or aligned properly such as PDC, collision warning system, etc. if the car has these options). Furthermore, you’ll get an independent assessment of wear items such as brake pads, brake rotors and tire tread depth as well as another assessment of exterior and interior condition. I personally couldn’t buy a car sight unseen because minor imperfections drive me crazy but quite a few people do it all the time so it clearly works.

Good news is that it has brand new tires (Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 4) and new brake pads and rotors. I also got in touch with the owner of a collision shop near this BMW dealer and he offered to go see the car and assess the quality of the exterior paint all around. Finally, the dealer also confirmed that I am welcome to take the car for PPI to a nearby shop off my choosing before purchasing. So, it doesn’t seem that they are trying to hide anything, but even so I agree that the price is too high considering the accident reports.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by SteveYem

Good news is that it has brand new tires (Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 4) and new brake pads and rotors. I also got in touch with the owner of a collision shop near this BMW dealer and he offered to go see the car and assess the quality of the exterior paint all around. Finally, the dealer also confirmed that I am welcome to take the car for PPI to a nearby shop off my choosing before purchasing. So, it doesn’t seem that they are trying to hide anything, but even so I agree that the price is too high considering the accident reports.

That’s great. Between a collision expert looking the car over + a repair shop PPI, it sounds like you’re covered! Any idea if they used oem rotors and pads or aftermarket rotors and pads? Aftermarket doesn’t mean it’s bad. SHW makes the oem rotors with the M logo but SHW sells OE rotors at a nice discounted price without the M logo. Identical rotors except for one having a M logo.

[SteveYem]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

That’s great. Between a collision expert looking the car over + a repair shop PPI, it sounds like you’re covered! Any idea if they used oem rotors and pads or aftermarket rotors and pads? Aftermarket doesn’t mean it’s bad. SHW makes the oem rotors with the M logo but SHW sells OE rotors at a nice discounted price without the M logo. Identical rotors except for one having a M logo.

I don’t know; I would presume they used OEM parts since they are a BMW dealership, but that’s a good question for me to ask. Where on the rotor would the M logo be?

[N1rve]

Originally Posted by SteveYem

I don’t know; I would presume they used OEM parts since they are a BMW dealership, but that’s a good question for me to ask. Where on the rotor would the M logo be?

The M Logo would be on the hat. It’s something very obvious and can be seen through the wheel.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw-brake-disc-ventilated-left-34112284809

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by SteveYem

I don’t know; I would presume they used OEM parts since they are a BMW dealership, but that’s a good question for me to ask. Where on the rotor would the M logo be?

It’s on the tapered face of the brake rotor aluminum hat. The tapered face is what transitions from the wheel mounting face to the steel pins that attach the rotor ring to the aluminum hat.

That’s likely true but because it’s not a certified BMW, I could see some dealerships using less expensive parts on the car to maximize profit. You’ll know right away if stock pads were used because your wheels will be covered in brake dust after only a 20-25 mile drive! If the dealership also was responsible for installing new tires, installing MPSAS tires, instead of MPSS, would save them a decent amount to help maximize profit.

[SteveYem]

Originally Posted by N1rve

The M Logo would [IMG][/IMG]be on the hat. It’s something very obvious and can be seen through the wheel.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...ft-34112284809

Ah, ok. I have one photo from the dealer where it looks like there is a raised feature on the hat, although it’s mostly obscured by the wheel spoke:



I guess the car has been sitting outside in the rain for a while as well.

[SteveYem]

Alright - I found another prospect. This one is 2018 6MT, competition and executive packages, 32200 miles, appears to be super clean. Mineral gray with black interior. Perfect spec for me. The catch - the dealer is asking just over $59k which seems a bit high. The MSRP would have been something around $80k in 2018. They don't seem keen to negotiate.

I'm finding it difficult to gauge what the price "should" be. But I am also getting the feeling that this year in this spec and in clean condition is already difficult to find, and will only become more difficult, so maybe there is a premium to be paid there if I want to get into this vehicle. Curious to get your thoughts on this.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by SteveYem

Ah, ok. I have one photo from the dealer where it looks like there is a raised feature on the hat, although it’s mostly obscured by the wheel spoke:



I guess the car has been sitting outside in the rain for a while as well.

They’re definitely OE brake rotors. I can’t see the ///M logo so they are either BMW oem (manufactured by SHW) or oe (SHW identical rotors w/out ///M logo). You’re good either way.

Yes, this car hasn’t been driven in quite some time!

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by SteveYem

Alright - I found another prospect. This one is 2018 6MT, competition and executive packages, 32200 miles, appears to be super clean. Mineral gray with black interior. Perfect spec for me. The catch - the dealer is asking just over $59k which seems a bit high. The MSRP would have been something around $80k in 2018. They don't seem keen to negotiate.

I'm finding it difficult to gauge what the price "should" be. But I am also getting the feeling that this year in this spec and in clean condition is already difficult to find, and will only become more difficult, so maybe there is a premium to be paid there if I want to get into this vehicle. Curious to get your thoughts on this.

Price is on the high side. We’re past the peak of the Covid bubble and pricing are dropping. However, there are plenty of dealers still trying to get Covid prices for their cars.

I’d say this car is realistically ~$54k +/- $1.5k

Have you checked the car for sale forum?

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=625

[SteveYem]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Price is on the high side. We’re past the peak of the Covid bubble and pricing are dropping. However, there are plenty of dealers still trying to get Covid prices for their cars.

I’d say this car is realistically ~$54k +/- $1.5k

Have you checked the car for sale forum?

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=625

OK, that was my feeling as well, and I thank you for the sanity check.
I've scoured the classifieds here, as well as Autotrader/Cars/Carfax/ various BMW dealer websites. There are plenty of cars with DCT to be had, as well as a handful of 2015/2016 6MTs in OK to good condition, but I'm really looking for a 2018 with competition and executive packages. I know, I've narrowed my prospects to a very small pool.

Update on the originally mentioned car: The local collision shop owner is going to visit the dealer shortly this afternoon to take a look at the exterior condition of the car, especially scrutinizing the front end which was involved in the minor-to-moderate damage reported on Carfax. The sales rep at BMW was amenable (maybe reluctantly so!) to this. It's a bright, sunny day in Toledo, OH, so he should be able to get a good look at whether the body work and paint matching was done properly.

I also asked the sales rep whether he could dig any deeper into the car's history to figure out exactly what was involved in that accident event. I don't expect he'll find anything, but he said he would consult with his colleague who took the car in on trade to see if there was any more detailed information to be had.

Finally, I ran the VIN of both aforementioned cars through the used car value thing on the Carfax website, and for retail values in excellent condition it returned $49k for the one with two accidents and 63k miles, while it returned $57k for the one with one minor accident and 32k miles. Both are 2018 6MT with competition package and executive package.

EDIT: Update - I'm no longer pursuing that lower mileage one. The dealer won't come down at all on price, and the dealer has a rash of 1-star reviews which are by and large tied to buyers not receiving their car titles within the legally allowed 40 days by the state of Ohio. I learned also that this dealer finances all of their inventory with a 'floor plan' line of credit, so their bank has the titles to the vehicles. I'd rather deal with either a legit business (like a BMW dealer), or a personal seller with title in hand. Probably just saved myself thousands of dollars and weeks of headaches by walking away from that one. Too bad, though....the car was perfectly spec'd.

[Yuille36]

Going back to last year, I was looking for an F80 M3 for about 4 months. When I came across a few that I liked in North Jersey and Staten Island, all were over priced and they wanted to charge me $5000 for a PPI. When I challenge the dealer about his overly inflated PPI, he said that everybody pay it.....What! And that is when, I told him where he can shove his PPI.
Then I happened to come across a beautiful 2017 mineral white metallic F80 M3 on Vroom, and immediately purchased it. The car had a lot of cosmetic modes done to it already, and I added a few more after the purchase. But the best part was that the 2017 M3 had only 10,237 miles on it. Yes, that right 10,237 miles on a 7 year old M3, that was incredible. I verified the mileage with the Carfax and Carly, and all the computers read the same mileage, no mileage tampering. Out the door with my down payment was $49,xxx So, there are cars out there if you look hard enough, and that are unmodified meaning engine mods.

Here are a few then and now pics. I did a complete service overhaul, all fluids changed, new pads and rotors, brake lines, filters etc. I'd lowered the car, added carbon seat backs, oil catch can, oil thermostat, oil cooler skid plate, carbon engine cover, Alcantara steering wheel w/h carbon center trim etc. My major project is to remove the cloth from the headliner, sun visors, A, B, C pillars, and the rear parcel shelf, and cover it with Italian Alcantara. The quote for all this work is $3500

This is what I'm referring to.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by SteveYem

OK, that was my feeling as well, and I thank you for the sanity check.
I've scoured the classifieds here, as well as Autotrader/Cars/Carfax/ various BMW dealer websites. There are plenty of cars with DCT to be had, as well as a handful of 2015/2016 6MTs in OK to good condition, but I'm really looking for a 2018 with competition and executive packages. I know, I've narrowed my prospects to a very small pool.

Update on the originally mentioned car: The local collision shop owner is going to visit the dealer shortly this afternoon to take a look at the exterior condition of the car, especially scrutinizing the front end which was involved in the minor-to-moderate damage reported on Carfax. The sales rep at BMW was amenable (maybe reluctantly so!) to this. It's a bright, sunny day in Toledo, OH, so he should be able to get a good look at whether the body work and paint matching was done properly.

I also asked the sales rep whether he could dig any deeper into the car's history to figure out exactly what was involved in that accident event. I don't expect he'll find anything, but he said he would consult with his colleague who took the car in on trade to see if there was any more detailed information to be had.

Finally, I ran the VIN of both aforementioned cars through the used car value thing on the Carfax website, and for retail values in excellent condition it returned $49k for the one with two accidents and 63k miles, while it returned $57k for the one with one minor accident and 32k miles. Both are 2018 6MT with competition package and executive package.

EDIT: Update - I'm no longer pursuing that lower mileage one. The dealer won't come down at all on price, and the dealer has a rash of 1-star reviews which are by and large tied to buyers not receiving their car titles within the legally allowed 40 days by the state of Ohio. I learned also that this dealer finances all of their inventory with a 'floor plan' line of credit, so their bank has the titles to the vehicles. I'd rather deal with either a legit business (like a BMW dealer), or a personal seller with title in hand. Probably just saved myself thousands of dollars and weeks of headaches by walking away from that one. Too bad, though....the car was perfectly spec'd.

This is how a majority of car dealers run their business and is absolutely normal. Even franchised dealers like BMW do this as well.

[M3SQRD]

alex2364 is correct. This is done by the majority of used car dealerships. It gives them the ability to buy a car by “charging” it similar to a credit card. They’d have very few cars on their lot if they had to pay for 100% of the auction/trade value of each car.

[SteveYem]

I had a nice conversation with the local collision shop owner who was kind enough to do a detailed walk-around inspection of the M3 originally discussed here. He identified a few rock chips in the leading edges of the hood and fenders, as well as a few light scratches/scuffs around the car which he felt could all be buffed out. He noticed road rash / pitting of the headlight lens covers which he said was befitting of a 2018 car with 63k miles. He remarked that the front bumper cover was flawless. He also said that he saw no evidence of paint blending between panels and no mismatching of color. He remarked that he "would be very happy if this car was delivered to him on a flatbed".

Looking again at the Carfax history, I noticed that the 'minor to moderate' damage event occurred while the car was on lease. I'm wondering if that means BMW would have required the lessee to have the car repaired at a BMW certified shop, guaranteeing use of OEM parts and (I would hope) a certain standard of repair work quality?

That said, I'm trying to piece together why/how the front bumper condition is flawless while there is minor road rash on the hood, fenders and headlight covers. My first thought was that the 'minor to moderate' damage was simply a replacement of the front bumper cover, hence it looks new compared to the surrounding front-facing bits, but that was in 2019 and over 53k miles ago (in Michigan) so I can't really believe that's the case. Not sure where to go from here.