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      05-30-2013, 06:29 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I've never driven one (sadly pulled out of Audi driving experience) but I'd think a prime selling point is the sound of the V10.
Likely yes. But, as we've seen in other cases, that does not necessarily mean the car is safe from the industry trend toward turbocharged engines.

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Isn't the current biturbo V8 in the S6/S7/S8/RS7 a better performer?
Better than the naturally aspirated V10 you mean? On paper the higher output V8 such as found in the upcoming RS6 and RS7 is roughly equivalent to the V10 in terms of power. I'm not sure which one is lighter. I would bet that the V8 is significantly cheaper to produce if for no other reason than it is the higher volume offering of the two.

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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Do we know if the next Gallardo gets a FI V8 or a NA V10? If the Gallardo keeps V10, R8 might very well keep that too.
Still unknown.

And even if the R8 goes FI, I would tend to doubt that we'll see, just for example, a ~475hp V6 offered along with a ~575hp V8. It seems to me that they would offer only the V8 instead. I don't know how well a 6 cylinder in a car like this would do in the marketplace. Perhaps they could have a 500hp V8 "entry level" model and a 600hp V8 model at the high end.

I guess we are off topic a bit, but things are set to get interesting from an engine perspective. Or, depending on your point of view, I suppose you could say that things are about to become utterly disinteresting given that soon the big three German automakers will each have a 2L turbo I4, 3L turbo 6 cylinder, ~4L turbo V8, and really very little else. Then again, Porsche still has the H6 and of course the higher output versions of all of these engine are really pushing the envelope.
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      05-31-2013, 12:27 AM   #46
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And don't forget that Porsche is working on a new smaller sedan. Hopefully they will follow the 911,Panamera and Cayenne lineups with a racy GT version fitted with a high revving sweet sounding NA engine complemented with a monster power turbo S engine as top dog.
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      05-31-2013, 03:54 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Still unknown.

And even if the R8 goes FI, I would tend to doubt that we'll see, just for example, a ~475hp V6 offered along with a ~575hp V8. It seems to me that they would offer only the V8 instead. I don't know how well a 6 cylinder in a car like this would do in the marketplace. Perhaps they could have a 500hp V8 "entry level" model and a 600hp V8 model at the high end.

I guess we are off topic a bit, but things are set to get interesting from an engine perspective. Or, depending on your point of view, I suppose you could say that things are about to become utterly disinteresting given that soon the big three German automakers will each have a 2L turbo I4, 3L turbo 6 cylinder, ~4L turbo V8, and really very little else. Then again, Porsche still has the H6 and of course the higher output versions of all of these engine are really pushing the envelope.
Utterly disinteresting from an engineers perspective, but very good from a customers and business perspective. The goal is to have one base, and four engines, 1.5l I3, 2.0l I4, 3.0l I6 and 4.0l V8. Do not forget the already available 3.0l V6 Turbo by VAG. I have no exact data to compare the 3.0l V6 Compressor and the 3.0l V6 Turbo, but I'm sure they are related. VAG can permit itsself to have an aditional 3.0 V6 so as Mercedes. BMW stays true to its heritage and can further reduce costs, so win/win. If the R8 gets FI engines, I'd expect it to get the 4.0 TFSI and 3.0 TFSI performance versions.

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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
And don't forget that Porsche is working on a new smaller sedan. Hopefully they will follow the 911,Panamera and Cayenne lineups with a racy GT version fitted with a high revving sweet sounding NA engine complemented with a monster power turbo S engine as top dog.
That will not be so. The Pajun is a 5 Series rival. In the near future Porsche will have no more NA except on the 911 GT3. The Cayman/Boxster will get turbocharged Boxer 4 engines, and so the normal 911. That is why the debate/deiscussion regarding the "Turbo" badge, as almost all normal Porsches will be turbocharged. The other engines will be 3.0l V6 and 4.0l V8, all turbocharged. That is not what Porsche wants, but VW wants that. Another considerable change is that the next generation 911 will (with very high certainty) have no more third pedal. Only Boxster/Cayman will.
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      05-31-2013, 08:23 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Do not forget the already available 3.0l V6 Turbo by VAG. I have no exact data to compare the 3.0l V6 Compressor and the 3.0l V6 Turbo, but I'm sure they are related. VAG can permit itsself to have an aditional 3.0 V6 so as Mercedes.
Didn't realize VAG had a 3.0T, I know they have a supercharged 3.0 V6 but not turbo.

My understanding is that a lot of this turbocharging is really driven by cafe and hiking gas prices. I think there's a little bit of "juking the stats" (wire reference ) going on where EPA numbers are pretty generous given they test the cars at 1.5k RPM without any boost (Ford looks to be the worst offender). Whether or not FI engine's allow you to have your cake and eat it too is probably an interesting debate, but BMW seems to be getting fantastic results with the N55 from an efficiency point in addition to a wide power band. I'm guessing when you buy an executive luxury sports sedan like a panamera, S8 or M5...you really want the car to be responsive across the entire RPM band so you can have immediate power without having to downshift to 3rd on the highway.

But for the R8 or Lambo, I would guess they sell in such low volume that the affect on your cafe fleet requirements will be a drop in the bucket. Not to mention the people buying these cars don't care about fuel economy when they'll be driving them 5k miles a year. Only consideration I suppose is a possible rising gas guzzler tax? BMW on the other hand sells a good amount of ///M cars so efficiency is still important for meeting fleet requirements - I think there are a lot of people who would buy an M3 now if it wasn't for the 15MPG or whatever people are getting (and gas guzzler tax).
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      05-31-2013, 08:36 AM   #49
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Utterly disinteresting from an engineers perspective, but very good from a customers and business perspective. The goal is to have one base, and four engines, 1.5l I3, 2.0l I4, 3.0l I6 and 4.0l V8.
That's BMW's plan, yes.

But I don't know if the V8 is slated to join in there or not. It would imply major changes - from the current 98mm bore center (used in every BMW V8 of the modern era, and shared with the N74 V12) - to the 91mm bore center used by the inline family. And it would also of course mean a switch from the roughly square bore of the current N63Tu/S63Tu to the under-square bore of the inline engines. So we'll see.

I am not sure about the level of shared architecture between all of the turbocharged engines VAG and Mercedes have now and plan to introduce in the near future. I don't think they are as far along as BMW. I do know the new Mercedes M177 V8 will have a lot in common with the M133 I4 (itself derived from the M274). However, the new 3.0L turbocharged V6 for example is a relative of the M276 3.5L, and probably has very different bore spacing as compared to the I4 and upcoming V8.

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Do not forget the already available 3.0l V6 Turbo by VAG.
You mean the one in the Panamera, right? Like I said earlier, I think that it is likely to pick up the torch from the current supercharged V6. It only makes sense. It makes 420hp in current form so it could easily be detuned down to the 300hp mark and anywhere in between as necessary for the specific application (A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q7, S4, S5, SQ4, SQ5), and higher too when needed (RS4, RS5, RSQ4, RSQ5). Not to mention Cayenne, Macan, Panamera, "Pacan" (Bacon?).

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I have no exact data to compare the 3.0l V6 Compressor and the 3.0l V6 Turbo, but I'm sure they are related. VAG can permit itsself to have an aditional 3.0 V6 so as Mercedes. BMW stays true to its heritage and can further reduce costs, so win/win.
I think that, ultimately, VAG and Mercedes will consolidate to a single V6 each to minimize costs. VAG, however, will have the 2.5L I5 turbo as well. There is also the possibility of a production version of the 3L VR6 turbo as found in the CrossBlue concept and, more recently, the Vision GTI. But they may instead favor the I5 instead, again, to minimize costs. That remains to be seen.

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If the R8 gets FI engines, I'd expect it to get the 4.0 TFSI and 3.0 TFSI performance versions.
It is possible. I am still a bit skeptical that they will put a V6 in the R8. Tough to call.

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That will not be so. The Pajun is a 5 Series rival. In the near future Porsche will have no more NA except on the 911 GT3.
I think he is talking about the naturally aspirated 4.8L V8 hanging around for the Cayenne and Panamera GTS models. But its true that we don't know how long that will last. It seems likely to go away, and I don't think they would offer a naturally aspirated version of the new 4.0L V8 to compensate (100+ hp/L would make for a bad pairing in such large vehicles).
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      05-31-2013, 08:58 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
My understanding is that a lot of this turbocharging is really driven by cafe and hiking gas prices. I think there's a little bit of "juking the stats" (wire reference ) going on where EPA numbers are pretty generous given they test the cars at 1.5k RPM without any boost (Ford looks to be the worst offender).
That's it exactly. Turbocharged engines are simply cheaper to build with the goal of testing well when it come to the EPA. There are other reasons why turbocharging is good, but this one is what is driving the industry trends.

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But for the R8 or Lambo, I would guess they sell in such low volume that the affect on your cafe fleet requirements will be a drop in the bucket.
It is the low volume that makes their bespoken engines so utterly expensive. This provides some motivation to bring them into the collective, so to speak, as far as drivetrain goes. Sure, these cars also have a much higher-than-average transaction price, but to the extent you can share parts with the rest of the product lineup, it still makes for a better business case.
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      05-31-2013, 09:01 AM   #51
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"I think he is talking about the naturally aspirated 4.8L V8 hanging around for the Cayenne and Panamera GTS models."

Correct, with NA GT model I meant the Cayenne GTS, Panny GTS and 911 GT3. The NA engine is essential to these models, without it they can scrap those. Now, they might do that but I don't see that being necessary for Porsche but we'll see, they did put EPS, 4WS and DCT only on the GT3 already so nothing is sacret.

Personally I prefer a NA engine but I also like FI engines so I'll be fine with whichever but I don't like the current crop of EPS and hope for major improvements since it's here to stay.

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      05-31-2013, 09:40 AM   #52
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I will laught if some buy 4cyl. Porsche 911(yes only rumors, big rumors because they just launch new 991 series), but it not make any sense that 911 owners will accept to downgrade NA legendary boxer six cylinder to 4cyl turbo, or are there some recearch information?.

Remember that when Co2 emissions are higher than Euro norms, still car will not been banned on Eu-markets, manufacturer get only penalty and it cost, but all cost will pay car buyer, so higher emissions, higher price. Somewhere there will be balance point when car sell and emissions are low.

I think oil will not never ending(someone rumors that it end year 2000, someone 1990....), technology will make possible to find and pump oil deeper and deeper. I hope so.
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      05-31-2013, 12:35 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
I will laught if some buy 4cyl. Porsche 911(yes only rumors, big rumors because they just launch new 991 series), but it not make any sense that 911 owners will accept to downgrade NA legendary boxer six cylinder to 4cyl turbo, or are there some recearch information?.

Remember that when Co2 emissions are higher than Euro norms, still car will not been banned on Eu-markets, manufacturer get only penalty and it cost, but all cost will pay car buyer, so higher emissions, higher price. Somewhere there will be balance point when car sell and emissions are low.

I think oil will not never ending(someone rumors that it end year 2000, someone 1990....), technology will make possible to find and pump oil deeper and deeper. I hope so.
Problem for oil is......China will have something like 30 million new cars in use within the next 5 years, all additional to current numbers. India will also have vast numbers of additional cars. We can only hope that there is a breakthrough in renewable fuel sources, Ethanol, etc.

A 4 cylinder Porsche? Flat 4 like a Subaru? or back to VW engines like 912?
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      05-31-2013, 01:15 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Problem for oil is......China will have something like 30 million new cars in use within the next 5 years, all additional to current numbers. India will also have vast numbers of additional cars. We can only hope that there is a breakthrough in renewable fuel sources, Ethanol, etc.

A 4 cylinder Porsche? Flat 4 like a Subaru? or back to VW engines like 912?
Yep oil/petrol users will rise fast, you are right, but as you said renewable fuels might help and electric vehicles. Refuel E85 is good example, more power and more economical, all win .

I mean flat boxer four. Good note that early 911, model 912 have four cylinder engine.
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      05-31-2013, 01:26 PM   #55
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No doubt the number of vehicles will rise but M cars, Porsches, RS cars etc has never been more than a drop in the ocean of mass market cars and that's how it will remain. Car enthusiasts need to make their voice heard so that manufacturers and politicans allow for enthusiasts cars to remain enthusiasts cars since they will make no measurable contribution to the local and world total emissions and fuel consumption wether they have HPS, EPS, FI, NA, V10s or electric engines. Cars have always been one of the things that evokes passion and dreams for many. I hope they don't kill that for no reason.
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      05-31-2013, 02:30 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It is the low volume that makes their bespoken engines so utterly expensive. This provides some motivation to bring them into the collective, so to speak, as far as drivetrain goes. Sure, these cars also have a much higher-than-average transaction price, but to the extent you can share parts with the rest of the product lineup, it still makes for a better business case.
I wonder though how much economies of scale really factor into it when we're talking about such a "halo" or niche product. Seems like business cases might not be as simple as whether or not they make money, but rather how it affects the brand image overall.

A good example would be the C7 corvette, which I'm sure was pretty difficult to keep afloat during GM's bankruptcy ordeal - I'm assuming that car in particular does not make them a lot of money (hell, they sell those for like 60k with performance that rival high end P's). Although maybe this example is ill-posed, since they use the engines/technologies on so many different vehicles. But the fact still stands that this car is probably more important to the image of GM rather than strictly C7 sales numbers.
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      05-31-2013, 02:42 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
No doubt the number of vehicles will rise but M cars, Porsches, RS cars etc has never been more than a drop in the ocean of mass market cars and that's how it will remain. Car enthusiasts need to make their voice heard so that manufacturers and politicans allow for enthusiasts cars to remain enthusiasts cars since they will make no measurable contribution to the local and world total emissions and fuel consumption wether they have HPS, EPS, FI, NA, V10s or electric engines. Cars have always been one of the things that evokes passion and dreams for many. I hope they don't kill that for no reason.
Only company I see thinking like this is Tesla...which is probably why they'll fail
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      05-31-2013, 02:53 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Didn't realize VAG had a 3.0T, I know they have a supercharged 3.0 V6 but not turbo.

My understanding is that a lot of this turbocharging is really driven by cafe and hiking gas prices. I think there's a little bit of "juking the stats" (wire reference ) going on where EPA numbers are pretty generous given they test the cars at 1.5k RPM without any boost (Ford looks to be the worst offender). Whether or not FI engine's allow you to have your cake and eat it too is probably an interesting debate, but BMW seems to be getting fantastic results with the N55 from an efficiency point in addition to a wide power band. I'm guessing when you buy an executive luxury sports sedan like a panamera, S8 or M5...you really want the car to be responsive across the entire RPM band so you can have immediate power without having to downshift to 3rd on the highway.

But for the R8 or Lambo, I would guess they sell in such low volume that the affect on your cafe fleet requirements will be a drop in the bucket. Not to mention the people buying these cars don't care about fuel economy when they'll be driving them 5k miles a year. Only consideration I suppose is a possible rising gas guzzler tax? BMW on the other hand sells a good amount of ///M cars so efficiency is still important for meeting fleet requirements - I think there are a lot of people who would buy an M3 now if it wasn't for the 15MPG or whatever people are getting (and gas guzzler tax).
Isn't the 3.0T supercharged, though? In the A6/Q5/Q7, the 3.0T is supercharged. the T is misleading, it isn't turbocharged.
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      05-31-2013, 05:15 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I wonder though how much economies of scale really factor into it when we're talking about such a "halo" or niche product. Seems like business cases might not be as simple as whether or not they make money, but rather how it affects the brand image overall.

A good example would be the C7 corvette, which I'm sure was pretty difficult to keep afloat during GM's bankruptcy ordeal - I'm assuming that car in particular does not make them a lot of money (hell, they sell those for like 60k with performance that rival high end P's). Although maybe this example is ill-posed, since they use the engines/technologies on so many different vehicles. But the fact still stands that this car is probably more important to the image of GM rather than strictly C7 sales numbers.
Good point, the Nissan GTR is a car that stands out. Nissan were nearly broke, yet they developed the GTR. Started selling at low money and have managed to up the price year on year to pretty profitable levels (assuming they weren't making a loss on the first year models). That car (with Renaults help) has seemed to rejuvenate Nissan.
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      05-31-2013, 05:18 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Didn't realize VAG had a 3.0T, I know they have a supercharged 3.0 V6 but not turbo.

My understanding is that a lot of this turbocharging is really driven by cafe and hiking gas prices. I think there's a little bit of "juking the stats" (wire reference ) going on where EPA numbers are pretty generous given they test the cars at 1.5k RPM without any boost (Ford looks to be the worst offender). Whether or not FI engine's allow you to have your cake and eat it too is probably an interesting debate, but BMW seems to be getting fantastic results with the N55 from an efficiency point in addition to a wide power band. I'm guessing when you buy an executive luxury sports sedan like a panamera, S8 or M5...you really want the car to be responsive across the entire RPM band so you can have immediate power without having to downshift to 3rd on the highway.

But for the R8 or Lambo, I would guess they sell in such low volume that the affect on your cafe fleet requirements will be a drop in the bucket. Not to mention the people buying these cars don't care about fuel economy when they'll be driving them 5k miles a year. Only consideration I suppose is a possible rising gas guzzler tax? BMW on the other hand sells a good amount of ///M cars so efficiency is still important for meeting fleet requirements - I think there are a lot of people who would buy an M3 now if it wasn't for the 15MPG or whatever people are getting (and gas guzzler tax).
I would think the Turbo craze is working well for fuel consumption and CO2 emissions....take a look at the M5/M6, gets better gas mileage than an e92 M3. Impressive indeed
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      05-31-2013, 05:49 PM   #61
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Isn't the 3.0T supercharged, though? In the A6/Q5/Q7, the 3.0T is supercharged. the T is misleading, it isn't turbocharged.
Yup, probably where marketing guys overruled with something stupid and now owners walk off the lots with "LOL" fender badges...

FWIW the engine is pretty outdated with no VVT, surprising that it has been on Wards top 10 list for so long, but that's probably more a testament to how the power delivery feels + drivetrain. Plus that award seems pretty groundless and subjective...
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      05-31-2013, 09:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
I wonder though how much economies of scale really factor into it when we're talking about such a "halo" or niche product. Seems like business cases might not be as simple as whether or not they make money, but rather how it affects the brand image overall.
Economies of scale is mass-production 101. So I would say that it figures into every single product we can buy today.

Not every product makes money, but those that don't usually don't get asked to make a curtain call. Halo cars can/do make money, and I would bet my shirt that the R8 is profitable. And if you have the opportunity to make it even more profitable, then you do it. Remember, they don't just flip a coin and choose the engine. They determine how many people will buy the car with qualities X, Y, Z, and how much that will cost. None of this is left to chance, so if they switch to FI then its because potential buyers say they want it. Though, yes, they do sometimes get it wrong (the product planners, marketers, etc.). Bad intel, I guess, or failure to spot a change in trends until it is too late.

By the way, if the Gallardo successor switches to an FI V8 (and I am not saying that I think it will, necessarily) then there is no chance - not even the tiniest remote possibility - that the R8 stays with the V10.

Quote:
Although maybe this example is ill-posed, since they use the engines/technologies on so many different vehicles.
Exactly. Your example in fact reenforces my earlier point. There is a reason why the Corvette does not use an 8500RPM V10, and that is simply because they don't put those in pickup trucks.

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But the fact still stands that this car is probably more important to the image of GM rather than strictly C7 sales numbers.
Yes, which is all the more reason to carefully build a business case which allows it to stay profitable. Same applies to the R8. And the same applies to the M3/M4 and RS4/RS5 too, which is why they will borrow engine architecture and components from their volume-selling siblings.
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      06-04-2013, 04:01 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Sure, these cars also have a much higher-than-average transaction price, but to the extent you can share parts with the rest of the product lineup, it still makes for a better business case.
Mmmhmm i agree except for the fact that most people would pay the extra premiums for these "super cars" "exotics" because well.......they are exotic?

I for one would not care much for the r8 of it had a normal engine in it........ok i lied i still would give my lefty for one but thats not the point. The fact that the engines provided in super cars are so bespoke, almost warrants the high price tag which prospective buyers have grown to accept because they know they are buying a slice of the special cake.
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      06-04-2013, 07:33 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by turbolag View Post
Isn't the 3.0T supercharged, though? In the A6/Q5/Q7, the 3.0T is supercharged. the T is misleading, it isn't turbocharged.
He was talking about the new turbo V6 which made it's debut in the revised 2014 Panamera S.

http://jalopnik.com/the-2014-porsche...-for-468106950
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      06-04-2013, 02:05 PM   #65
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Exactly. Your example in fact reenforces my earlier point. There is a reason why the Corvette does not use an 8500RPM V10, and that is simply because they don't put those in pickup trucks.



Yes, which is all the more reason to carefully build a business case which allows it to stay profitable. Same applies to the R8. And the same applies to the M3/M4 and RS4/RS5 too, which is why they will borrow engine architecture and components from their volume-selling siblings.
The Corvette also sells for a base 60k and is certainly a higher volume car than the R8. I guess my point was that they kept the Corvette in the pipeline at a time when the company was on the verge of financial implosion, the business case they made had to involve more than just projected sales. But this is just my opinion, and I'm just a guy

The R8 does share a lot with the entire Audi line-up besides the engine...aside from some packaging issues, everything from the DCT to the crown center differential to the rear active sports diff is shared with the relatively pedestrian S4. I just think for a car like this to sell for 120-200k, it needs to have that "special V10 sound/performance" that some rich dude is going to need to justify the exclusivity. I don't think this rich guy is going to care about torque or dyno figures, but rather how loud and visceral the engine is when he revs it out to red-line. But it does seem like FI technologies are good enough to make a TTV8 > V10 performance wise.

As an interesting side note, I work in active safety, and a big boss from the other side of the pond had a meeting with us lowly research engineers (I work at an OEM) and said that Audi/BMW/Merc can pretty much spend huge amounts of money on research with, as he said, "little concern for business cases" with the main goal of "being the best". I admit this is sort of different, since research can generate other revenue streams (such as licensing IP), but it does highlight that sometimes these German luxury brands are willing to take a slight hit on a niche product (relative to mass production 101) if it means that they can be the "best" in consumers eyes.
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Last edited by drob23; 06-04-2013 at 03:07 PM..
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      06-04-2013, 03:28 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
The Corvette also sells for a base 60k and is certainly a higher volume car than the R8. I guess my point was that they kept the Corvette in the pipeline at a time when the company was on the verge of financial implosion, the business case they made had to involve more than just projected sales. But this is just my opinion, and I'm just a guy

The R8 does share a lot with the entire Audi line-up besides the engine...aside from some packaging issues, everything from the DCT to the crown center differential to the rear active sports diff is shared with the relatively pedestrian S4. I just think for a car like this to sell for 120-200k, it needs to have that "special V10 sound/performance" that some rich dude is going to need to justify the exclusivity. I don't think this rich guy is going to care about torque or dyno figures, but rather how loud and visceral the engine is when he revs it out to red-line. But it does seem like FI technologies are good enough to make a TTV8 > V10 performance wise.

As an interesting side note, I work in active safety, and a big boss from the other side of the pond had a meeting with us lowly research engineers (I work at an OEM) and said that Audi/BMW/Merc can pretty much spend huge amounts of money on research with, as he said, "little concern for business cases" with the main goal of "being the best". I admit this is sort of different, since research can generate other revenue streams (such as licensing IP), but it does highlight that sometimes these German luxury brands are willing to take a slight hit on a niche product (relative to mass production 101) if it means that they can be the "best" in consumers eyes.
If I could afford a R8 GT/V10 Plus, I would buy it regardless of sharing parts with the S4.
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